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[Group] The Stern Ritter (Part 2)


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#81 grimmjow16

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:33 PM

Royd Lloyd had the letter "Y", yet he may have been the one that beat Zaraki, now how can Royd who is "ranked" "Y" defeat Zaraki who killed three stronger SR like they are nothing?

 

The only thing that makes sense would be that Bach defeated Zaraki and not Royd.

That's the "hiccup" in all this.

One Stern Ritter Y was apparently Stronger than the other since Zaraki easily wiped the floor with Loyd, but Royd seemingly beat him pretty easy.

But there was also the same problem in the Espada since some of the higher ranked Espada seemed weaker than some of the lower ranked Espada.

I myself still find problems with Yammy being Cero Espada tbh.


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#82 Milareppa

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:05 PM

Recent chapters made me wonder if their letter really corresponds to just their power, or it is also assigned with regards to their rank.
 
Ywach is Stern Ritter A, no idea what the A stands for but he is without doubt the strongest of the bunch.
Haschwald is Stern Ritter B and also the next in line to be king, meaning he is most likely stronger than all of the others.
Also, Bazz-B's entire demeanor changing as soon as Nakk Le Vaar showed up, was just weird IMO.
I mean, Grimmjow was ready to fight Ulquiorra in the same sence that Bazz-B seemed ready to take on Haschwald, but the moment another "top ranking" Stern Ritter showed up, he settled down.
This was before he even explained about the other guy watching them. 


While there might be a power link between the letter and the strength of a couple of Stern Ritter, I'm not convinced this can be used as a general rule. With the sole exception of Uryuu who has been confirmed to be potentially able to surpass Yhwach in some way (the manga hasn't actually told us in what way), we've only received a confirmation that there's some kind of social link to a couple of Stern Ritter letters: Haschwalth, Uryuu and Yhwach, the Next King, the Successor and the Emperor, having the top two letters between the three of them.

And that itself doesn't tell us much about their powers or strength.

It could be that their letters are related to their importance to the future of the quincies... which might be independent of power level for some and depend on strength length for some. Even then, there's a problem with that idea, too.

So, right now, I'm not sure we can make the claim the letters denote the strength of the quincy at a group level.

#83 Skyler

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:13 PM

To me, it looks like in the beginning Kubo used the letter to describes the power of each SternRitter and on a later date, he retconned it to be a hierarchical ranking system instead. :shrug:



#84 OrangeMage

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:19 PM

I don't think its a full hierarchy. Some of them have letters according to power with Bach being A and Hachwald being B and maybe the next 8 or so, but the rest maybe not.  


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#85 Tom Ace

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:34 PM

That's the "hiccup" in all this.

One Stern Ritter Y was apparently Stronger than the other since Zaraki easily wiped the floor with Loyd, but Royd seemingly beat him pretty easy.

But there was also the same problem in the Espada since some of the higher ranked Espada seemed weaker than some of the lower ranked Espada.

I myself still find problems with Yammy being Cero Espada tbh.

 

The God of shinigami and the immortal Bishie fought him sooooo.............


Edited by Tom Ace, 05 July 2013 - 10:36 PM.

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#86 Kensei13

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:47 AM

That's the "hiccup" in all this.

One Stern Ritter Y was apparently Stronger than the other since Zaraki easily wiped the floor with Loyd, but Royd seemingly beat him pretty easy.

But there was also the same problem in the Espada since some of the higher ranked Espada seemed weaker than some of the lower ranked Espada.

I myself still find problems with Yammy being Cero Espada tbh.

 

 

It's worth noting that it was kind of implied  that the Stern Ritters weren't fighting seriously. In chapter 502, after Haschwalth felt Byakuya's reiatsu faded, he remarked that it is dragging on or the battles are taking longer than expected(Viz). Fake Yhwach's response was that the Stern Ritters only flaw is that they are too permissive. MS translated it as naivete was their flaw, so that works to, I guess.

Spoiler

 

By coincidence, after he said that, here comes Kenpachi, out of nowhere, carrying 3 dead SRs above his shoulders, which only reaffirm what Yhwach(Royd) and Haschwalth were previously saying.

Spoiler

 

We learned in chapter 503 that Stern Ritter Q wasn't even fighting, and basically spent the time explaining her or his abilities to Kenpachi. Stern Ritter R was roaring most of time. The only one that put up a fight out of the bunch by Kenpachi's own admission was Stern Ritter Y Loyd. Unfortunately, Loyd was imitating Kenpachi, who we know was severely suppressing his power.at the time. So even though he put up a fight, given that he was imitating someone who subconsciously was suppressing his own power, it implies that Loyd's own power was being suppressed as well

Spoiler

 

Kenpachi being the big shot after killing 3 SRs thought he could take on the boss, who was later revealed actually to be none other than  Stern Ritter Y Royd, Loyd's younger brother. Oh, the irony. 

 

Royd was imitating Yhwach at the time he put Kenpachi to sleep. However, his imitation abilities only extends to copying appearance, memory, and mentality. So, that pretty much tells us he wasn't borrowing the real Yhwach's power, at least in terms of power level.

 

He pretty much said it when he apologized that his power isn't enough in ch. 509

Spoiler

 

In conclusion, there is a high possibility that Loyd was as strong as Royd, the one who defeated Kenpachi. Unfortunately he imitated the wrong person, rather than using his true power.


Edited by Kensei13, 06 July 2013 - 02:19 AM.

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#87 Milareppa

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:03 AM

To me, it looks like in the beginning Kubo used the letter to describes the power of each SternRitter and on a later date, he retconned it to be a hierarchical ranking system instead. :shrug:


There's no indication that Kubo's stopped using the letters to represent a key ability of each of the Stern Ritter. And we've never been able to tell if the letters were ever linked to how powerful or dangerous an individual Stern Ritter was compared to the other Stern Ritter. As a result, I think claiming a retcon has happened is a little premature. Not having all the facts from the outset does not equal a retcon. The only thing changing right now are fandom theories, not story facts, and not all the fans have needed to change their theories either.

Edited by Milareppa, 06 July 2013 - 06:04 AM.

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#88 Candybane

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:40 AM

While there might be a power link between the letter and the strength of a couple of Stern Ritter, I'm not convinced this can be used as a general rule. With the sole exception of Uryuu who has been confirmed to be potentially able to surpass Yhwach in some way (the manga hasn't actually told us in what way), we've only received a confirmation that there's some kind of social link to a couple of Stern Ritter letters: Haschwalth, Uryuu and Yhwach, the Next King, the Successor and the Emperor, having the top two letters between the three of them.

And that itself doesn't tell us much about their powers or strength.

It could be that their letters are related to their importance to the future of the quincies... which might be independent of power level for some and depend on strength length for some. Even then, there's a problem with that idea, too.

So, right now, I'm not sure we can make the claim the letters denote the strength of the quincy at a group level.

I actually like this idea better than it simply beig about power. From the the two that have been shown (Bach and Haschwalth) there comes a sense of maturity and understanding from them. While Bach is definitely the most powerful (unless a plot twist comes along) and Haschwalth seems incredibly powerful, they both have the personalities to readily lead an army. Juha through fear and possibly respect, while Haschwalth certainly has their loyalty and "love." The supposed "C" that fought Shunsui was calm and collected, assessing the enemy and finding a way to take them down. For these three, they contain power and certain qualities a leader needs to have.
As others have noted, the thing that most throws us off is the "Y" being able to fight against Zaraki who had defeated three other Stern Ritter. My personal opinion is that the Fake Bach may not have had the complete power of juha himself (or else he'd be capable of overthrowing Juha Bach) but enough to defeat Zaraki. It's possible he can only emulate a certain level of power of who he's copying/impersonating.

Edited by Candybane, 06 July 2013 - 08:40 AM.


#89 Milareppa

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:11 AM

I think there's something about the fake Bach situation that we haven't been told. The entire situation involving Royd, Juhabach, Aizen, Kenpachi, Yamamoto and the three apparently suicidal Stern Ritters is hazy. I think Kubo may revisit this in some way in the future. Something triggered those three Stern Ritter to jump Yamamoto, something weird happened when Yamamoto died, Aizen did something weird to Juhabach and Haschwalth knew about it despite not being anywhere near Juhabach and Aizen when they met.

 

I think a few things occurred during that invasion that Kubo will be revisiting at a later date.

 

In terms of Stern Ritters with an apparently different feel to them, as well as Haschwalth and Commissioner Gordon, I'd include Askin as well. We've already seen that Haschwalth seems to know things other Stern Ritters don't, but Askin's comment to Haschwalth implies that whatever Haschwalth knows, Askin may be in on it... Askin is D. So, yes, I do think there's a very good chance that the new captain-commander's opponent was C. If so, that begs the question of who Askin is, given that it feels as though Kubo's singling him out in some way from the outset as well.


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#90 Blackody

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:03 AM

Royd Lloyd had the letter "Y", yet he may have been the one that beat Zaraki, now how can Royd who is "ranked" "Y" defeat Zaraki who killed three stronger SR like they are nothing?

 

The only thing that makes sense would be that Bach defeated Zaraki and not Royd.

 

 

I don't think its a full hierarchy. Some of them have letters according to power with Bach being A and Hachwald being B and maybe the next 8 or so, but the rest maybe not.  

I'll have to agree with OrangeMage here, besides the Arrancar too had a similar ranking.
1 through 10 were ranked according to power and 11-?? were ranked according to the time of their Arrancar-fication (i know that's not a legit word).
Shawlong was #11 because he was the 11th hollow who was arrancar-fied by the Hougyoku.But he was nowhere near Yammy's power.
Let's use some examples.
Pow (the arrancar whose Resureccion was a whale) was put down by a captain (Komamura) using Bankai!
Ggio Vega put up a pretty good close quarters combat with freaking Soi-Fon.
Wonderweiss (albeit a modded arrancar) fought with Yammamoto and managed to defeat a captain(Kensei) off-panel.
And don't forget Allon/Ayon (who's special though) with his insane power(he fodderised 4 Vice Captains) and endurance (he tanked 2 hits from Yammamoto's shikai).


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#91 Ultrafragor

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:09 AM

I think you guys are forgetting how experience factors in.

Royd would have gained all of Yhwach's battle experience along with his memories. Thousands of years of experience could have him a step above Zaraki.

He was matching Yamamoto in their fight in terms of move choices. His attacks were just too weak. It's not like he was being caught by surprise and failing to react to or counter Yama's attacks. He just didn't have any effective options.

He might have actually beat Yamamoto too if he was allowed to steal Yama's bankai.

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#92 Kensei13

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 12:51 PM

I think you guys are forgetting how experience factors in.

Royd would have gained all of Yhwach's battle experience along with his memories. Thousands of years of experience could have him a step above Zaraki.

 

Good point.  It's kind of similar to Book of End. Tsukishima  gained all knowledge of Senbonzakura, giving him the ability to counter it in shikai and bankai.
 

He was matching Yamamoto in their fight in terms of move choices. His attacks were just too weak. It's not like he was being caught by surprise and failing to react to or counter Yama's attacks. He just didn't have any effective options.

He might have actually beat Yamamoto too if he was allowed to steal Yama's bankai.

 

 

 But even if he had stolen the bankai, he wouldn't be able to use it to his own benefit because he lack the necessary power/skill to control it. That is why Yhwach told him to not do anything until he returned.


Edited by Kensei13, 06 July 2013 - 12:52 PM.

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#93 Ultrafragor

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 12:58 PM

 But even if he had stolen the bankai, he wouldn't be able to use it to his own benefit because he lack the necessary power/skill to control it. That is why Yhwach told him to not do anything until he returned.

 

Yes, but given the he was able to block Ryuu Jinn Jakka with his Blut, he more than likely would have been able to do some damage to Yamamoto while Yama was only using that level of power to fight him.

 

And we don't know if he still had a Vollstaendig to use.


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#94 Kensei13

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:48 PM

Yes, but given the he was able to block Ryuu Jinn Jakka with his Blut, he more than likely would have been able to do some damage to Yamamoto while Yama was only using that level of power to fight him.

 

And we don't know if he still had a Vollstaendig to use.

 Speaking of Vollstandig or Letzt Stil, I noticed quite a few of the Stern Ritters weren't wearing a glove, not even the few that were killed. It makes me wonder how prevalent will it be in future fights. Yhwach(past and present) doesn't wear one; Haschwalth doesn't wear one. Even 20 years ago, Ryuuken wasn't shown wearing the Sanrei Glove.


Edited by Kensei13, 06 July 2013 - 01:56 PM.

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#95 Ankit

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:52 PM

Amazing , so Oda says Stark is alive ! :o

 

I mean KUBO. :lol:

Oda wouldn't kill Stark DDDD:

 

Good guy Oda :,(


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#96 Milareppa

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:13 PM

I think you guys are forgetting how experience factors in.

Royd would have gained all of Yhwach's battle experience along with his memories. Thousands of years of experience could have him a step above Zaraki.


I personally believe that Yhwach's 'heart' would have been absolutely vital for Royd at the time, which means that in essence I agree that Yhwach's memories, experiences, his way of thinking, would have been extremely valuable for Royd.

However, I'm not sure we can say Yhwach has thousands of years of experience. Out of the past thousand years, Yhwach's apparently been sealed for 999 of them (and if the time limit hints are anything to go by, there's an indication that he's not entirely unsealed right now). As a result, we have no idea how old Yhwach is. There's now a valid option for him having a normal human lifespan but still being over a thousand years old. We need to know more about the man.
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#97 Satan

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:28 PM

The Bach/Royd thing is just as confusing as the Aizen/Momo thing. Don't try to figure it out. 


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#98 Ultrafragor

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:33 PM

I personally believe that Yhwach's 'heart' would have been absolutely vital for Royd at the time, which means that in essence I agree that Yhwach's memories, experiences, his way of thinking, would have been extremely valuable for Royd.

However, I'm not sure we can say Yhwach has thousands of years of experience. Out of the past thousand years, Yhwach's apparently been sealed for 999 of them (and if the time limit hints are anything to go by, there's an indication that he's not entirely unsealed right now). As a result, we have no idea how old Yhwach is. There's now a valid option for him having a normal human lifespan but still being over a thousand years old. We need to know more about the man.

 

If he regained his heartbeat a century ago then  he shouldn't look to be in his 40s and be able to move so well. Whatever age he was before the seal, the century that his heart has been working for after he escaped from that part of the seal, should have used up his normal human lifespan.


 Speaking of Vollstandig or Letzt Stil, I noticed quite a few of the Stern Ritters weren't wearing a glove, not even the few that were killed. It makes me wonder how prevalent will it be in future fights. Yhwach(past and present) doesn't wear one; Haschwalth doesn't wear one. Even 20 years ago, Ryuuken wasn't shown wearing the Sanrei Glove.

 

We just don't know yet. It's logical to think that they would have it, but it's not necessarily true.

 

Right now the scale is tipping a little more towards them all having it rather than not.


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#99 Skyler

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:09 PM

There's no indication that Kubo's stopped using the letters to represent a key ability of each of the Stern Ritter. And we've never been able to tell if the letters were ever linked to how powerful or dangerous an individual Stern Ritter was compared to the other Stern Ritter. As a result, I think claiming a retcon has happened is a little premature. Not having all the facts from the outset does not equal a retcon. The only thing changing right now are fandom theories, not story facts, and not all the fans have needed to change their theories either.

 

How I process information is really slow, so I'm still in the middle of figuring out what you meant with this post. All I understood is that claiming it a retcon was premature. Okay, I guess I used the world incorrectly, I meant that according to what happened in the manga lately it seems that the use of the letter shifted from describing a SternRitter's power to a hierarchical system; but I never meant to make it sound like a fact in my post, I actually tend to be very careful about it. Also, I never stated that the letter could represent how powerful or dangerous a SR could be, just that at the beginning, it was used to describe the power the SternRitter has; for example, As Nodt  F of Fear, etc.  


Edited by Skyler, 06 July 2013 - 03:10 PM.


#100 DarkNemesis

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:12 PM

The Bach/Royd thing is just as confusing as the Aizen/Momo thing. Don't try to figure it out. 

 

The Bach/Royd thing is far easier to wrap your head around than the Aizen/Momo thing. A/M is a near-impossibility whereas B/R at least can be reasoned out. The only thing you have to give Juhabach is superspeed.


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