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Downtime, Donations, and Onemanga.com


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#21 Deathkingdome

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:05 PM

Greg, why don´t you allow adverts on top of the page? It won´t be intrusive and it will pay the bills and then some. I´m willing to donate too, i´m just suggesting stuff. 

And Greg, you are doing a great job. 



#22 d1r31

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:55 PM

I liked the idea of donors getting some kind of medal icon. [EDIT: NO MEDALS! See next post.]

I liked the idea of allowing ads.

I appreciate Greg's efforts to provide a forum where we can continue to discuss various topics, but I don't want to stick Greg w/ a big bill. (@ Greg: Hello & Thank You!) 

I am still very curious as to what the "One Manga - Under Construction" is all about. Was there a time limit on the previous legal action & now they can venture back into the manga reader market? Did the site owner suddenly decide to upgrade everything & had to shut it down to do it more easily (w/ no notice to anyone)? The mystery of One Manga...


Edited by d1r31, 13 January 2013 - 09:18 PM.

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#23 TwoTimesToo

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 05:07 PM

While I would be willing to help the development of the site via donations and other methods, I would advise against providing any form of tangible incentive for doing so (like medals or forum icons). In my experience, this almost always leads to a divide across the user base, often involving elitism and an undeserving sense of entitlement. Donations should be done only on the merits of benefiting the site, and not for fancy baubles. (That's just my opinion, though. Feel free to disagree.)

 

Like d1r31 mentioned; I'd also like to know if there is any credence to the "Under Construction" sign displayed on the original site. Does that actually mean it will be coming back at some time?



#24 Gnag

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 05:55 PM

I just have to agree with TwoTimesToo. 

 

No medals etc, I don't want this place to one of those forums where you buy status. (which is what it will come down to).


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#25 fatestitcher

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:36 PM

Also TwoTimesToo I don't think even Greg knows what the "under construction" means. He has no access to the server and no one has been able to contact Hyko or Zabi in a long time.


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#26 disastrousmaster

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:40 PM

D: there are places where you have to buy your status :/ le gay

 

i wouldnt mind the medals :/ not like they would mean anything.... but i can see how some would start to feel like pressured if all their friends had donation medal things.

 

and since i didnt say it last time >_> and then got berated on skype for it good job all staff of omf on keeping this forum a wonderful place.


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#27 Insane Soul

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:21 PM

Medals and stuff it is like you got to an Orphanage, donate a T shirt and expect something in exchange.

 

The point of donation is that you are willing to help for the forum sake because you use it and enjoy it, not for Ego Boost.


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#28 God Mode

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:54 PM

Medals and stuff it is like you got to an Orphanage, donate a T shirt and expect something in exchange.

 

The point of donation is that you are willing to help for the forum sake because you use it and enjoy it, not for Ego Boost.

And what if it nets you a custom title?



#29 Insane Soul

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:56 PM

And what if it nets you a custom title?

Since when Competition is the same as Charity?


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#30 Makaze

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:02 PM

And what if it nets you a custom title?


Then you are buying extra features. 'Buy a pro account and get bigger avatars and more signature space.' It's similar.


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#31 d1r31

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

I had no idea that icons/medals would cause strife. So obviously that is not the way to go in this forum.

 

@ Insane Soul: it is not like donators would be doing a good deed for the sake of pure goodness & thus, asking for a slight sign of recognition would invalidate the effort/dollars donated.

LOL! It is not meant to be a pure good deed that will build your character & get you into heaven. I found the comparison to donating to charity for purely altruistic reasons to be off-base.


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#32 Lumi

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:01 AM

Eh, I wasn't serious about the medal thing, although some small reward would probably encourage more people to donate..

 

I think it would be nice if donors got their member title changed to "OMF Supporter" or something simple like that, so that we know who have donated.



#33 Petite Fleur

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:36 AM

Why not a system that punishes those that try and be elitist over a custom title? I see that being good for goodness sake is a good quality but let's be honest, there's self righteous idealism and there's reality - people want incentive to give up their hard earned cash and if piracy taught us anything, if the bystander effect taught us anything, it's that people without incentive will always, always say "someone else will take care of it".

 

Custom titles, on the grounds that they can be revoked to anyone that feels automatically entitled and acts like an ass, is a decent system to implement and it creates incentive to give more to the community that rewards an aesthetic title.


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#34 Makaze

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 02:57 AM

Why not a system that punishes those that try and be elitist over a custom title? I see that being good for goodness sake is a good quality but let's be honest, there's self righteous idealism and there's reality - people want incentive to give up their hard earned cash and if piracy taught us anything, if the bystander effect taught us anything, it's that people without incentive will always, always say "someone else will take care of it".

 

Custom titles, on the grounds that they can be revoked to anyone that feels automatically entitled and acts like an ass, is a decent system to implement and it creates incentive to give more to the community that rewards an aesthetic title.

 

Instituting a system that requires more enforcement to make room for incentive to pay seems convoluted to me. There are many members who have been requesting that donations be opened up because they like the site and want to improve the quality of the server. A system like this has the potential to turn those good intentions into quiet elitism and feature grubbing if not open elitism. If you create the incentive, then people will see it as buying a custom title with the added bonus helping the site.

Under such a system, will a 1¢ donation get you a title? If you allow that, then people will pay 1¢ to get the title and then go back to being normal member. The same logic that you use to justify the claim that they will not donate at all would cause them to donate the minimum amount. Good intentions will not exist in the majority of donations and every member with a PayPal account or money card will have a custom title, devaluing those who donated more money.

The logical next step to avoid that kind of feature grubbing is to create a minimum donation that will earn you a user title. Say, $5 minimum. If such a requirement were introduced, the site would suddenly be giving out titles for a named price and any pretense of donations would be gone. It would make the site money to sell services and features. I am not denying that. But it would also make it a for-profit organization over night.

 

I do not think that is a factor that we want to introduce here. This is not a business, and we should not treat it like one.

Compared to selling site features, the medals idea and the 'OMF Supporter' title idea are much less harmful because they do not add an incentive for feature grubbing but they do add a sign of contribution.

On a less important note: You seem to be harboring elitism towards non-contributors. What I am reading is that there should be a system to stop people from acting elitist, but that you yourself look down on those who think "someone else will take care of it". (The evidence is your implication that believing in the goodness in people is idealistic because most people actually think that "someone else will take care of it". Ergo, people who think that are less good or not good compared to the people who would donate without incentive.) How can you expect an elitist mindset not to spread if the one who proposes a system to stop it has already fallen prey?


Edited by Makaze, 14 January 2013 - 03:08 AM.

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#35 Petite Fleur

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:32 AM

Instituting a system that requires more enforcement to make room for incentive to pay seems convoluted to me. There are many members who have been requesting that donations be opened up because they like the site and want to improve the quality of the server. A system like this has the potential to turn those good intentions into quiet elitism and feature grubbing if not open elitism. If you create the incentive, then people will see it as buying a custom title with the added bonus helping the site.

 

A request is not a promise to donate, however. Keep in mind the member base of OMF, in my experience there are far fewer members supporting themselves financially - much less well enough to put forward their own money - than the alternative. Good will and intention are two different things.

 

 

Under such a system, will a 1¢ donation get you a title? If you allow that, then people will pay 1¢ to get the title and then go back to being normal member. The same logic that you use to justify the claim that they will not donate at all would cause them to donate the minimum amount. Good intentions will not exist in the majority of donations and every member with a PayPal account or money card will have a custom title, devaluing those who donated more money.

 

Sure, I never delved into a minimum amount however. I didn't feel it was necessary, and part of me regretted that mistake. Unfortunately, I managed to be around to fully regret not covering every detail.


 

The logical next step to avoid that kind of feature grubbing is to create a minimum donation that will earn you a user title. Say, $5 minimum. If such a requirement were introduced, the site would suddenly be giving out titles for a named price and any pretense of donations would be gone. It would make the site money to sell services and features. I am not denying that. But it would also make it a for-profit organization over night.

 

Right, for an aesthetic. There is literally no real cost to the ones giving them out than to change the title of the user that donated. It would be selling an aesthetic, pretty much. Something that has a member base that would welcome the idea. Incentive plans are created not to oppose the idea of giving to a good cause, but to give reason to. However in cases where it happens with a tangible reward fund must be spent to construct this tangible reward - as an aesthetic as incentive does not cross this boundary, and requires a minimal effort from staff members, it hardly counts as crossing a sort of moral event horizon such as you are suggesting.

 

 

 

I do not think that is a factor that we want to introduce here. This is not a business, and we should not treat it like one.

 

But it is a website funded by a kindly man with a team of people that do not work as employees on a website that clearly serves more to the purpose of the members than it does the staff themselves. Now we can say "because of this, the right thing to do is to donate" but how much do you think that could gain, as opposed to an alternative. I'm not saying it needs to be a business, but if we're talking money in any context it should be done efficiently. If the memberbase pays for the serves, and pays for whatever else this fund comes to, well, fund - it will comes with an idea of entitlement. As you so try to belittle before, this is not elitism, this is psychology. It's idealistic to believe human beings are inherently good, they aren't, human beings are inherently blank, raised into a society of want and need, from others and for themselves. All kinds of study into this sort of thing go against an idealistic mentality that human beings are inherently good. As such, sir, when dealing with people you play into human nature, you do not immediately expect good things because your cause is good.



 

Compared to selling site features, the medals idea and the 'OMF Supporter' title idea are much less harmful because they do not add an incentive for feature grubbing but they do add a sign of contribution.

 

Medal, custom title, same thing. I was offering the idea for the same idea of an aesthetic as opposed to a feature.

 

 

On a less important note: You seem to be harboring elitism towards non-contributors. What I am reading is that there should be a system to stop people from acting elitist, but that you yourself look down on those who think "someone else will take care of it". (The evidence is your implication that believing in the goodness in people is idealistic because most people actually think that "someone else will take care of it". Ergo, people who think that are less good or not good compared to the people who would donate without incentive.) How can you expect an elitist mindset not to spread if the one who proposes a system to stop it has already fallen prey?

 

Am I? When there isn't even a memberbase of 'non-contributors' yet, that I am aware of? I'll re-iterate the above, when you deal with people, you deal with human nature. The post was targeted toward people that often fall back toward idealism when discussing what is right and what is wrong, and that idealism is "the world is full of good people" and they treat how they post(not necessarily anything else) under that pretense. I have seen this in all forms, shapes and sizes on OMF.
 
The bottom line is, when you deal with people you have to think from a psychological mindset, you have to consider human nature. Sure, you can forgo that, but the results compared to preparation for people to act like, well, people and the results against preparation will be different. Sometimes in a minor way, sometimes in a vast way. This is efficiency, and it is the first principle I learned to handling business, whether in retail or in politics.

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#36 ZCOverload

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:35 AM

Why are we even discussing this? I've yet to meet a single member who was ever like "Oh look at that faggot without a custom title, lol noob".


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#37 Gnag

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:52 AM

Why are we even discussing this? I've yet to meet a single member who was ever like "Oh look at that faggot without a custom title, lol noob".

 

You haven't?  Because I have. And even if they do not say it directly, there still is invisible rifts. 

Let's take the join date for an example. I'm not saying everybody, but alot of people found that to be a high status thing. And that showed, real bad.  

 

____

And besides, getting a functional forum which they've taken for granted(while others worked hard on it) should be reward enough. 


Edited by Gnag, 14 January 2013 - 03:55 AM.

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#38 d1r31

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:28 AM

Anonymous donation box, please don't talk about it if you've donated. Everyone would find it annoying if there was a rift between "paying" & "non paying". I don't know how much traffic this site really gets or how much revenue would be generated from ads.
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#39 Raiden

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:55 AM

You haven't?  Because I have. And even if they do not say it directly, there still is invisible rifts. 

Let's take the join date for an example. I'm not saying everybody, but alot of people found that to be a high status thing. And that showed, real bad.  

 

____

And besides, getting a functional forum which they've taken for granted(while others worked hard on it) should be reward enough. 

 

You still remember when on the old forums the Post Coutn was removed cause some found it necessary to bash on the users with less PC (than themselves). But hwo long did that last? dunno 1 month maybe? and then the PC was back, but since then I never saw that problem occur again... so I don't think it's that much of a problem.

 

aside form that I'm also willing to donate if it ocmes down to that :)


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#40 Makaze

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:38 PM

But it is a website funded by a kindly man with a team of people that do not work as employees on a website that clearly serves more to the purpose of the members than it does the staff themselves. Now we can say "because of this, the right thing to do is to donate" but how much do you think that could gain, as opposed to an alternative. I'm not saying it needs to be a business, but if we're talking money in any context it should be done efficiently. If the memberbase pays for the serves, and pays for whatever else this fund comes to, well, fund - it will comes with an idea of entitlement. As you so try to belittle before, this is not elitism, this is psychology. It's idealistic to believe human beings are inherently good, they aren't, human beings are inherently blank, raised into a society of want and need, from others and for themselves. All kinds of study into this sort of thing go against an idealistic mentality that human beings are inherently good.

There is no 'right thing to do'. The site does not need to survive. If people do not pay then the site will not survive. People paying is them putting their money where their mouth is. Not caring about the site as much as others is not something to look down on. If the people who did not pay went on to complain when the site died due to lack of funds, then you could look down. The mentality that not paying without incentive is inherently worse than paying without incentive is what I am basing your elitism on. See below the last quote.



The people who originally planned to donate wished to because it would improve the quality of the site, not because they want to pay the administration. They are thankful for the work that the administration does, but the real concern is the community, not its keepers. Otherwise you would get people paying in just to give the admins some spending money outside of a time of crisis. I posit that this is because the staff are not seen as overlords but as a part of the community. They are contributing as well, but in another way. They are not a different class, they are simply good members of the community.

The administration is made up of volunteers from within the community itself. If you start treating them like a company that is selling the business of the server, there will be a disconnect between the administration and the members on an entirely new level. The relationship between the administration and the memberbase will become a market relationship.

Some dangers that will be introduced if we start paying staff are:
  • Increased two-faced interaction: Staff will be forced to treat members as customers and "customers are always right". They will be forced to act in such a way that the members will want to pay them. The staff may then rant about customers behind closed doors in the staff lounge if one exists. Honest interactions with members will decrease and staff will become less personable.
  • Increased stinginess in the hiring process: Members will attempt to become staff at least partly for the money, and members who already are staff will be opposed to adding new staff. The fewer people there are to split the pot with and to hurt the business's image, the better.
  • Increased pedantic enforcement: Given the job of enforcing the rules and the incentive of pay, staff will become more rigorous in enforcing rules at even the most technical of breaks. Any questioning of the enforcement will be redirected to the phrase 'I am just doing my job'. This will also make staff less personable.
  • Increased aversion to change: The incentive to stick with systems that the staff know to be profitable will be increased greatly over time. A suggestion for a system that does not offer a profit will be overlooked in favor of one that offers a profit. Openness to criticism of this trend will be nullified without the threat of a mass boycott.
Improving the server or paying for new additions only as necessary is preferable to introducing these factors in my opinion.
 
Am I? When there isn't even a memberbase of 'non-contributors' yet, that I am aware of? I'll re-iterate the above, when you deal with people, you deal with human nature. The post was targeted toward people that often fall back toward idealism when discussing what is right and what is wrong, and that idealism is "the world is full of good people" and they treat how they post(not necessarily anything else) under that pretense. I have seen this in all forms, shapes and sizes on OMF.

The bottom line is, when you deal with people you have to think from a psychological mindset, you have to consider human nature. Sure, you can forgo that, but the results compared to preparation for people to act like, well, people and the results against preparation will be different. Sometimes in a minor way, sometimes in a vast way. This is efficiency, and it is the first principle I learned to handling business, whether in retail or in politics.
 
Yes, I believe you are. I did not deny the trends you proposed. Those psychological phenomena do exist. The problem came after. You went above and beyond the claim that they exist and implied that the trend was bad. You stated that human nature is to do the bad thing. Therefore, people who go against it are good or better.
 
If people go against human nature and donate for the good of the site with no individual gain, then they are good. If they give in to human nature and do not donate, then they are not as good or worse.

People who donate without incentive are good; those who do not are bad.

That is elitist thinking.

Looking down on members for their natural state is still looking down on members.

Edited by Makaze, 14 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.

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