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[Character] Shiba "Kurosaki" Isshin


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#81 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:43 PM

What if it wasn't Isshin that made the Shiba Clan fall? After all, he's only Kukkaku's uncle (maybe) so shouldn't the shame of the Shiba family be related to the main line, Kukkaku and Ganju's father, rather than a side branch, Isshin and Ichigo?

 

How do we know Isshin didn't represent the "main branch" with Kaien being a member of the so-called "side branch"? I actually don't like using terms like "main" and "side" branch because it sounds too much like Naruto, but if we assume Isshin is the uncle of Kukaku and Ganju (unconfirmed, but seems extremely likely), it still doesn't prove Isshin wasn't a member of the "main branch" (a term which I actually believe is irrelevant). 

 

During Soifon's recounting of her past in chapter 159, she stated that Yoruichi's actions in aiding Urahara (during TBTP) were made public, and because of what occurred, Yoruichi was removed as the leader of the 1st Division (Punishment Force) of the Onmitsukido. The Shihoin Family is still considered a Noble House as of the current timeline, even after Yoruichi assisted another Captain in allegedly defecting against Soul Society (for over 100 years, nonetheless).

 

Soifon also claimed that the Shihoin family name would surely be removed from the list of Noble Houses had it become known that Yoruichi was actively supporting the Ryoka's invasion of Seireitei, so at least we have an idea as to what kind of felony is considered consequential enough to warrant a loss of noble status. In other words, Yoruichi's aiding and abetting of Urahara and Tessai apparently wasn't heinous enough of a crime to have the Shihoin Family removed as a Noble House, yet helping the Ryoka was (at least, according to Soifon, anyway).

 

Though, abandoning your post is shameful. Especially for families who are only really famous because of their military service. 

 

Shameful, but not momentous enough to assure a forfeiture of nobility standing. Whoever was responsible for the Shiba Family losing their noble position must have done something significantly worse than abandoning their post.


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#82 Ultrafragor

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:02 PM

How do we know Isshin didn't represent the "main branch" with Kaien being a member of the so-called "side branch"? I actually don't like using terms like "main" and "side" branch because it sounds too much like Naruto, but if we assume Isshin is the uncle of Kukaku and Ganju (unconfirmed, but seems extremely likely), it still doesn't prove Isshin wasn't a member of the "main branch" (a term which I actually believe is irrelevant). 

 

 

Hmm, I guess it doesn't matter. Maybe I was thinking too much of Naruto. If there's no main branch then leadership would still end up with Kukkaku just as the oldest member of the clan.

 

Isshin and her father ind of f*cked her over. Even though what happened to her father seems to not be his own fault.

 

Father disappears(dies)+Clan is removed from noble status, but Ganju believes the shinigami were at fault. I hope this is covered in this TBTP. If Isshin is a Shiba then the impact of him leaving the clan should be enough to warrant some explanation.

 

Shameful, but not momentous enough to assure a forfeiture of nobility standing. Whoever was responsible for the Shiba Family losing their noble position must have done something significantly worse than abandoning their post.

 

Abandoning their post to knock up a Quincy? 

 

When Rukia left her post they were like "Git yo @ss back here girl"

 

 

But Kukkau knows Isshin is still alive (if he is "uncle") so it may be known that he abandoned his post, but is still alive and in hiding.


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#83 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

Hmm, I guess it doesn't matter. Maybe I was thinking too much of Naruto. If there's no main branch then leadership would still end up with Kukkaku just as the oldest member of the clan.

 
Leadership would have fallen onto Kukaku once Kaien was no longer alive (or, no one would have inherited Kaien's position), which assumes that Isshin's relevance predated Kaien's death (contrary to what I earlier thought).
 
Yoruichi's relationship to all of this is quite interesting, because she and Kukaku are considered close friends even before Yoruichi fled Soul Society for over 100 years (and presumably didn't return until Ichigo invaded Seireitei). It makes one think that Urahara and Isshin's friendship could have gone way back, possibly even prior to the TBTP-era (when Isshin was an authoritative figure in the Shiba Family, which would also establish a strong connection to Kukaku, Yoruichi, and their own friendship). I'm getting ahead of myself, though...
 

Isshin and her father ind of f*cked her over. Even though what happened to her father seems to not be his own fault.
 
Father disappears(dies)+Clan is removed from noble status, but Ganju believes the shinigami were at fault. I hope this is covered in this TBTP. If Isshin is a Shiba then the impact of him leaving the clan should be enough to warrant some explanation.

 
I expect Kubo to revisit Ganju's whole mentality on the Gotei 13/Shinigami sometime in the future, because it seemed like he was particularly angry with "the Shinigami" taking away his family's one major chance to regain nobility status (Rukia killing Kaien).

 

But Kukkau knows Isshin is still alive (if he is "uncle") so it may be known that he abandoned his post, but is still alive and in hiding.

 

Oddly enough, neither Kukaku nor Ganju mentioned anything about Ichigo's striking resemblance to Kaien when they first met him, which does imply that they've known "the truth" for quite some time (as opposed to Byakuya and Ukitake's reactions).


Edited by PlasmaWolf, 02 March 2013 - 04:17 PM.

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#84 Ultrafragor

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:35 PM


 
 (and presumably didn't return until Ichigo invaded Seireitei)

 

 Well, Yoruichi wasn't at Urahara's so where else could she have been?



Since we don't know how long she was gone it's hard to tell, but I'm sure she went to see Ukitake. Ukitake shouldn't know how to break a seal on a Shihoin artifact without Yoruichi telling him.

 

The Ukitake's weren't said to be a lower house of the Shihoin so it is very unlikely that it was prior knowledge. 



It suggests Urahara and Yoruichi set up plans to counter Aizen as soon as Rukia was taken back to Soul Society.

 

 

But we have no clue about Yoruichi's location from the time of exile until the aforementioned activities. Maybe we'll see this in this flashback too


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#85 AndrewR5D4

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:36 PM

Isshin and Ichigo both lack the Shiba family's thick lower eyelashes that Kaien's family all had... isshin must've plucked them and Ichigo never inherited the trait. :P



#86 Milareppa

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 07:20 PM

What if it wasn't Isshin that made the Shiba Clan fall? After all, he's only Kukkaku's uncle (maybe) so shouldn't the shame of the Shiba family be related to the main line, Kukkaku and Ganju's father, rather than a side branch, Isshin and Ichigo?

 

That's assuming Kuukaku and Ganju were born to the main branch of the family instead of Isshin. Isshin could easily have been the main branch. That said, the family as a whole would have shared the sin. We have to bear in mind that we don't know for certain that Isshin had a brother. He could have had a sister whose husband married into the Shiba family.

However, you're right. It doesn't have to have been Isshin who caused the Shiba clan to fall, if Isshin is a Shiba at all, that is. Yes, it's the most likely theory, but we have to remember that it's not yet confirmed. Just in case.

That said, we know from the Bootleg that Kaien and Kuukaku were definitely alive when the Shiba clan fell (we don't know if Ganju was), so it's doubtful that it occurred too far in the distant past. If it occurred before TBTP, it wouldn't have been that long before the TBTP (in the grand scheme of things), given that Kaien wasn't amazingly old, so probably wouldn't have been around for more than a couple of centuries at most.

 

Hmm, I guess it doesn't matter. Maybe I was thinking too much of Naruto. If there's no main branch then leadership would still end up with Kukkaku just as the oldest member of the clan.

 

It's a Japanese story possessing feudal overtones, so I do think it's relevant to speculate about main and side clan branches. However, while Kuukaku is the leader of her 'side' (so to speak), she seems clearly connected to whatever her uncle may be thinking about any decisions she may take, which does appear to suggest that while she feels she must be the one to make decisions in his absence, she attempting to do right by him. That suggests some degree of subordinate thinking, or at the very least, loyalty.

If Isshin is in 'exile' or persona non grata or in hiding (insert any other theory here) then he wouldn't be able to function as a head of the family. There's also the issue of him taking Masaki's name. That strongly implies he married into her family. That would forefeit him control of his natal family if he was the person who was supposed to be in control of his family because his primary purpose would now centre around representing his marital family (the Kurosaki clan) either as its head or subordinate to its head.

 

Father disappears(dies)+Clan is removed from noble status, but Ganju believes the shinigami were at fault.

 

Ganju believed that when the ryouka first met him. However, we have to remember he wasn't even told the truth about Kaien's death. How much he knew about his family history (at that particular time) is therefore debatable. He seems more in the know in this arc, however.

 

If Isshin is a Shiba then the impact of him leaving the clan should be enough to warrant some explanation.

 

One thing to bear in mind is that when Yoruichi asked Kuukaku for help invading Seireitei, Kuukaku stated that she had to help because Urahara was involved. She indicated that even if she hadn't wanted to help, she would have been obliged to help Urahara under any circumstance. That indicates one hell a debt she's in to Urahara, which begs the question of why she's so deeply in debt to Urahara. Urahara's connection to Isshin could be involved in that answer in some way.
 

When Rukia left her post they were like "Git yo @ss back here girl"
 
But Kukkau knows Isshin is still alive (if he is "uncle") so it may be known that he abandoned his post, but is still alive and in hiding.

I

f Isshin is the tenth division captain that was referenced in TBTP then his official status in Soul Society is 'dead'. That's obviously a big 'if'. However, if he is officially dead to Soul Society then he'd have good reason to be in hiding. Now, as to how many people would know he's still alive even if he was officially dead is another matter entirely.
 

Isshin and Ichigo both lack the Shiba family's thick lower eyelashes that Kaien's family all had... isshin must've plucked them and Ichigo never inherited the trait. :P

 

For all we know the three Shiba siblings didn't inherit those eyelashes from the sibling of Isshin but from the spouse of Isshin's sibling instead. In that case, Isshin wouldn't have those eyelashes at all. :)

That's ignoring the potential artistic reason: it's too obvious a clue too early on.


Edited by Milareppa, 02 March 2013 - 07:21 PM.


#87 Ultrafragor

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 07:32 PM

Didn't Shinji say a bunch of Captains had died before TBTP? 

 

His comment could have been referring to large turnover because the Captains replacing the ones that were dying weren't strong enough to take on the responsibilities of a full Captain (which is hard to believe, but w/e Kubo)


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#88 Milareppa

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:06 PM

Didn't Shinji say a bunch of Captains had died before TBTP?

 

Yes. In fact, the implication from the conversation was that there'd been a high rate of captain turnover ever since the quincy massacre a hundred years before TBTP. We know the quincy massacre devastated the quincies, but there's a hint that it destabilised the shinigami, too.


Edited by Milareppa, 02 March 2013 - 08:07 PM.


#89 Relinquisher

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:40 AM

Well it makes sense, take away the plot armor surrounding the current captains and half of them should be dead, i cant imagine the quincy extermination could have been all that different, im sure they were weaker b/c clearly there is something up with this group but it would weird if the two mortal enimes fought and one side didnt have any casualties while the other side got completely wiped out.


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#90 bliz

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:31 AM

Not sure where you got these questions from. First off how is Isshin supposed to know the abilities of someone he's never seen in action? Secondly why wouldn't he question who she is if he's never met her before? These questions seem pretty standard when meeting new people, unless I'm missing something here. 

 

If not than you are drawing to much conclusions here. 

 

Your missing the point here -

 

All Quincy's have generic ability to manipulate Reishi.

 

Isshin doesn't know how Masaki killed whatever that was.

 

Masaki says  she is a Quincy.

 

 

Do the maths............

 

If Isshin knows what Quincy are and their reishi manipulation ability (and he should seeing as Quincy have been around for a long time and had 2 major clashes with SS during the last 1000 years), then why doesn't he know how Masaki killed what ever she killed.

 

 

Thus,

 

Reason says Isshin wasn't aware of Quincys when he met Masaki.

 

 

Therefore there are contradictions.

 

How can Isshin be a captain yet unaware of Quincys, their reishi manipulation ability and the war that happened 1000 and 200 years ago? Even if Isshin was a RG, he should have been aware of Quincy seeing as current RG are.

 

 

Point is, Isshin's lack of awareness suggests Isshin has time traveled from the past to the future or from the future to the past where Quincy's are not present (either not very common or fully eradicated).


Edited by bliz, 03 March 2013 - 05:36 AM.


#91 Ultrafragor

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 06:28 AM

Your missing the point here -

 

All Quincy's have generic ability to manipulate Reishi.

 

Isshin doesn't know how Masaki killed whatever that was.

 

I think he was referring to the fact that she was an adolescent schoolgirl, not the exact technique she used to defeat the threat.


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#92 bliz

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:33 AM

I think he was referring to the fact that she was an adolescent schoolgirl, not the exact technique she used to defeat the threat.

 

Ishida is an adolescent schoolboy but that didn't stop Mayuri from recognizing he was a Quincy. It doesn't matter if Masaki was a kid, or teenager, adult etc......the fact is she is a Quincy and used a Quincy technique to kill whatever that was.

 

If Isshin is aware of Quincy ability then there would have been no reason for him to question "HOW" Masaki killed that thing. But seeing as Isshin did then the question is -

 

WHY IS ISSHIN (a captain) UNAWARE OF QUINCY'S AND THEIR ABILITIES?

 

I can understand that Isshin doesn't know Masaki by name. But Isshin's question were directed towards her ability, not her name. Her name "Masaki Kurosaki" doesn't explain how she defeated whatever that was. Masaki said she was a "Quincy" to inform Isshin why she was able to defeat that thing.

 

Seriously am I the only one who is noticing this flaw in Isshin story?


Edited by bliz, 03 March 2013 - 08:34 AM.


#93 Rashugun

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:01 AM

Ishida is an adolescent schoolboy but that didn't stop Mayuri from recognizing he was a Quincy. It doesn't matter if Masaki was a kid, or teenager, adult etc......the fact is she is a Quincy and used a Quincy technique to kill whatever that was.

 

If Isshin is aware of Quincy ability then there would have been no reason for him to question "HOW" Masaki killed that thing. But seeing as Isshin did then the question is -

 

WHY IS ISSHIN (a captain) UNAWARE OF QUINCY'S AND THEIR ABILITIES?

 

I can understand that Isshin doesn't know Masaki by name. But Isshin's question were directed towards her ability, not her name. Her name "Masaki Kurosaki" doesn't explain how she defeated whatever that was. Masaki said she was a "Quincy" to inform Isshin why she was able to defeat that thing.

 

Seriously am I the only one who is noticing this flaw in Isshin story?

That's a fair point which should make us think about it, but I wouldn't call it a flaw.

 

First. Isshin isn't Mayuri, Isshin hasn't done research on Quincies. 

Second. We don't know when did this happen. Before/after the Quincy incident? Hmm.

Third. We don't know what abilities she used there. We don't even know the extents of the Quincies' abilities.

Fourth. Let's wait and see.


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#94 HSHINJI

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

That's a fair point which should make us think about it, but I wouldn't call it a flaw.

 

First. Isshin isn't Mayuri, Isshin hasn't done research on Quincies. 

Second. We don't know when did this happen. Before/after the Quincy incident? Hmm.

Third. We don't know what abilities she used there. We don't even know the extents of the Quincies' abilities.

Fourth. Let's wait and see.

Its 50-50 the scientist angle you've gone with is pointless since he was a captain of some sort. However that situation could be due to 2 reasons; another you're a Human and Shinigami which later flipped to Shinigami and Human or Kubo is using it for dramatic effect. I think its a howler from Kubo but next chapter if it was a mistake he can correct it thus we'll probably never know even if he did mess up Isshin's dialogue.



#95 Ultrafragor

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:15 PM

Ishida is an adolescent schoolboy but that didn't stop Mayuri from recognizing he was a Quincy. It doesn't matter if Masaki was a kid, or teenager, adult etc......the fact is she is a Quincy and used a Quincy technique to kill whatever that was.

 

  1. Mayuri is a genius
  2. Did Isshin see her defeat the threat? He was collapsed on the ground. 

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#96 HSHINJI

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:22 PM

  1. Mayuri is a genius
  2. Did Isshin see her defeat the threat? He was collapsed on the ground. 

Being a genius is irrelevant, do u really think a G13 captain who didn't get his promotion within the last 50 years (and has been in the establishment longer than that) wouldn't know a Quincy? The current captains who've probably never seen a Quincy before Uryuu showed up are the following; 

 Icekid is almost definitely guaranteed , Byakuya likely, Soi fon likely, Koma likely, Zaraki possibly but his age makes it unlikely that he has not come across a Quincy.

 

Note: Mayuri specifically ran tests on Quinicies, there are current captains confirmed to have fought them in the past and they are not so called intellectual geniuses so pulling the genius card is pointless. Especially since we've got hints that Mayuri is a lot older than we initially thought.


Edited by HSHINJI, 03 March 2013 - 01:29 PM.


#97 bliz

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:39 PM

  1. Mayuri is a genius
  2. Did Isshin see her defeat the threat? He was collapsed on the ground. 

 

1. Genius IQ has nothing to do with knowing a Quincy and their ability to manipulate reishi.

 

2. Isshin wasn't KO'd



#98 Rashugun

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:44 PM

Its 50-50 the scientist angle you've gone with is pointless since he was a captain of some sort. However that situation could be due to 2 reasons; another you're a Human and Shinigami which later flipped to Shinigami and Human or Kubo is using it for dramatic effect. I think its a howler from Kubo but next chapter if it was a mistake he can correct it thus we'll probably never know even if he did mess up Isshin's dialogue.

FIrst sentence: So what if he was a Captain, we don't know at all how much Captain knew, and we don't even know when this happened. I repeat, so what if he's a captain.

 

After that: I totally don't understand anything you said and the fault isn't in me.


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#99 Ultrafragor

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:56 PM

1. Genius IQ has nothing to do with knowing a Quincy and their ability to manipulate reishi.

 

2. Isshin wasn't KO'd

 

After Urahara, Aizen, and Mayuri, Szayel is the next most intelligent character. He saw Uryu shoot down one of his minions, yet did not automatically identify Uryu as a Quincy. It's possible to misidentify them if you have no previous personal experience with Quincy reiatsu and techniques. We don't know that Isshin had any previous experience.

 

It still makes no sense for him to ask how if he just watched her do it. The appropriate question would be what power she used. It makes more sense that he's just flirting. Especially since we know he later shoot her full of super babies.


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#100 bliz

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:34 PM

After Urahara, Aizen, and Mayuri, Szayel is the next most intelligent character. He saw Uryu shoot down one of his minions, yet did not automatically identify Uryu as a Quincy. It's possible to misidentify them if you have no previous personal experience with Quincy reiatsu and techniques. We don't know that Isshin had any previous experience.

 

It still makes no sense for him to ask how if he just watched her do it. The appropriate question would be what power she used. It makes more sense that he's just flirting. Especially since we know he later shoot her full of super babies.

 

Seriously I don't by the idea Isshin was a captain yet clueless about Quincy and their abilities. Isshin has more than often displayed higher level information even compared to some captains.

 

1. He told use in the past Dangai was used as a prison yet no one mentioned that.

2. He told us about Jinzen i.e the reason for the method and how long it takes to master it.

3. He has knowledge of Royal Guards but.......specially regarding Oetsu (who is confirmed to be 2100+).

 

Isshin has always shown he is knowledgeable in regards to SS stuff and I don't by it for once second he didn't know about Quincy and their abilities (unless he has time-traveled).

 

For now I'll take this event with a pinch of salt and wait for next weeks chapter. If Isshin still displays ignorance of Quincy and their abilities next chapter then the real question will be -

 

WHO IS ISSHIN REALLY?

 

 

FIrst sentence: So what if he was a Captain, we don't know at all how much Captain knew, and we don't even know when this happened. I repeat, so what if he's a captain.

 

Well,

 

How does one become a captain yet remain ignorant of past wars shinigami's had?

 

And going by Masaki's cloths, their meeting has to be more recent. Therefore it would be after the war 200 years ago. 

 

After that: I totally don't understand anything you said and the fault isn't in me.

 

HE/SHE was trying to say Tite could end up changing the dialogues next week like he did before with Aizen saying " Shinigami and ...........". 


Edited by bliz, 03 March 2013 - 02:41 PM.