103 replies to this topic

[Millennium Creed]

Does anyone else here think suicide is over glorified by the media (or at least the American media)?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't deserve coverage, as it definitely does...but I feel like the infamy you get from it inspires already depressed people into doing it and not getting it themselves.

[Shredow]

I think it is really similar to how mass killings have been for the last few decades. The media would rather get people riled up into the spectacle of it rather than having a day or two of muted mourning and letting the matter drop.

 

This kind of behavior has led to a kind of twisted glorification of both events.. And unfortunately leads to copy cat cases of both.

IMO, it is media corruption at its vilest. 

[Ren-san]

The problem that I see with the media nowadays isn't the topics that they are covering but the fact that they are able to get information and coverage of events from various places around the world instantly.

 

Sure anyone can say that the media is focusing too much attention on suicides that take place in the world but lets be honest with ourselves here. It doesn't matter what the media covers anymore before viewers classify the topic as something they have already seen or heard plenty of times already.   

 

As far as my concern for suicide goes, I don't really care how a person decides to end their lives since everyone that was born into this world will eventually die somehow. We as humans make choices in life and sometimes those choices aren't always going to lead to a desirable outcome that other people have in their minds.   

Edited by Ren-san, 04 March 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[ZCOverload]

As someone who's had suicidal thoughts himself in the past, I think I can help clear this up.

 

First of all, the media glorifies it, yes. But at the same time most threats of suicide are merely threats to gain attention. If you have real suicidal thoughts, you don't vocalize or express it. Notice the families of many suicide victims in the media speak only of how "happy" they were and how they excelled in many activities, etc. A suicidal person prefers to keep the idea to themselves.

 

Suicide has basically, thanks to the media, become such a trivial matter that people use it for attention, and thus attention is drawn from the people who really are contemplating killing themselves.

[Lone_ant]

Frankly, I think Suicides shouldn't be covered at all. Suicides have a tendencity to affect "suicide echoes"

http://www.promoteli...wj_janfeb11.pdf

 

And depending on the way media handle it, can even  result to desensitization of it, and even glorification:

http://www.hawaii.ed... Micronesia.pdf

[Alpha]

If there are any truths in this world , these two fit the mark perfectly. The media are just factual gossipers that will do whatever it takes to make money while satisfying their own personal beliefs of free press, and a man who wants to die with the world watching will eventually suceed.

Edited by Alpha, 05 March 2013 - 12:22 AM.

[Ultrafragor]

The alternative to suicide is therapy to get to the bottom of what the hell your problem is. But that's also a very hard route because of the state of psychological services in the US and because, when weighing putting in the hard work necessary to make yourself a better person against giving up all the things you never knew you never knew and going out with a bang, a lot of people may chose the easy one.

 

Best bet is always educating people about the problem, but people are idiots. After all the coverage suicide has gotten so far it doesn't seem like people are any better at preventing it. 

[Alpha]

The alternative to suicide is therapy to get to the bottom of what the hell your problem is

That is actually the way to solve every problem in existance, just saying.
If someone does not want to live usually he or she leaves at least 10 warning signs before commiting the act. The person does not need therapy anymore than every one else in their life that just ignore the clear signs. This is a society problem. Everyone in someone's life is to blame when that someone commits suicide.

Edited by Alpha, 05 March 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[chanlin]

That is actually the way to solve every problem in existance, just saying.
If someone does not want to live usually he or she leaves at least 10 warning signs before commiting the act. The person does not need therapy anymore than every one else in their life that just ignore the clear signs. This is a society problem. Everyone in someone's life is to blame when that someone commits suicide.

 

I'm sorry, but I find that idea is very, very wrong. If a person doesn't open up about their problems and tell family or friends, how can those people be blamed? Even if the person who committed suicide did open up about their thoughts and problems their family and friends have no control over the other person's actions. 

Edited by chanlin, 05 March 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[Lone_ant]

Talking blame is the wrong thing to approach it. It's impossible to put a finger on any single thing or person, and it's not a constructive way to approach it- just adding adding more guilt and resentment to the situation.

 

You could talk instead about contributions. Actions that contributed or failed to stem the outcome (note here: actions, not people). This includes the actions of the victim as well (and indeed I should think one of the main factors would be the victim's actions). But this would also include the people in his/her life and how their actions contributed to the outcome. Contribution is not blame (which implies guilt and punishment), but things that could have been done differently or better.

Edited by Lone_ant, 05 March 2013 - 08:24 PM.

[Petite Fleur]

That is actually the way to solve every problem in existance, just saying.
If someone does not want to live usually he or she leaves at least 10 warning signs before commiting the act. The person does not need therapy anymore than every one else in their life that just ignore the clear signs. This is a society problem. Everyone in someone's life is to blame when that someone commits suicide.

 

Does everyone know these signs? Are they taught to everyone everywhere in everything to make sure?

No?

Then how can you blame other people?

And what would you do if you did see these signs? Make sure?

Okay, what then?

If someone's going to kill themselves, you have three options;

1-Try and help them through it, but it turns out you have no idea what you're doing.

2-Ignore it, yeah that's actually against the law where I live.

3-Call crisis, and they lock them up, because they're a danger to themselves, and help deal with it.

 

Any answer that isn't three is senseless and stupid. So let's backtrack.

 

How do you know? How do you know to know? When do you make the call on what happens? How can you be responsible, inherently, because someone kills themselves? Why am I responsible for every person I've ever met?

[Alpha]

You know for sure when it's too late. Before then , its just about how good you are at understanding others. When people are involved no such scientific method exists. But for the teacher who does not take the problems of the child seriously, the kids who won't stop bullying, the parents who just have to many things going on to take a second look. Thoughts of killing ones self come when a person feels like they are powerless in a world that does not care.

 

In the end it is not for whom I would blame, every little role in a persons life is played by a person. It takes a combination of many of these small roles to push someone over the edge. Although there is always exceptions to the rule.

Edited by Alpha, 05 March 2013 - 08:31 PM.

[chanlin]

That's only if depression and suicidal thoughts occur solely due to environment. Nature (neurotransmitters) also play a major role. Someone could have a pretty nice life going for them and just because they don't have enough serotonin or dopamine they can become depressed. It's all more complicated than that and it probably seems easier to point fingers and blame other people, but that's not how it always works. 

 

I, for one, believe in the diathesis-stress model (http://en.wikipedia....is–stress_model) when it comes to things such as this. This model is the most widely accepted in the Psychology community when it comes to talking about how psychopathologies occur. So, yes, factors such as people can be an influencing factor on whether or not a person decides to take their life, but that doesn't make it that person's fault. Not everyone that is bullied commits suicide. Some people who aren't even bullied and have doting parents commit suicide. Nothing is simple, everything is intertwined. 

[Makaze]

Ah... Unpopular opinion time.

 

On the opening question: I do feel that sensationalizing suicides is detrimental and can make it seem like a good way to get attention.

 

On blame: The line between suicide and murder by others is not thin. If one takes their own life, they have decided to end their stay in this world based on subjective perceptions and evaluations of their life and environment. Every individual wants different things from their world, and not all get what they want. I cannot assert that everyone deserves what they wish to have. I cannot assert that even one person does. Someone who has a higher level of happiness than most people but is not satisfied may threaten suicide with the same level of seriousness as someone who lives in absolute misery. Drawing a line between the two is arbitrary for the same reason that drawing a line between two bids on a painting and calling one of them more accurate is arbitrary.

 

I conclude that suicide is an individual choice. Murder happens when someone else takes away the subject's choice in the matter. Murder can happen to anyone with no relevance to their choices or how happy they are with their lives. Suicidal people are given a luxury that murder victims are not. That luxury is the ability to continue living one's life if one wants to. Because of that, I would not call someone who commits suicide a victim. I consider suicide a victimless crime in the same class as drinking while underage.

 

If someone is driven to suicide by bullying or abuse from people outside of their home, I do not blame the bullies for the suicide. Someone who is a victim of bullying and commits suicide did not commit suicide as a direct result of the bullying. Not all victims of bullying commit suicide, and not all who commit suicide are victims of bullying. Bullies are guilty of being bad people, but they are not responsible for the choices of others. The burden is on the victim of bullying to remain uninfluenced and adapt to circumstances. If they feel that their environment is not for them, then they may endeavor to change it. Suicide is one of their ways out. I would rather kill those who make my life miserable than kill myself if basic manipulation and indifference did not help, but that choice does not occur to everyone.

 

Do not misunderstand. I respect the choice to commit suicide as well as the choice to  change the world around you. Nonetheless, whichever you choose, you are choosing to be bothered by the world. That is something you do not have to do. I respect that choice as much as either solution. That is what it means to have subjective values. But as a result, I cannot pass blame on anyone but the alleged victim.

 

Given the above, it goes without saying that not noticing or not caring about the stress that a particular person endures in no way earns blame. If I have no obligation to love someone, then I have no obligation to love them in a certain way, either. Since no one deserves any kind of treatment, neglect cannot be considered a crime. Not by me, at least.

Edited by Makaze, 06 March 2013 - 10:09 PM.

[Masked Rider]

Does anyone else here think suicide is over glorified by the media (or at least the American media)?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't deserve coverage, as it definitely does...but I feel like the infamy you get from it inspires already depressed people into doing it and not getting it themselves.

I think the news media doesn't have any better news to do, so they just cover whatever gets them views.

 

Well I think a minority of people commit suicide because it's "popular". I think suicide is actually tied to mental disorders, unemployment, sexual orientation, and pressure from society. I guess there are some individuals who would rather not bother with those that are clearly not in the best of positions. I think people who actually go through with it were never in the best mindset to decide whether or not they should have committed, no person wakes up in a comfortable position in life and decides to end it all, I think certain conditions come into play. Whether people are responsible, I suppose they aren't in different conditions if the person has no signs whatsoever about killing himself then there was nothing you could do, this person hid their cards close to their chest and didn't want anyone to stop him, but then there are always those with obvious tell tale signs of misery or even their speech patterns can especially be very telling, if the person is showing these signs, I've personally heard of a lot of "Horse Dung" being thrown around about people "faking" their depression or suicide threats and only feel it's legit when the person actually does it like it's fuel to the fire, why such negativity from someone who's issues may or may not be dire? To those who would just turn the other cheek, I guess you aren't to blamed, but you made a conscious choice not to help when someone wasn't having the best of their days. The little thing in our lives, having a conversation with an acquittance  can make our days just a little bit better. Knowing that you someone has taken a sudden interest in your well being can very well be the thing that stops them from going down that very road.

Edited by Masked Rider, 05 March 2013 - 11:29 PM.

[disastrousmaster]

That is actually the way to solve every problem in existance, just saying.
If someone does not want to live usually he or she leaves at least 10 warning signs before commiting the act. The person does not need therapy anymore than every one else in their life that just ignore the clear signs. This is a society problem. Everyone in someone's life is to blame when that someone commits suicide.

 

 

You know for sure when it's too late. Before then , its just about how good you are at understanding others. When people are involved no such scientific method exists. But for the teacher who does not take the problems of the child seriously, the kids who won't stop bullying, the parents who just have to many things going on to take a second look. Thoughts of killing ones self come when a person feels like they are powerless in a world that does not care.

 

In the end it is not for whom I would blame, every little role in a persons life is played by a person. It takes a combination of many of these small roles to push someone over the edge. Although there is always exceptions to the rule.

You say you arent pointing fingers but that is exactly what you are doing. By doing so you are indirectly pointing that finger at me and I am not happy about it in the least bit. I will not go into any further detail about this.

 

A person who commits suicide doesnt always show all of these signs you talk about. sometimes they dont show any signs at all. The ones who dont show signs are the ones who are trying to fight their depression on their own, without the aid of others. They wont look for help with it if they think they can beat it. The sad thing about it is that sometimes they lose that internal struggle and after the decision is made there isnt a thing anyone in their family, or any of their friends, can do about. As for the teachers and other things you cant expect everyone to always be on the alert for these things. you think that just by pointing a finger and saying bad that people will automatically be able to just know how to deal with these issues and will always see them. Nobody can be perfect. It is a physical impossibility and to blame people for being imperfect puts you on the same level as the bullies you talk down about. so dont spout off that nonsense to me.

 

Does anyone else here think suicide is over glorified by the media (or at least the American media)?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't deserve coverage, as it definitely does...but I feel like the infamy you get from it inspires already depressed people into doing it and not getting it themselves.

but i doubt they affect peoples decisions on commiting suicide but talking about it on the news is a thing that should have a families backing or not be talked mentioned at all.

 

Ah... Unpopular opinion time.

 

On the opening question: I do feel that sensationalizing suicides is detrimental and can make it seem like a good way to get attention.

 

On blame: The line between suicide and murder by others is not thin. If one takes their own life, they have decided to end their stay in this world based on subjective perceptions and evaluations of their life and environment. Every individual wants different things from their world, and not all get what they want. I cannot assert that everyone deserves what they wish to have. I cannot assert that even one person does. Someone who is has a higher level of happiness than most people but is not satisfied may threaten suicide with the same level of seriousness as someone who lives in absolute misery. Drawing a line between the two is arbitrary for the same that drawing a line between two bids on a painting and calling one of them more accurate is arbitrary.

 

I conclude that suicide is an individual choice. Murder happens when someone else takes away the subject's choice in the matter. Murder can happen to anyone with no relevance to their choices or how happy they are with their lives. Suicidal people are given a luxury that murder victims are not. That luxury is the ability to continue living one's life if one wants to. Because of that, I would not call someone who commits suicide a victim. I consider suicide a victimless crime in the same class as drinking while underage.

 

If someone is driven to suicide by bullying or abuse from people outside of their home, I do not blame the bullies for the suicide. Someone who is a victim of bullying and commits suicide did not commit suicide as a direct result of the bullying. Not all victims of bullying commit suicide, and not all who commit suicide are victims of bullying. Bullies are guilty of being bad people, but they are not responsible for the choices of others. The burden is on victim of bullying to remain uninfluenced and adapt to circumstances. If they feel that their environment is not for them, then they may endeavor to change it. Suicide is one of their ways out. I would rather kill those who make my life miserable than kill myself if basic manipulation and indifference did not help, but that choice does not occur to everyone.

 

Do not misunderstand. I respect the choice to commit suicide as well as the choice to change the world around you. Nonetheless, whichever you choose, you are choosing to be bothered by the world. That is something you do not have to do. I respect that choice as much as either solution. That is what it means to have subjective values. But as a result, I cannot pass blame on anyone but the alleged victim.

 

Given the above, it goes without saying that not noticing or not caring about the stress that a particular person endures in no way earns blame. If I have no obligation to love someone, then I have no obligation to love them in a certain way, either. Since no one deserves any kind of treatment, neglect cannot be considered a crime. Not by me, at least.

well said makaze i couldnt have put it better myself there

[Zeando]

premising that if we want to talk about suicides we've to distinguish the various different cases and motivations for which they can happen
some/many happen at the end of a depression, which may take some time to fully develop, or which may take some time while depressed to come across a shocking happening to make the person snap and suicide, but there must be other cases, some suicide for personal life matters, others for sentimental matters, others for economy/work/future matters, we come across it sometimes in mangas too about the japs, and probably there are also other causes less publicized and less known
 

You know for sure when it's too late. Before then , its just about how good you are at understanding others. When people are involved no such scientific method exists. But for the teacher who does not take the problems of the child seriously, the kids who won't stop bullying, the parents who just have to many things going on to take a second look. Thoughts of killing ones self come when a person feels like they are powerless in a world that does not care.
 
In the end it is not for whom I would blame, every little role in a persons life is played by a person. It takes a combination of many of these small roles to push someone over the edge. Although there is always exceptions to the rule.

 
if i'm to follow that line of reasoning, surely there is some apathy on the road for a suicide, mostly in the suicider, and also in the people around him/her, but there are other sides of the matter
 
one is that a person who's (really) leaning to be suicidal is in a weak state, maybe literally or maybe just because they believe to be so, and i agree someone who's feeling weak should be helped if s/he's not surrounded by only jerks
but the help should not become just pampering them, but should be instead helping them to grow out of it, to have them standing on their own legs and being able to face the problems by themselfes, removing all the problems or blaming only the problems around them only leads to pamper them in not growing and remaining weak so the moment you stop pampering them they may return to be depressed/suicidal

an other side is how the perception of a person changes when they're depressed
it could be possible someone very depressed (or in any other altered state) may not even recognize the help when they're receiving it, making it more hard for them to being affected by help, and for who is helping to being able to reach them

you could still argue the helpers are not doing their best in helping the suicider, but it's important to remember even the helpers can be weak, and being actually unable to understand what is going on, or having a limited empathy, or other problems
also people usually instinctively try to avoid problems, so if they start to see a person in a weak state or a possible suicider or just a depressed person as a problem, they may just instinctively start to ignore them, they may then rationalize it as "too much hassle" "everyone is free for him/herself", but they're just acting instinctively

so what is possible to do?
if you happen to see and recognize one case try to do your best
but for any case happening everywhere else, they're just tragic happenings, both for the lack of will of the suicider to live on, both for the inability of the bystanders to do anything about it
(well, i'm considering the unwillingness to help being part of the inability to help)

[Lone_ant]

http://www.preservea...y-durkheim.html

Ok, some quick sociology. Since we're talking about "kinds of suicide", Durkheim (the father of sociology), classified four back when he was trying to prove that suicide rates were affected by society.

 

(1) Egoistic suicide:

According to Durkheim, when a man becomes socially isolated or feels that he has no place in the society he destroys himself. This is the suicide of self-centred person who lacks altruistic feelings and is usually cut off from main stream of the society. Example, mass shooters who commit suicide etc.

(2) Altruistic suicide:

This type of suicide occurs when individuals and the group are too close and intimate. This kind of suicide results from the over integration of the individual into social proof, for example - Sati customs, Dannies warriors. Cult suicides.

(3) Anomic suicide:

This type of suicide is due to certain breakdown of social equilibrium, such as, suicide after bankruptcy or after winning a lottery. In other words, anomic suicide takes place in a situation which has cropped up suddenly. 

 

Ok, this is a rather simplistic idea of Anomy. The thing is, Anomy is defined as social instability, or feeling of purposelessness or emptiness due to  an erosion on social norms and values. The person is thus left floundering as if by himself when such sudden situations come up as their goals and aspirations aren't regulated to have particular accepted coping mechanisms. Example would be, very cosmopolitan societies where values and norms are completely relative and thus are useless as a social binding force. 

(4) Fatalistic suicide:

This type of suicide is due to overregulation in society. Under the overregulation of a society, when a servant or slave commits suicide, when a barren woman commits suicide, it is the example of fatalistic suicide. Another example would be suicide in a dictatorial regime because of said regulation.

 

Depending on the kind of society, there would be more or less of each kind of suicide. Sensationalistic suicide would fall under Altruistic suicide (since the purpose is to gain attention of the group), or Anomic suicide (since you are doing it without reference to values and norms).  If indeed, there is a rise in Sensationalistic suicide, then wouldnt it follow that the society that those suicides happen are societies that are Altruistic or Anomic? Of course, this is just one kind of typology and there are more out there, but I think this is a usefuln framework when discussing society in relation to suicide.

Edited by Lone_ant, 06 March 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[Lone_ant]

Definition of suicidal is just being able to seriously think of suicide as an option. It's pretty broad definition, but it's better than being too narrow. 

 

So just dramatizing suicidal already means suicidal tendencies (just because you dramatize doesn't mean that you just need to get over it) and the situation might worsen. 

 

I mean, take suicide bombers who are used as a military tactic by unscrupulous groups. The very nature of their suicide implies dramatization and heightened awareness not only of themselves as suicide bombers, but by the community with which they belong with. Cult mass suicides also are part of this phenomenon. Both kinds being Altruistic suicides according to Durheim. Definitely in these instances suicide is glorified.

 

The kind of suicide you are talking about I think would be Egoistic, Anomic, or Fatalistic suicide, depending on the society.

[ShinmenTakezo]

As someone who was suicidal at one point,  I have to agree with ZCOVerload.  Suicidal folks who are genuinely suicidal and want to kill themselves don't try to dramatize. The purpose of it is to end your life and that comes when you have no more hope left about things getting better. When I was about to do, I only left a couple of messages for my online buddies about it.  Thankfully, I ended up checking my messages before leaving and their words convinced me otherwise.  The question is; if you have lost all hope why would you make a spectacle of it when you believe that your death is only the action that will really matter? When I say this, I'm thinking of the people who threaten suicide such as scorned lovers and stalkers who aren't likely to follow up on their threats.  

 

 

I don't know what to say about the media's dramatization of suicide attempts, here I just think we need more dialogue being generated regar

Generally, i think you are right. People who contemplate about suicide, at least in most cases, have no desire to share their thoughts or try to get attention. I know of an example that is different though. A couple of years ago, a good friend of mine separated from his girlfriend, the latter broke up. After that he threatened her with his own suicide if she does not come back to him. She thought he was bluffing, he jumped out of the 7th floor.

 

On suicide in general: Call me naive, stupid or a brat if you want to but i find the option of suicide kind of soothing. I am still young, motivated, i went through hardships in my life while never contemplating about suicide  but find the idea that i could end my life whenever i want and on my own terms encouraging. It is like once i accepted death as a real possibility, something most people see as tabu, i could enjoy myself and my life much more to be honest.

Edited by AYAME, 11 March 2013 - 08:48 AM.