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[Character] Shiba "Kurosaki" Isshin (Part 3)


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#41 homeruz1

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:22 AM

Now dad IchiDad hs his powers back, why didnt he atleast help in the fight against Quincies in SS? Or maybe it means coz SS was somehow involved in the Masaki incident



#42 Damanos

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:26 AM

Now dad IchiDad hs his powers back, why didnt he atleast help in the fight against Quincies in SS? Or maybe it means coz SS was somehow involved in the Masaki incident

 

I don't think he or Urahara's crew found out in time, the attack happened pretty quickly and didn't last for that long. 


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#43 alekos23

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 02:29 PM

so,getsuga tenshou seems to be more based on the unreleased blade ? :rly:

in before Ishin tells ichigo what he thought was his bankai was merely his shikai :lmao: :hurr:


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#44 Shola

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 02:52 PM

in before Ishin tells ichigo what he thought was his bankai was merely his shikai :lmao: :hurr:


Oh god please don't get the boards started.

That sounds like some bs Kubez would pull too
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#45 ddboy102

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:04 AM

so maybe he can before the new 4th division captain.


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#46 BankaiFTW

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:26 PM

Just starting wonder, how is it that he knows what happened that day? He wasn't shown to be there in the flashback with Masaki and Ichigo. Or was it that someone other than he assailant was there, Urahara perhaps? If not, then how in the world does he know?


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#47 Milareppa

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:56 PM

That's always been the question. Urahara's always known, too. The reishi thread may have something to do with it, possibly. There was a thread attached to Masaki and one attached to the hollow. The hollow thread survived until Ichigo's hollow overpowered it and broke it (probably during the Byakuya fight). It's always been a puzzle how the adults know what happened when Ichigo's allegedly the only witness and even he doesn't know what happened that day. Hopefully, it's about to be answered because it's always been part of the mystery about how she died.


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#48 ddboy102

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:55 AM

One thing I don't get is why Isshin is so old looking in his shinigami form

 

he was in the human world for like 20 something years that shouldn't have been enough time for his shinigami self to age so much.


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#49 Relinquisher

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:05 AM

One thing I don't get is why Isshin is so old looking in his shinigami form

 

he was in the human world for like 20 something years that shouldn't have been enough time for his shinigami self to age so much.

 

He gave up his shinigami powers, so for all intensive purposes he was a human when he was with masaki. That means he aged like a human, and regardless of how aging works in SS, he was on earth as a human, thus when he got his powers back you could say that was his "true age" and even if he is now a shinigami again he still aged 20 years as a human.

 

Its debateable now if he will continue aging like a human or age like a shinigami, im more inclined to say shinigami since thats assumingly what he was born as, while ichigo still aged like a human (final release training) even though he was in shinigami form.


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#50 Haas

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 05:18 AM

Plus all that time he spent helping Ichigo train in the Dangai(?), he looked aged after that.



#51 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:17 AM

One thing I don't get is why Isshin is so old looking in his shinigami form

 

he was in the human world for like 20 something years that shouldn't have been enough time for his shinigami self to age so much.

 

Well, Isshin still had the soul of a Shinigami after he forfeited his powers, even if only partially. The special Gigai that Urahara gave to Isshin was said to have been made from a human soul, which basically transformed Isshin to a hybrid of a human and a Shinigami.


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#52 eemo23

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:38 PM

Well, Isshin still had the soul of a Shinigami after he forfeited his powers, even if only partially. The special Gigai that Urahara gave to Isshin was said to have been made from a human soul, which basically transformed Isshin to a hybrid of a human and a Shinigami.

 

Wow, I never realized that Isshin is now part human and shinigami. 

 

If he dies, does he get a second life and would he go to SS, or does his soul go to the place Yama and the other dead shinigami are, if there is a place for that?


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#53 Scorpion2k4u

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:20 AM

Isshin and ice brat might compliment each other very well in battle. I wonder if we will get to see that


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#54 uchiha jinrai

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:48 AM

One thing that still bothers me is the fall of the Shiba clan from nobility. Byakuya expresses a hatred, or at least dislike of the clan when he attacked Ganjuu. Do we have any leads as to why or when the clan was stripped of its nobility? I'm assuming that 110 years ago, during the Turn back the pendulum arc, they were still nobility, because of the scene where Kaien was being served tea by a servant. In the present timeline, the Shiba clan isn't shown to have much in the way of luxury. Aside from Koga and Shiro, I didn't note any servants and the housework was being done by Ganjuu's gang.

 

It couldn't have been because of Isshin's disappearance because he was said to be believed KIA. Toushiro was only made captain around the time the manga started so that's a good 20 or so years with someone else in charge. Could that have been Kuukaku? But the theory about her missing arm and the Ouken wouldn't fit into such a timeline and that theory sounds too solid to discount when forming mine.

 

The discrepancy comes up here- because Yoruichi left SS 100 years ago and didn't return until Ichigo-gumi invaded. So her knowledge of Kuukaku's moving house is from back then. It isn't unbelievable that Isshin, being the lazy person he was shown to be, let Kuukaku do as she pleased with the house- but it would make more sense for the moving house thing if it were to avoid society, as a direct result of their status as a fallen house.

 

It feels a lot like I'm missing a lot of info here or there are too many plotholes opened by adding Isshin to the Shiba family. Not that it's a plothole in itself. The art would back that up- Kuukaku does look like an older Karin and Kaien is supposed to resemble Ichigo. What I want to know is how the fall of the house would play in with the timeline.


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#55 Milareppa

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:34 PM

One thing that still bothers me is the fall of the Shiba clan from nobility. Byakuya expresses a hatred, or at least dislike of the clan when he attacked Ganjuu.


I'm not convinced that scene is related to the fall of the Shiba. It superficially looks like it should be, but I have a suspicion it might have more to do with Kaien's death. At that point, the issue between the Shiba siblings and Rukia had not been resolved; Rukia's immediate conclusion on seeing Ganju was to expect him to avenge Kaien's death. I suspect Byakuya's reaction may have been based on the same conclusion. He may not have been able to protect her from the execution itself, but he did seem to be protecting her where he could. That appears (to me) to be why he was so unrelenting over Ichigo stealing Rukia's power as well.

His decision to turn back and give Ganju a proper death with his sword is actually a sign of respect for the Shiba family, even if he was rather brutal about how he did it.
 

Do we have any leads as to why or when the clan was stripped of its nobility?


Short answer is 'no'. Nothing solid anyway. There are things like the mystery of the pre-TBTP tenth division captain's death (the person we think Isshin replaced). We don't even know if that person was a Shiba, however, let alone how they died or how long before TBTP they died. So that's all guesswork, too.
 

I'm assuming that 110 years ago, during the Turn back the pendulum arc, they were still nobility, because of the scene where Kaien was being served tea by a servant.


That 'servant' was a member of the 13th division. They were at the 13th division and Ukitake was try to woo Kaien into becoming his vice-captain. That scene had nothing to do with Kaien's noble status and was more about Ukitake's position as captain of the 13th division.

Also, during TBTP, we learn about Maggot's Nest and a bit more about the relationship between the Second Division and the Covert Ops when Urahara updates Hiyori. The Great Noble Clans are referred to as the 'Four Great Noble Clans'. Until the Shiba clan was removed from its status, it used to be the 'Five Great Noble Clans'. When the Shiba clan fell, it became the 'Four Great Noble Clans'. For TBTP to be mentioning 'four' instead of 'five' the indication is that the Shiba clan fell before TBTP.
 

In the present timeline, the Shiba clan isn't shown to have much in the way of luxury. Aside from Koga and Shiro, I didn't note any servants and the housework was being done by Ganjuu's gang.


Ganju's gang are friends. After the Shiba's fall, the household servants abandoned the clan with the exception of the two big bulky servants whose names I've currently forgotten.
 

Toushiro was only made captain around the time the manga started so that's a good 20 or so years with someone else in charge.


We don't know when exactly Hitsugaya became captain but it wasn't at the start of the manga. He's very much indicated to have been the captain who replaced Isshin. How quickly, however, we don't know. The Masked databook indicates that Hitsugaya and Matsumoto were both in the running but some things happened that meant it had to be Hitsugaya who became captain... it doesn't explain what happened, however.
 

The discrepancy comes up here- because Yoruichi left SS 100 years ago and didn't return until Ichigo-gumi invaded.


That's not entirely true. When Byakuya and Renji came to the World of the Living looking for Rukia they were preceded by Yoruichi (in cat form) turning up on Urahara's doorstep to warn him about what was going to happen. Jinta and Ururu had no idea who Yoruichi was and had never met her before, and it was also indicated that Urahara hadn't seen Yoruichi for a long time. The implication was that Yoruichi had been dwelling in Soul Society, remaining in cat form to escape detection.

Later on in the Soul Society arc, that secret cave Ichigo heals in looks like a place that's being lived in, including Yoruichi's stock of clothing, it even contained a sword that is theorised to be Yoruichi's zanpakutou. We also know Yoruichi hadn't been in human form for a long time because that was her reason given for forgetting that she didn't have clothes on when she transformed in front of Ichigo. Urahara's base of operations also remained the West Rukongai, and since he couldn't travel there himself, someone else would have had to maintain that connection.

So, we don't fully know how Yoruichi spent the hundred years or where, but there's a strong implication that she spent an awful lot of that time in cat form acting as Urahara's eyes and ears in Soul Society.
 

It isn't unbelievable that Isshin, being the lazy person he was shown to be, let Kuukaku do as she pleased with the house- but it would make more sense for the moving house thing if it were to avoid society, as a direct result of their status as a fallen house.


The implication is that the reason the house keeps moving is because it's so garish the communities are too embarrassed to have the house around them for long. It's a building that refuses to conform and that matters in more traditional Japanese societies - that's why there was a joke about Uryuu and Ichigo not wanting to be seen entering the house.

A possible hidden reason for the house to keep moving is the connection between the family and the Royal Guard which was only revealed in the final arc. If they really are the back up for getting back into the Royal Realm, staying on the move makes sure they're hard for people to find them, so not an easy option for hijacking should anyone take it upon themselves to try and get into the Royal Realm.

Edited by Milareppa, 23 June 2013 - 06:44 PM.

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#56 urie12

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:52 PM

Also, during TBTP, we learn about Maggot's Nest and a bit more about the relationship between the Second Division and the Covert Ops when Urahara updates Hiyori. The Great Noble Clans are referred to as the 'Four Great Noble Clans'. Until the Shiba clan was removed from its status, it used to be the 'Five Great Noble Clans'. When the Shiba clan fell, it became the 'Four Great Noble Clans'. For TBTP to be mentioning 'four' instead of 'five' the indication is that the Shiba clan fell before TBTP.

I am sorry but I have to fact check you. the TBTP never mention the 4 Great Noble Clans. When the Shiba clan fell is still an unsolved mystery.



#57 DarkNemesis

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 11:37 PM

Isshin and ice brat might compliment each other very well in battle. I wonder if we will get to see that

 

Oh yes. Stern Ritter beware! Beware of the 'Takai' Special! :lol:


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#58 Milareppa

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

I am sorry but I have to fact check you. the TBTP never mention the 4 Great Noble Clans. When the Shiba clan fell is still an unsolved mystery.


Yes, it did. Volume 36, Chapter -106: 'Turn Back the Pendulum 3'. I'll give you the Viz quote and link you to two different fan translations as well:

'The Secret Remote Squad. It was not originally affiliated with the Thirteen Court Guard Companies. However, members of the Shihouin family, one of the four great noble families possessing soul reaper powers, have served as its directors for generations.'

Here's the Binktopia translation and the CNet translation.


Edited by Milareppa, 26 June 2013 - 03:19 PM.


#59 uchiha jinrai

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:10 PM

A. I'm not convinced that scene is related to the fall of the Shiba. It superficially looks like it should be, but I have a suspicion it might have more to do with Kaien's death. At that point, the issue between the Shiba siblings and Rukia had not been resolved; Rukia's immediate conclusion on seeing Ganju was to expect him to avenge Kaien's death. I suspect Byakuya's reaction may have been based on the same conclusion. He may not have been able to protect her from the execution itself, but he did seem to be protecting her where he could. That appears (to me) to be why he was so unrelenting over Ichigo stealing Rukia's power as well.

His decision to turn back and give Ganju a proper death with his sword is actually a sign of respect for the Shiba family, even if he was rather brutal about how he did it.
 

Short answer is 'no'. Nothing solid anyway. There are things like the mystery of the pre-TBTP tenth division captain's death (the person we think Isshin replaced). We don't even know if that person was a Shiba, however, let alone how they died or how long before TBTP they died. So that's all guesswork, too.
 

B. That 'servant' was a member of the 13th division. They were at the 13th division and Ukitake was try to woo Kaien into becoming his vice-captain. That scene had nothing to do with Kaien's noble status and was more about Ukitake's position as captain of the 13th division.

Also, during TBTP, we learn about Maggot's Nest and a bit more about the relationship between the Second Division and the Covert Ops when Urahara updates Hiyori. The Great Noble Clans are referred to as the 'Four Great Noble Clans'. Until the Shiba clan was removed from its status, it used to be the 'Five Great Noble Clans'. When the Shiba clan fell, it became the 'Four Great Noble Clans'. For TBTP to be mentioning 'four' instead of 'five' the indication is that the Shiba clan fell before TBTP.
 

Ganju's gang are friends. After the Shiba's fall, the household servants abandoned the clan with the exception of the two big bulky servants whose names I've currently forgotten.
 

C. We don't know when exactly Hitsugaya became captain but it wasn't at the start of the manga. He's very much indicated to have been the captain who replaced Isshin. How quickly, however, we don't know. The Masked databook indicates that Hitsugaya and Matsumoto were both in the running but some things happened that meant it had to be Hitsugaya who became captain... it doesn't explain what happened, however.
 

That's not entirely true. When Byakuya and Renji came to the World of the Living looking for Rukia they were preceded by Yoruichi (in cat form) turning up on Urahara's doorstep to warn him about what was going to happen. Jinta and Ururu had no idea who Yoruichi was and had never met her before, and it was also indicated that Urahara hadn't seen Yoruichi for a long time. The implication was that Yoruichi had been dwelling in Soul Society, remaining in cat form to escape detection.

Later on in the Soul Society arc, that secret cave Ichigo heals in looks like a place that's being lived in, including Yoruichi's stock of clothing, it even contained a sword that is theorised to be Yoruichi's zanpakutou. We also know Yoruichi hadn't been in human form for a long time because that was her reason given for forgetting that she didn't have clothes on when she transformed in front of Ichigo. Urahara's base of operations also remained the West Rukongai, and since he couldn't travel there himself, someone else would have had to maintain that connection.

So, we don't fully know how Yoruichi spent the hundred years or where, but there's a strong implication that she spent an awful lot of that time in cat form acting as Urahara's eyes and ears in Soul Society.
 

The implication is that the reason the house keeps moving is because it's so garish the communities are too embarrassed to have the house around them for long. It's a building that refuses to conform and that matters in more traditional Japanese societies - that's why there was a joke about Uryuu and Ichigo not wanting to be seen entering the house.

A possible hidden reason for the house to keep moving is the connection between the family and the Royal Guard which was only revealed in the final arc. If they really are the back up for getting back into the Royal Realm, staying on the move makes sure they're hard for people to find them, so not an easy option for hijacking should anyone take it upon themselves to try and get into the Royal Realm.

Astute as always. I'm not sure how to break up the quotes so I'll just mark what I'll reference from your post.

 

A. The scene where Byakuya says he will properly deal with Ganjuu came off as hostile to me, it didn't really look like he was showing any respect- especially considering the kind of person Byakuya was back then. It's hard to imagine him respecting anyone but the elders of his clan and maybe Genryuusai too.

 

B. Do we know for certain that it was at the 13th Division HQ? I don't remember anything mentioned regarding their location in that page. The setting and tone of the scene made it seem like it was the Shiba residence. Of course, my memory could be wrong. And please link me to a source mentioning Five Great Noble clans. I have only ever read about four so far. Even then, we only know of three. Kuchiki, Shiba and Shihouin. The wikia has other names as well, I think- but I don't know what is considered canon and what is not.

 

C. The big meeting scene after Rukia was taken back to SS, when Rangiku enters, Renji asks who her captain is. Judging from that we can safely assume it hasn't been very long since Toushiro was made captain- it was shown that Renji was made VC on the day Rukia left for Karakura Town so he was last shown to be in SS 2-3 months before that scene. Isshin was gone long before then so it is indeed a fairly recent appointment. This is besides what we're trying to find out though. Just thought I'd correct you.

 

As far as the rest goes, I'll defer to your arguments. Heck, it could even turn out that the Shiba clan gave up their position willingly so as to be able to freely move around to protect the passage into the Spirit King's realm and the "fall" is a fabricated story to explain their situation.


Edited by uchiha jinrai, 26 June 2013 - 04:11 PM.

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#60 Milareppa

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 05:40 PM

My browser crashed so I lost everything. Here I go again...
 

A. The scene where Byakuya says he will properly deal with Ganjuu came off as hostile to me, it didn't really look like he was showing any respect- especially considering the kind of person Byakuya was back then. It's hard to imagine him respecting anyone but the elders of his clan and maybe Genryuusai too.


The reason I mentioned how brutal he was, is precisely so that my post didn't come across as me trying to dismiss his hostility. Etiquette can be observed even with an enemy. That's what Byakuya was doing. He's always observed etiquette.
 

B. Do we know for certain that it was at the 13th Division HQ? I don't remember anything mentioned regarding their location in that page. The setting and tone of the scene made it seem like it was the Shiba residence. Of course, my memory could be wrong.


Nothing is said. It's my interpretation of the scenery in the panels which was fairly typical for divisional buildings. They were serving tea but Ukitake was behaving like a host... he was the one wooing Kaien. Also, the girl that served them was a shinigami, she was wearing a shinigami uniform.
 

And please link me to a source mentioning Five Great Noble clans. I have only ever read about four so far. Even then, we only know of three. Kuchiki, Shiba and Shihouin. The wikia has other names as well, I think- but I don't know what is considered canon and what is not.


If the wiki has mentioned there are more than three (out of five) names revealed, they're not quoting canon. There are only three names revealed so far. There are only two from the current four revealed so far.

In the manga, the closest to a discussion on this occurs in Chapter 154 during the Yoruichi/Soifon fight, where it's mentioned there are four families and that the Shiba fell. It doesn't clarify that there were five until the Shiba fell, however.

In the Souls databook, there's an interview with Kubo and Morita (Ichigo's voice actor) where the subject is covered. It's on pg 245:

Morita: 'There are also the Four Great Aristocratic Families. What are aristocrats?'
Interviewer: 'The Kuchiki family, the Shihouin family... and the Shiba family?'
Kubo: 'The Shiba family isn't one of them. When the Shiba family was one of them, they were called the Five Great Aristocratic Families.'

 

C. The big meeting scene after Rukia was taken back to SS, when Rangiku enters, Renji asks who her captain is. Judging from that we can safely assume it hasn't been very long since Toushiro was made captain- it was shown that Renji was made VC on the day Rukia left for Karakura Town so he was last shown to be in SS 2-3 months before that scene. Isshin was gone long before then so it is indeed a fairly recent appointment. This is besides what we're trying to find out though. Just thought I'd correct you.


Renji knew who Hitsugaya was, he just didn't know which captain was Matsumoto's captain. Iba, who was also indicated to have become a vice-captain relatively recently (earlier than Renji, but it was his first time wearing the vice-captain's badge, too), and he was the one who answered Renji's question about Matsumoto's captain being Hitsugaya. In the early phases of the Soul Society arc, there was a strong indication the Divisions didn't have much to do with each other. Ikkaku had no problem lying to a captain that wasn't his own (Mayuri) and Mayuri was reprimanded for attempting to punish a shinigami who was not from his division. Knowledge of other divisions did seem relatively limited. Nevertheless, Ganju, who lived in the Rukongai, knew who Byakuya and Kenpachi were (while Byakuya is the most famous captain, Kenpachi doesn't quite have that level of fame).

Edited by Milareppa, 26 June 2013 - 05:41 PM.

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