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#101 disastrousmaster

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:57 PM

That is one of those options that the volunteer didn't choose, and possibly couldn't (not everyone wanted to do that). Listing all of the other options doesn't change anything since I already covered what would happen if other options existed.

hmm, methinks that if not everyone wanted to do that, its more the others killing him than otherwise.


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#102 Makaze

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:00 PM

hmm, methinks that if not everyone wanted to do that, its more the others killing him than otherwise.

 

He could just starve and let them all starve with him, too. He is choosing the good of the many over the good of the one. He doesn't have to even if they won't help.


Edited by Makaze, 19 May 2013 - 08:00 PM.

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#103 inzaratha

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:31 AM

The whole thing is pretty broad cause there are many reasons for suicide and not all of them are young people being angsty and emo etc.

 

Generally speaking I tell people it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem,  which it is for most young people.

 

However I would definitely commit suicide myself if I was say diagnosed with a cancer that had a very large percentage of the people dying horribly from it.   In those cases actually I think that is far far preferrable and more courageous than the person who drains their families resorces with hospitalizations etc.   Here in America you could have your family go into poverty and debt trying to get cured and still die.   Therefore the person removing themselves from putting their family through that is actually doing better.   Same thing for me personally about aging past the point where you can do anything   - if you are going to live to be very old but not be in good health or able to do anything it would be better to take yourself out while you are still able than become a drain.   I for one would because I have seen the effects of such things ulterally ruining family fortunes for many many many people.    Rather I believe these people should be allowed to say they don't want to live anymore without anyone thinking anything bad of them,  I think it's the More courageous choice.   Of course it's not a choice anyone should make for another - if that person who is sick etc still find value in life then of course they should keep on living but if life is a greater burder than not then they should not be penalized for either choice. 

 

As for the cultural thing - if that is the more honorable choice in that person's culture -  I don't think most of us can be judgmental about that.   The highest form would be what makes that person's soul feel most at ease - whether that means fighting something out and conquering it as heroic or knowing that death is the more honorable heroic choice at times - either one might be what that person's soul needs to feel at peace and I don't think others have the right to be judging that as if they know where that person was in their own mind and heart when they made their choices.   Others are not in that person's shoes or in their soul so they should just  keep out of others; business. 

 

However the person saying they are going to commit suicide cause a guy broke up with them or they are just going through Temporary bad circumstances then no it is just being hysterical over dramatizing etc.   And in most cases of course it is the wrong choice - situations are just situations and situations change all the time. 

 

I've had lots of people say they wanted to kill themselves to me,  it's goes with my job.    Usually I find the right words.  

But right now I have one young man that I deal with that is more of a challenge.    Yet I have still found the right things to say to him and he is starting to come out of his depression, yet he still seeks me out as the one he wants to talk too.  His case is pretty dramatic -  he has no face,  his face was bitten off by a pitbull and he needs many surgeries,  he will probably need a full face transplant.   I just look in his eyes, which have more pain in them than I've seen in just about anyone's yet he is also still full of piss and vinegar to say he has a lot of attitude and can also be very funny, but that pulls him through it.    He uses shock tactics on people all the time to see if they can take it and most people can't -

 

I think that not just finding a person to talk to - but the Right person to talk to - whether that be a friend or a professional - is what most of them need -  and sometimes the professionals are not worth it and just finding the right person or persons somewhere -  and I mean face to face talking  not online - is the best cure.  ( and I am not talking romantic or anthing else just someone they can be honest with and who can deal with that )


Edited by inzaratha, 20 May 2013 - 01:33 AM.


#104 Zeando

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:43 AM

@Makaze
"You and I are not in disagreement. Machabees did not acknowledge that volunteering as a meal is suicide and you appeared to be coming to his defense on it. That's why I was confused."
 
yep, i find too he's making confusion between causes and solution chosen
 
to schematize it:
cause/ploblem --> desire to solve it
cause/problem ---(solution choosen)--> aim to solve the problem
solution choosen --> aim to fulfil the solution
 
as i'm understanding it the derise of death is the converted stress arising from the cause/problem
the conversion can happen thanks to the choice of killing oneself as solution

we all agree once given a problem the aim is to try to solve it
if one wants to add the concept of desire of death into it, then it's more into the solution choosen, than into the causes/problems
the choice of killing oneself as solution is like a door, if you keep it shut it won't matter the ammount of stress/problems you're facing, you'll have all the time to try to deal with them, and eventually solving them (and being still alive to enjoy the lack of problems)
 
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@inzaratha
"Here in America you could have your family go into poverty and debt trying to get cured and still die."

that's one downside of private health care, in other nations that's not an issue (or it's not an issue of the family alone)

i've heard the courage argument before, it can work both ways, it's like martyrdom, it's an interpretation/glorification of someone who died for any reason approved individually by the one interpreting


"I think that not just finding a person to talk to - but the Right person to talk to - whether that be a friend or a professional - is what most of them need - and sometimes the professionals are not worth it and just finding the right person or persons somewhere - and I mean face to face talking not online - is the best cure. ( and I am not talking romantic or anthing else just someone they can be honest with and who can deal with that )"

totally agree on that part, coming out of depression alone is a very hard feat (and very risky if it doesn't goes well)

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just got an other example, what would you guys think of a sick person of an uncurable(or hardly curable) deadly disease who choose to don't cure themself and just let the disease go on until they die?
would it be suicide?
if suicide, to be more specific, would it be suicidal suicide or unsuicidal suicide?

i'm on the fence about it, given the intention is always an important part
the disease being deadly or likely deadly may even make it not a suicide
but if it's a suicide i'm more for it being an unsuicidal suicide, cause the aim is not having to do all the cures, if the aim was killing oneself they would do it and not wait for the disease to continue
unless they're sort of twisted and their aim is dieing And doing it slowly, in that case it's suicidal suicide
me thinks

if the deadliness of the disease is so focal, what about same thing with an undeadly disease?
on this one i'm more to think it's suicide

Edited by Zeando, 20 May 2013 - 06:27 AM.