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#41 disastrousmaster

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

you know i was going to reply to a bunch of these post then i started thinking...do you think we could turn the idea of buying features/elitism into a debate topic on the debate forum. So that we dont spam up this area with debating it.

 

 

 


Edited by disastrousmaster, 14 January 2013 - 04:52 PM.

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#42 Satan

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

I'm already superior to everyone here, so a CT wouldn't hurt. 


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#43 Insane Soul

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:43 PM

I'm already superior to everyone here, so a CT wouldn't hurt. 

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#44 Petite Fleur

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

There is no 'right thing to do'. The site does not need to survive. If people do not pay then the site will not survive. People paying is them putting their money where their mouth is. Not caring about the site as much as others is not something to look down on. If the people who did not pay went on to complain when the site died due to lack of funds, then you could look down. The mentality that not paying without incentive is inherently worse than paying without incentive is what I am basing your elitism on. See below the last quote.



The people who originally planned to donate wished to because it would improve the quality of the site, not because they want to pay the administration. They are thankful for the work that the administration does, but the real concern is the community, not its keepers. Otherwise you would get people paying in just to give the admins some spending money outside of a time of crisis. I posit that this is because the staff are not seen as overlords but as a part of the community. They are contributing as well, but in another way. They are not a different class, they are simply good members of the community.

The administration is made up of volunteers from within the community itself. If you start treating them like a company that is selling the business of the server, there will be a disconnect between the administration and the members on an entirely new level. The relationship between the administration and the memberbase will become a market relationship.

Some dangers that will be introduced if we start paying staff are:

  • Increased two-faced interaction: Staff will be forced to treat members as customers and "customers are always right". They will be forced to act in such a way that the members will want to pay them. The staff may then rant about customers behind closed doors in the staff lounge if one exists. Honest interactions with members will decrease and staff will become less personable.
  • Increased stinginess in the hiring process: Members will attempt to become staff at least partly for the money, and members who already are staff will be opposed to adding new staff. The fewer people there are to split the pot with and to hurt the business's image, the better.
  • Increased pedantic enforcement: Given the job of enforcing the rules and the incentive of pay, staff will become more rigorous in enforcing rules at even the most technical of breaks. Any questioning of the enforcement will be redirected to the phrase 'I am just doing my job'. This will also make staff less personable.
  • Increased aversion to change: The incentive to stick with systems that the staff know to be profitable will be increased greatly over time. A suggestion for a system that does not offer a profit will be overlooked in favor of one that offers a profit. Openness to criticism of this trend will be nullified without the threat of a mass boycott.
Improving the server or paying for new additions only as necessary is preferable to introducing these factors in my opinion.
  
Yes, I believe you are. I did not deny the trends you proposed. Those psychological phenomena do exist. The problem came after. You went above and beyond the claim that they exist and implied that the trend was bad. You stated that human nature is to do the bad thing. Therefore, people who go against it are good or better.
 
If people go against human nature and donate for the good of the site with no individual gain, then they are good. If they give in to human nature and do not donate, then they are not as good or worse.

People who donate without incentive are good; those who do not are bad.

That is elitist thinking.

Looking down on members for their natural state is still looking down on members.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and point you to the center body of your post(ignoring the semantics of wordplay as you ignored how I said things to interpret it in whatever way let you be contrary) and then read the bottom portion of your post. It's eerie how you could very well be talking to yourself given these two parts.

 

Please don't jump on things for the sole sake of jumping on things, we've covered previously that I do not enjoy semantics arguments, twisting also applies. The philosophy is not an elitist mindset it is "prepare for the worst, hope for the best".


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#45 beakedbard

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

I agree making people donate for custom titles is just elitist surely if people want to donate they will anyways i want to donate but i wouldn't want some kind of bs prize for it i just don't think its right.


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#46 wingman32x

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:23 PM

If CT's are given to donators, I very much hope that they would still allow users to nominate other users for them. IMO it's a special thing when you wake up to VM's/PM's congratulating you for earning a CT. I still remember when I found out I got one. It felt good that someone thought I should have one, and that they cared enough to send a nomination. Making them "Donator only" so to speak completely destroys that dynamic. Anyway, that's how I feel about this.

 

I understand that incentive needs to be offered, but hopefully donation would be an alternate path to certain things, not an exclusive thing.


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#47 God Mode

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:25 PM

Whether or not it's morally right is irrelevant. If you want more people to donate, you offer some sort of incentive to do so. In a perfect world we all would pitch in because it's the right thing to do, but this isn't a perfect world. Given that we've all effectively had to start over on here, and the elite can't lord their join dates or CTs over everyone else, they're going to actively seek a way to differentiate themselves from those they see as the common rabble. The question is whether the administration want to capitalize on this situation or not.

 

I'll be donating either way. Not out of any real sense of morality, but because I've made enough friends on here that it'd be a real pain in the ass if the entire forum shut down or I have to wade through these increasingly horrible server issues for much longer just to contact them.



#48 Useypoo

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:32 PM

I won't donate, but I wouldn't mind receiving my custom title again.

 

That way I can go back to being elitist.

 

Currently, my join date, post count, and lack of a title don't make me look impressive enough.


Edited by Useypoo, 14 January 2013 - 06:33 PM.

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#49 Masked Rider

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

Anonymous donation box, please don't talk about it if you've donated. Everyone would find it annoying if there was a rift between "paying" & "non paying". I don't know how much traffic this site really gets or how much revenue would be generated from ads.

This right here is the right idea, who said we need Custom Titles anyways? I just don't want OMF to crash all the time, it doesn't matter who pays and who does pay. But if you pay without putting them on the spotlight then you have more control, if OMF wants to thank the donators let it be subtle and not make others feel like they didn't do anything to help. It's not about who gets CTs or not, it's about getting this forum in a shape where everyone can enjoy it. If we did get CTs then we obviously need to remind members who did get them to not make any of the others members feel like they are any less then other members with rules and good moderation. There shouldn't be elitism.


Edited by Masked Rider, 14 January 2013 - 06:38 PM.


#50 beakedbard

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:34 PM

But at the end of the day do people really need this incentive to donate it seems to me like most people willing to donate will if the get something or not this just seems rather pointless to me on a different kind of site yeah maybe something like this would be needed but in all honesty who here who's willing to donate cares if they gain a title out of it or not? 


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#51 Makaze

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

I'm gonna go ahead and point you to the center body of your post(ignoring the semantics of wordplay as you ignored how I said things to interpret it in whatever way let you be contrary) and then read the bottom portion of your post. It's eerie how you could very well be talking to yourself given these two parts.

 

Please don't jump on things for the sole sake of jumping on things, we've covered previously that I do not enjoy semantics arguments, twisting also applies. The philosophy is not an elitist mindset it is "prepare for the worst, hope for the best".

 

I did not intentionally ignore it. I responded to what I read. I apologize if we were on the same page. I did not mean to condescend.

I do not see what you mean when you say I could be talking to myself. Please elaborate.

There is a reason to jump on it. I knew that you meant "prepare for the worst, hope for the best" from the start. It means that you implicitly believe in a best and a worst. Thus you imply that people who do the best are 'better' and the people who do the worst are 'worse'. Elitism is inherent in that mindset.


Edited by Makaze, 14 January 2013 - 07:11 PM.

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#52 Baka-Dynasty

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:23 PM

Yes i totaly agree :3 also i think peopel that donate should have an honorific title like : WE SAVED GREG ASS or OMF SAVIORS in my case i would settle with a title like : THE QUEEN/KING/PRESIDENT/ALIEN NUMBER ONE OFF ALL TIME POTATO LOVER OMG IM RUNNING OUT OF THINGS TO SAY. 

 

Yeah  i like short names :3...Anw i will gladly donate as much as u want :D My body is all yours :P ill gladly donate regardless of what u give since we all love omf


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Come check out my video room thread :3

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#53 Petite Fleur

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:25 PM

I did not intentionally ignore it. I responded to what I read. I apologize if we were on the same page. I did not mean to condescend.

I do not see what you mean when you say I could be talking to myself. Please elaborate.

There is a reason to jump on it. I knew that you meant "prepare for the worst, hope for the best" from the start. It means that you implicitly believe in a best and a worst. Thus you imply that people who do the best are 'better' and the people who do the worst are 'worse'. Elitism is inherent in that mindset.

 

 

No, you've followed that by misinterpreting, twisting and demonizing everything I've said. I have said two things that you need to take into account;

A. when dealing with people, you prepare for them. At a best and a worst end of the spectrum, yes, because that is how you logically conduct business. You prepare, such as if you take care of an alligator, or a cat, or a baby, you prepare for the worst that can happen.

 

B. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. It is not creating a moral black and white zone where one person is less than another, it is the mindset of business. When you create a system that offers a reward it is to capitalize on income. This is all from an objective mentality - the one dragging morals into this is you. I see this simply and only as a smart way to play business - which is to play people

 

If you feel I have a divide, you are mistaken. If you feel a divide will be created I have already offered a system of revocation of title for those that abuse it as a sort of status. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Sure, there can and will be some things in between that.


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#54 Makaze

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:39 PM

No, you've followed that by misinterpreting, twisting and demonizing everything I've said. I have said two things that you need to take into account;

A. when dealing with people, you prepare for them. At a best and a worst end of the spectrum, yes, because that is how you logically conduct business. You prepare, such as if you take care of an alligator, or a cat, or a baby, you prepare for the worst that can happen.

 

B. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. It is not creating a moral black and white zone where one person is less than another, it is the mindset of business. When you create a system that offers a reward it is to capitalize on income. This is all from an objective mentality - the one dragging morals into this is you. I see this simply and only as a smart way to play business - which is to play people

 

If you feel I have a divide, you are mistaken. If you feel a divide will be created I have already offered a system of revocation of title for those that abuse it as a sort of status. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Sure, there can and will be some things in between that.

 

Conceded on both A and B. They are facts and I do not deny them. However, I still feel that a preference for one outcome encourages elitism. I never said that elitism was avoidable. Even if people are not given public recognition, they will feel some kind of entitlement as a contributor. What I and apparently some others want to do is minimize a feeling of elitism, not just a practice of it.

 

I do not feel that I have demonized what you have said except when I called you an elitist. I expressed what I saw as potential consequences of your suggestion. Since the consequences are largely negative, I assumed that you had not thought it through. Your suggestion seemed careless, not made with ill will.

It is easy to feel attacked as a person when your ideas are attacked, but I do not mean you attack you. I am on the side of consideration and am the devil's advocate. No idea should go without criticism. Even when I called you an elitist, it was to demonstrate why elitism would exist even with counter-measures in place. I did not intend to belittle you personally.


Edited by Makaze, 14 January 2013 - 07:49 PM.

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#55 Scorpion2k4u

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:49 PM

I'm against rewards for donations. I doubt Greg would do that eitherway. Would it be so hard to give some money for sth every one of us enjoys in one way or the other and not getting something in return despite that you can enjoy the page?

I'm not saying that people need to spend money on here of course, but if they decide to do then it shouldn't be with the intention to gain sth but because they simply care for this community.

Besides, I could see people bragging with their reward for donating, I don't say it will happen or get bad but just because the possibility is there I think it's better to avoid it from the start.

Rewards like a CT should be earned and not be simply paid for.


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#56 Petite Fleur

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:16 PM

Conceded on both A and B. They are facts and I do not deny them. However, I still feel that a preference for one outcome encourages elitism. I never said that elitism was avoidable. Even if people are not given public recognition, they will feel some kind of entitlement as a contributor. What I and apparently some others want to do is minimize a feeling of elitism, not just a practice of it.

 

I do not feel that I have demonized what you have said except when I called you an elitist. I expressed what I saw as potential consequences of your suggestion. Since the consequences are largely negative, I assumed that you had not thought it through. Your suggestion seemed careless, not made with ill will.

It is easy to feel attacked as a person when your ideas are attacked, but I do not mean you attack you. I am on the side of consideration and am the devil's advocate. No idea should go without criticism. Even when I called you an elitist, it was to demonstrate why elitism would exist even with counter-measures in place. I did not intend to belittle you personally.

 

 

There does not exist a measure to control everyone. The first measure lowers the desire to act elitist, however a feeling born of a feeling can be born of several things. Envy, for one. It is not possible to remove these feelings entirely. As for how to mitigate them, that works by removing an environment where they're lorded over people by those that have them.

 

The thing is, sir, OMF is essentially run for the users(as they have the vast majority of activity here as oppose to the staff). Contributions would be the nice thing to do, because then we are at least partially paying for our own play pen. To note, paying for is not running, so I'm not implying that they deserve a grand sense of entitlement.

 

Anyways, the issue is dealing with peoples feelings. An environment would exist where people are punished for acting superior - in other words they don't have the same entitlement to bragging. However, nothing can be done honestly about a system that garners envy - and I don't think one should be implemented. Why? Because people are giving money to a free service that they don't have to give money toward and their reward is an aesthetic. If people feel inferior(because this is less of a thing about those people being superior, if we're talking about feelings it's more times then not going to be a feeling of inferiority), that should be handled on a case by case thing.

 

If I'm being honest, once punishment exists for those that want to brag and act superior, there is no longer a reason or an environment for those feelings to exist within. They will, I'm not saying they won't, what I'm saying is "these people offered their money, and that is a hard thing to come by. I've lived off of vending machines back when one dollar was a treasure, it meant I ate that day. Suck it up." And yes, that's harsh, but it's not elitism. If a system is created that punishes those that feel superior, then the only ones creating that divide are those that feel inferior and yes, they should suck it up.

 

I'm against rewards for donations. I doubt Greg would do that eitherway. Would it be so hard to give some money for sth every one of us enjoys in one way or the other and not getting something in return despite that you can enjoy the page?

I'm not saying that people need to spend money on here of course, but if they decide to do then it shouldn't be with the intention to gain sth but because they simply care for this community.

Besides, I could see people bragging with their reward for donating, I don't say it will happen or get bad but just because the possibility is there I think it's better to avoid it from the start.

Rewards like a CT should be earned and not be simply paid for.

 

The old system including such things as people saying someone should get one, and that could/was easily abused by people getting friends to recommend them. So it was a system of popularity. Sure, there were other ways, I'm not denying that. But you're saying people giving honest to god hard earned cash and getting an aesthetic award is bad compared to getting an aesthetic award through popularity.


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#57 wingman32x

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

The old system including such things as people saying someone should get one, and that could/was easily abused by people getting friends to recommend them. So it was a system of popularity. Sure, there were other ways, I'm not denying that. But you're saying people giving honest to god hard earned cash and getting an aesthetic award is bad compared to getting an aesthetic award through popularity.

 

I know that you're right to some extent. I know that such a problem probably exists.

 

However, if it were a pure popularity contest, I can tell you right now I would have never gotten one. I've been a part of OMF for years, yet a vast majority of people here and on the old forum don't know me. I was never part of a SOT clique, and I stayed out of the big 3 discussions. I've only really been active in the low traffic Slice of life or romance threads. So not a lot of people have seen me. That's why getting one surprised me, I actually got one despite popularity going AGAINST me.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there have been cases like mine where a CT wasn't obtained because the person called in a favor with another friend or whatever. I'm sure you've seen people make the "Long overdue" remarks in regard to a person getting one. I guess I'm trying to point out that there's a flip side to what you're saying IMO.


Edited by wingman32x, 14 January 2013 - 09:17 PM.

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#58 Petite Fleur

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:18 PM

I know that you're right to some extent. I know that such a problem probably exists.

 

However, if it were a pure popularity contest, I can tell you right now I would have never gotten one. I've been a part of OMF for years, yet a vast majority of people here and on the old forum don't know me. I was never part of a SOT clique, and I stayed out of the big 3 discussions. I've only really been active in the low traffic Slice of life or romance threads. So not a lot of people have seen me. That's why getting one surprised me, I actually got one despite popularity going AGAINST me.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there have been cases like mine where a CT wasn't obtained because the person called in a favor with another friend or whatever. I'm sure you've seen people make the "Long overdue" remarks in regard to a person getting one. I guess I'm trying to point out that there's a flip side to what you're saying IMO.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying if you want your criteria to be 'earn it' then paying for it is a lot better method than hoping people nominate you or asking people to or some other method that requires people to see and know you exist.


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#59 Makaze

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:50 PM

There does not exist a measure to control everyone. The first measure lowers the desire to act elitist, however a feeling born of a feeling can be born of several things. Envy, for one. It is not possible to remove these feelings entirely. As for how to mitigate them, that works by removing an environment where they're lorded over people by those that have them.
 
The thing is, sir, OMF is essentially run for the users(as they have the vast majority of activity here as oppose to the staff). Contributions would be the nice thing to do, because then we are at least partially paying for our own play pen. To note, paying for is not running, so I'm not implying that they deserve a grand sense of entitlement.
 
Anyways, the issue is dealing with peoples feelings. An environment would exist where people are punished for acting superior - in other words they don't have the same entitlement to bragging. However, nothing can be done honestly about a system that garners envy - and I don't think one should be implemented. Why? Because people are giving money to a free service that they don't have to give money toward and their reward is an aesthetic. If people feel inferior(because this is less of a thing about those people being superior, if we're talking about feelings it's more times then not going to be a feeling of inferiority), that should be handled on a case by case thing.
 
If I'm being honest, once punishment exists for those that want to brag and act superior, there is no longer a reason or an environment for those feelings to exist within. They will, I'm not saying they won't, what I'm saying is "these people offered their money, and that is a hard thing to come by. I've lived off of vending machines back when one dollar was a treasure, it meant I ate that day. Suck it up." And yes, that's harsh, but it's not elitism. If a system is created that punishes those that feel superior, then the only ones creating that divide are those that feel inferior and yes, they should suck it up.
 
 
The old system including such things as people saying someone should get one, and that could/was easily abused by people getting friends to recommend them. So it was a system of popularity. Sure, there were other ways, I'm not denying that. But you're saying people giving honest to god hard earned cash and getting an aesthetic award is bad compared to getting an aesthetic award through popularity.

 
I have two points.

The former, the idea that non-users run the site for users. That is a disconnect that I do not believe exists and feel should not exist. The site is run for other users by users, and the people who run the site are selected from the userbase. I expressed in a previous post that the staff are similar to those who donate because they are users who are contributing something to the site. I am reiterating. They are not in a different group of people. They are users who have volunteered to make their community a better place. If the staff run the site for users, then contributors donate for users in the same way.

I like the user-run maintenance and want to protect it.
 


The latter, popularity versus money. Popularity is a fair assessment of worth in the community. Someone can be counted a positive force in a community if the community enjoys their company. Those who wish to have a custom title but are not popular are not getting noticed in the community. Why? More often than not, they are not noticed because they are not bringing anything that the community cares about into the community. Allowing a minority of the community to decide what is a good contribution to the whole of the community does not strike me as a good idea. The alternative is to leave it to the majority to decide what is good for the majority. There were other methods to get a custom title (if memory serves, winning a contest was one), but they were also based in the popularity of users' works if not users (voting on entries). You do not get a prize for showing up. You have to do a good job.

Comparatively, a person does not need to be a valued member or create a popular work to buy a custom title, and as you suggested yourself, most members cannot afford to contribute. It follows that a minority of people who need no merit other than money will be rewarded. It reminds me of how in many MMOs, there will be a class of people who do no work to improve their position and buy expensive (in game gold) items with real money. The members who worked hard in the game to get those items begin to feel cheated when faced with these novices who used the cash shop to get the same level of in-game recognition and status. Over time, people stop trying to build up wealth because it is not worth it when someone else can get to the same place with the push of a button. The problem can be avoided if the things that you get for cash are independent of the rewards received for direct community involvement (such as a badge or medal), but you are not suggesting that something independent should be the reward.


Edited by Makaze, 14 January 2013 - 09:52 PM.

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#60 Petite Fleur

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:24 PM

 
I have two points.

The former, the idea that non-users run the site for users. That is a disconnect that I do not believe exists and feel should not exist. The site is run for other users by users, and the people who run the site are selected from the userbase. I expressed in a previous post that the staff are similar to those who donate because they are users who are contributing something to the site. I am reiterating. They are not in a different group of people. They are users who have volunteered to make their community a better place. If the staff run the site for users, then contributors donate for users in the same way.

I like the user-run maintenance and want to protect it.

 

I've been told by moderators that Greg informs them they are no longer members in the sense of being, well, members when they become moderators.

 

 

 

 



The latter, popularity versus money. Popularity is a fair assessment of worth in the community. Someone can be counted a positive force in a community if the community enjoys their company. Those who wish to have a custom title but are not popular are not getting noticed in the community. Why? More often than not, they are not noticed because they are not bringing anything that the community cares about into the community. Allowing a minority of the community to decide what is a good contribution to the whole of the community does not strike me as a good idea. The alternative is to leave it to the majority to decide what is good for the majority. There were other methods to get a custom title (if memory serves, winning a contest was one), but they were also based in the popularity of users' works if not users (voting on entries). You do not get a prize for showing up. You have to do a good job.

 

 

The issue is, not everyone has the skills for the contests, and the popularity method was abused previous, by merely asking people to nominate you. It's not exactly a work for it situation for the latter and for the prior some people simply did not spend all that time to learn to draw, to write, to take pictures, etc. What is most common is money, everyone can have that, no? Otherwise they can just ask people to nominate them, and at that point we might as well just let people edit their own titles whenever they want.

 

 

 

 

Comparatively, a person does not need to be a valued member or create a popular work to buy a custom title, and as you suggested yourself, most members cannot afford to contribute. It follows that a minority of people who need no merit other than money will be rewarded. It reminds me of how in many MMOs, there will be a class of people who do no work to improve their position and buy expensive (in game gold) items with real money. The members who worked hard in the game to get those items begin to feel cheated when faced with these novices who used the cash shop to get the same level of in-game recognition and status. Over time, people stop trying to build up wealth because it is not worth it when someone else can get to the same place with the push of a button. The problem can be avoided if the things that you get for cash are independent of the rewards received for direct community involvement (such as a badge or medal), but you are not suggesting that something independent should be the reward.

 

I'm not, alternatively i just say keep all three methods. Or make OMF titles "contributor" if they contribute money, and "contest winner" if they win a contest. Of course this in and of itself devalues the custom title, since there's nothing gimmicky or silly or funny or symbolic about them anymore, they're just awards for doing a good job.


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