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#1 DaEvilWithin

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 12:11 AM

Warning: This will be slightly ranty.
 
By DEW standards, anyways.
---
There were complaints that the overall quality of OMF's has decreased. I wholeheartedly agree. The Big Three haven't given people much to work with, but damn if there hasn't been some low-effort posting going on lately. I'm not saying that people have to put as much effort as the people in the examples I have linked below have put. If all you have to say is 'Good chapter', go ahead and do so. If you're running around starting 'debates' with the same empty criticisms? No. Bad.
 
Obviously this isn't a directed criticism against the people reading this. This is half a rant and half a 'guide' (I use this loosely as there is no 'proper' way). What I have now is how I go about it and I'm interested in how others conduct their analysis.

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Why You're Wrong

You could simplify our relationship with media to a simple two-way street: the authors intentions and the reader's interpretations. In truth, our relationship with media is much more complicated than that. How you feel about media depends on where you are in life, how much like media you've consumed, your personal beliefs, and much more. That means a lot of what we consider good -- characters, aesthetic, plot -- is mostly subjective. That means telling someone X is better because the characters are better is kind of a terrible point.

 

Some people think Death Note has deep, complex, characters and a great plot. I think the characters are shallow and the plot boring. That doesn't mean I'm right and people are wrong (although, to be fair, I'm always right). It just means I don't like it. This brings me to another point: liking something really doesn't make you a better/worse person. Enjoying Vagabond doesn't make you a better person than someone who likes Sword Art Online. It just means you appreciate different things.

 

You can also like and dislike a piece of work. I don't know why most of the forum defaults to binary assumptions. Just because a part is criticized does not mean they hate the whole. I love the mythology and cinematic style of Bleach. Of the long running shounen out there it's really second to none in those departments. But that doesn't mean I don't hate it when most of the fights follow the same generic formula and when Kubo takes seven years to do anything. Also the end to the Fullbringer arc is retarded. And fuck Kubophysics. I digress.

 

Ultimately people's opinion on media are meaningless. Yes, how you feel about a series is often a reflection of your personal identity, but that doesn't have to mean anything if you don't want it to. I'm not advocating not caring about what you watch -- because that is the complete opposite of what this rant is about -- but to not to take it to heart. There are a lot of people who blindly and immediately jump to the defense of their favourite authors. There are also a lot of people who continually spout the same 'criticism' without actually being open to discussion or debate. That in itself is not only pointless, but annoying. Stop being annoying.

 

Why Your Posts Matter

But DEW? Didn't you just say our opinions are meaningless? Well, yes. Whether you like moe blobs or grimdark isn't going to change the world. But just because they don't mean anything doesn't mean they can't have significance to the people who are receiving them. And that is why I'd like to stress the importance of critical analysis (almost getting to the topic of the post). It's fine and dandy to simply state that you like X and hate Y, but that really isn't going to convince anyone of anything. Of course not everyone intends to convince, but what's the point of being in a forum if you're just going to state your opinion and walk away?

 

Unlike your tastes what you post is reflective of you, and in turn, reflective of the forum. Try and make it a good reflection.

 

Examples of good posts:
http://onemangaforum...ssion/?p=598039
http://onemangaforum...srosa/?p=904187
http://onemangaforum...ssion/?p=602508
http://onemangaforum...ories/?p=622620
http://onemangaforum...ssion/?p=598529
http://onemangaforum...ssion/?p=917915
http://onemangaforum...olism/?p=197137
 
I don't necessarily agree with everything in all of the posts above, but that doesn't matter. What's important is that all those posts are examples of what I'd consider 'good' analysis. They provide reasoning and that in turn is conductive to discussion. If you look at the replies it's often good discussion.
 
Honestly there are a lot more examples I could give, but I have terrible memory and finding anything on OMF is near-impossible. I do want to build a list of good posts, so if you guys remember any other ones feel free to post it here.

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Critical Analysis: How to DEW it

The most important part of critical analysis is context. While you can acknowledge that Daily Lives of Highschool Boys does not have a compelling plot, nitpicking about it is idiotic. It's always important to keep in mind genre, and for older works, the time period it was created in. Admittedly, I'm pretty weak when it comes to history in general, never mind Animanga history.

 

Outside of context there are two main ideas to focus on: what is the work trying to do and how well does it do it?

 

What is this work trying to do?

This is the ambition or theme of the work. What is the point of the show? Why do characters do what they do and how does this reflect on the work thematically? How ambitious is this theme? Is it a response to anything?

 

For example, Yuri Kuma Arashi has the overarching theme of homosexuals in society, Katanagatari has the weight of legacy, One Piece has freedom (and then each mini-arc has its own theme as well like Fishman Island and racism). All of these are pretty obvious to most people, but the point isn't that they are difficult to identify, but that they must be kept in mind when consuming media. Otherwise, you end up nitpicking.

 

Keep in mind thematic significance, and all of a sudden the actions of characters have more weight to them. This is particularly true when it comes to the success or failure of characters. It's a sort of meta-reason for in-universe actions and reactions. Obviously, the ideal work will be consistent both in-universe and thematically, but aren't those what we call masterpieces?

 

That said meta-reasons are not answers to problems. Saying X character had to lose for Y reasons does not make it realistic. It makes it understandable and easier to forgive; but not better. A 'competent' villain acting stupidly because of characters being underestimated is a theme doesn't make it any more realistic. It's just an explanation of why. I know certain people disagree here like @Relinquisher and @zetruz, so I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but so far I remain unconvinced.

 

How well is it executing it?

This is pretty self-explanatory and the most subjective part of this attempt to be objective. Not that a 'true' objective measure can be reached as said before; we're just trying our best to approach it. How well its goal is executed has a lot to do with your suspension of disbelief and the goal itself. The whole series from setting to characters culminates in a message -- no matter how shallow -- and can be criticized as being successful/unsuccessful.

 

Criticizing execution involves breaking down the parts of a work and trying to understand their purpose. Then you put it all back together and see how effective the pieces are at telling a message. This often includes all those things I called worthless before: the characters, the aesthetic, the plot. As an ultimately subjective experience, people will differ on how well they respond to different pieces. For example, I find younger fans see Attack on Titan as groundbreaking in the way that it illustrates mortality and how humanity is 'caged'. The older fans see the less-than-subtle presentation of the themes as distasteful. Not that there is anything wrong with being explicit.

 

In this age where so many different works are available to consume, I do think execution is more important than the theme itself. Every story has already been told; the genius comes from how. And this is where medium comes into play. Pay close attention to the stills and the framing and character design. It's an experience you really can't get from novels.
---

That's about all I have for now. Since I'm binging anime movies this weekend (if all goes as planned), I'll try and do an in-depth review that better shows how I analyze things. Might do Kara no Kyoukai but if its complex, I doubt I'll be done in one day.

 

A few questions to get the discussion started:

1. How do you go about analyzing animanga. Be as specific as you like.

2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this for?

3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?

4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?

5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?


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#2 Fulmine

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 01:11 AM

1. How do you go about analyzing animanga. Be as specific as you like.

2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this before?

3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?

4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?

5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?

1. Pretty much what you said.
2. Yeah, but only Ghibli films and some other movies. I rarely rewatch series cause time-consuming.
3. Don't care about message to be honest cause I can read a manga with whatever message, even one that heavily contradict my own beliefs or outright complete opposite, or something that is too nonsense IMO (like ''This manga is about how you should use public transportation as your own toilet, no deeper theme guaranteed''). Problem is how such manga actually convinces you to read it to just experience what ''the other sides'' has to say so execution is nearly everything for me. Only awesome regardless everything characters like Gin or Anotsu can be more than execution. Basically the type of characters that are amazing by themselves, you don't actually need a specific story or context to develop them like Luffy goes with ''freedom''. Gin can be a character in To-Love Ru or Yotsuba! and he would still be cool by creeping around Yotsuba's house or something...and I can read story following guys like that and it can do whatever the heck it wants to, even ''lightning does not burn rubber''.
4. Never change my interpretations. Cause I'm the sort of guy that follows ''it is not until it is'' philosophy. So unless it's obvious things that can be deduced by logic (and logic does not fail you, only you fail logic) I'm always open to everything so actually I don't really have a interpretation to begin with to be changed. Though even for the stuffs that can be deduced by logic, I would still not say it's set in stone cause such inconsistency may be intentional. So I may have an idea about whether the details themselves are consistent or not, but I won't think about whether they're bad or good for the series.
5. That depends on why the person watch/read animanga.


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#3 Tale

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:57 AM

2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this before?

 
I rarely post about a series if I haven't read it more than once or twice. I read too many things to be able to remember the details, and tend to end up saying inane and incorrect things. (So I recommend doing this, especially for series that are more convoluted.)
 

3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?

 
Execution usually ends up being the deciding factor for me. I've been able to enjoy all kinds of "messages" (from attempts to capture the feeling of a particular time or effect to something as broad as freedom), and I don't mind hackneyed themes (which is not to say they're a positive thing), as long as they are handled well (and this means generating initial interest). I'm not always able to pinpoint why I dislike the execution of something, but basically, whenever my inner editor 
 starts providing suggestions as I'm reading, my interest rapidly decreases. (It's not the first time I've been tempted to drop One Piece, for example, but I've probably been reading it for too long to do that).
 

4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?

 
That really depends on my familiarity with a series. The Kubera threads tends to have a lot of posts that influence me, since I've only read through it twice, and I'm not familiar with it as I would like to be. The One Piece subforum is the opposite of that, so I'm rarely given a reason to reinterpret something, though it does happen.
 

5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?

 
Necessary? No. Preferable? Yes. At least I find it more enjoyable.
I can't speak for all of OMF, since I haunt the OP subforum, but I do wish people put in more effort now and then in that place. Also, it's often difficult to find the motivation to be in-depth about things (about the writing, for instance), when the majority of the discussions you remember about that usually end up about whether saying anything more than "I don't like x writing" means you're big-headed.


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#4 Tokoya

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 12:04 PM

1. How do you go about analyzing animanga. Be as specific as you like.
2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this before?
3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?
4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?
5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?

Dang DEW, I wonder who or what sparked this rant of yours lol xD But to answer your questions:
 
1. I judge a series for what they try to be and how well they do it (As well as personal enjoyment).....I also try to take into account the audience they are appealing to and if the message is brought across well....Now when it comes to in depth analysis, I only really do it for Psychological series or other series that are hot topics (Example Code Geass,) because sometimes I see stupid arguments as to why it's "bad" when really the complaints people have just crawls my skin sometimes
 
2. I rarely ever re-watch an anime and if I do, it's just for nostalgic purposes or because I forgot some things that happened in it. But examples of this would be pretty much old school shows like DBZ, Yu Yu Hakusho and others like Code Geass and Monster etc
 
3. Depends on the genre imo....But in regards to series like Yuri Kuma just to make an example, this is VERY important because there are ignorant people in the world that take things for face value and what not and so conveying the underlying messages is key for me in that regards. Personally the message isn't really a big deal for me...All I need is for a series to entertain me
 
4. I'm not really influenced by other people's opinions on a series that much.....I mean, unless I know the person's tastes and outlook on things, then yeah I appreciate their input on things, but if I don't and particularly if it's just someone bashing a series, I just ignore it....But examples of this would be Yuri Kuma and The Last: Naruto the Movie most recently......All that symbolism in Yuri Kuma flew over my head before I looked around at the discussions everywhere....So yeah, If I don't understand something, other people's take on it helps me out a lot
 
5. Nah I don't think that it's a necessity because there are some series that just aren't meant to be looked at that critically. However, doing it would be interesting imo and I think that OMF can pull it off nicely since we have a lot of great thinkers here


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#5 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 01:36 PM

Putting the "why you´re wrong" paragraph aside, which i do not completely agree with, a good idea for a thread, so i fear it might become pointless in the end, nevertheless here it goes:

 

1.) narrative and its style and structure, plot lines, characters, dramaturgy, possible themes and messages intended by the author

 

2.) Only if i enjoyed watching it the first time, a true analysis starts after the first read anyway

 

3.) Depends on what kind of title it is but generally, i do enjoy it more if a piece of media tries to be more than "mere" entertainment and to bring something across, whatever it is

 

4.) Depends really, most people do not have the interest to analyze movies, books, anime or manga as deeply and seriously as i do sometimes (it´s a hobby of mine) but if someone shows the same interest and dedication as i do, i am always open to and interested in their interpretation

 

5.) Depends again, there are obviously titles that are ok being entertaining superficially to just turn off your mind and distract you from things but yeah, the titles that have the most impact and are the most memorable are usually also those that require an in-depth analysis, at least that´s the case for me. If you´d in turn analysis those superficially entertaining ones, they soon would lose their fun-factor (which is the case for blockbusters regarding movies for example).

 

Having said that, the average post and thread quality is obviously not nearly good enough but that´s not a problem unique to OMF, i would even say it is rather on the better side of manga communities.


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#6 ruggia

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 03:15 PM


A few questions to get the discussion started:
1. How do you go about analyzing animanga. Be as specific as you like.
2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this for?
3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?
4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?
5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?

 

1) Generally when I read/watch I try to just enjoy it as long as everything feels consistent to the logic that is being established in the series. I don't tend to go around over-analyzing things and going out of my ways to criticize everything as long as everything feels consistent/enjoyable for me. I like to think that I'm fairly lenient when series are stylistically over-the-top and outlandish (looking at you, Makoto Raiku)

 

2) When I reread series, it's usually because I want to live through the enjoyment again. In most cases, I'll end up picking up plot points and themes that I missed on my first run through which always adds to the enjoyment. There are also times when first part of the series felt pretty weak so I was skimming a bit, only to really enjoy the later parts and end up re-reading it to appreciate all the subtle setups and buildups the author did in the first part. 

 

3) A lot actually, especially when it comes to the series being memorable in the long run. I find it hard for something without any message to stand the test of time. At the same time, there are several series where I found the execution to be poor/underwhelming (in my eyes at least) but still respect it for the message it tried to deliver (off the top of my head: Gundam 00, Higashi no Eden, Tsubasa Resevoir Chronicals etc) I think as you read/watch more and more, you develop less tolerance for one-time gimmicks and more appreciation for overarching themes and unique ways of delivery. There are also instances where I found enjoyment in the art/presentation even if the plot/series itself was a bit lacking. (Nurarihyon no Mago and later bits of Soul Eater)

 

4) Not too much these days. Over the years I've generally grown to try ignore what other people think about the series I like when it comes to negativity. I feel like being too concerned about other people's criticism about a series leads to nothing positive about it. It just ruins your enjoyment. That said, I welcome times when my enjoyment gets boosted because my friend likes it too, and it's always great when people point out subtle themes and hints that I didn't notice in my first read through. (like Animus' reincarnation in Hoshi no Samidare)

 

5)

Will it be interesting to see them? Yes.

Are they necessary for keeping places like forums healthy? Yes.

Will I ever do it? Nope.

Why? Cuz i'm lazy, whimsical, and tend to go around making cheesy one-liner remarks ;) I used to post/read some analysis stuff when I was young, but I think I care less and less about them the older&lazier I get. And if you haven't guessed already, I'm not very good at describing things in a concrete manner and giving good solid examples :P

 

that said, I feel like Big3 forums have lot of over-analysis going on :whistle:


Edited by ruggia, 28 February 2015 - 03:23 PM.

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#7 Relinquisher

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 08:12 PM


1. How do you go about analyzing animanga. Be as specific as you like.
2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this for?
3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?
4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?
5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?

 

Thanks for posting all this out DEWchetebroman. Hopefully this can be the start of reminding people that this tight knit group we have established on this forum should be reflected in how we all post. There needs to be more respect and thought put into the things we do, theres a line between being funny, goofing around, spamming for fun, and then just trolling and bringing down the quality.

 

1. Depends on the series. I would agree that you have to look at what you are analyzing before you can even start. For example, certain themes and pieces of Bleach i could write pages about, and actually have in the past (they are buried somewhere on OMF, I've written a coupe pretty long theories). So things like; The theme of Rain in Bleach, the nature of Ichigos power, the balance between the worlds, the history of soul society, multiple theories about quncies (before this current ac) were all things I've talked a lot about and in some length. However while bleach tends to have things you can really put some thought into it also has various parts which come off as incredibly simple or illogical, which are self-evident to post. So you have to keep in mind what you are talking about. Also you have to remember who you are talking to, members like Mila and Epi are people who will write a page long response to one statement you make, so you need to be prepared and realize you have to respond in kind, otherwise its showing a lack of respect and is rude. Now for others in the bleach section, many like to joke around and casually talk about characters and plot, and so for them, to post a huge response to a simple thing is also rude, they dont want to read it, and its fair in certain instances. 

 

There are spots on the forum where you need to respect people more and need to put more thought and effort behind posts to be taken seriously (The battle sub-forum, Debate sub-forum, certain sections of ani/manga discussions). This quality I feel has been slightly lost over time. So while i try and respect the analyzation styles of whoever I'm talking with, its important to remember all the situations around it, and then go from there.

 

Your individual style is important, but it is more important to be able to adapt to the situations around you.

 

2. I generally do if i enjoy them and want to talk about them more. I've read one piece at least 5 times, bleach about 4, had read naruto about 4 until it got impossible to understand, read Tower of God 3 times, and various other manga twice or more than once in segmented bits. It's important that if you want to talk about a manga in detail, that you should be refreshing your memory about what is actually there. Each time I've re-read one of the big 3 I have understood something that i previously didn't and realized something I previously did not. Especially with series that last more than 150 chapters, re-reading is vital since that amount of content is going to fade away with time, especially since most of us read various manga and watch various anime.

 

3. Once again, the theme is depends on the series lol. Bleach falls short on a lot of its themes, but i enjoy the aspects that i enjoy more than i dislike those failed aspects. I focus on the things i like, instead of the things i dislike, which should be how everyone here should function. Naruto failed almost all its themes and points near the end, but i still read it to see how it would end, and it became entertaining in a different way since it became so bad.

 

More serious series that I dont enjoy because of the fighting like Vagabond, BotA, Vinland Saga, etc it becomes more important. That's because the author is focusing more on characters and themes and story. The big three are primarily fighting for teenagers, and so if that segment is good i still consider it good. But if lets say Blade of the Immortal started missing themes or any of the characters became dull it would be much more of a roadblock to me than if something similar happened in shonen series.

 

4. Yes. I believe its important to keep an open mind in all situations. Perhaps its because i spend less time on the forum and more time talking to people whose opinions i generally respect, but even so I've had my thoughts changed on the forum in the past. But a lot of the manga and anime i consume today is because of other people suggesting things for me. Aka the only reason im watching anime this season is because of DEW xD. But I've also had my thoughts changed on series in general. @Petite Fleur convinced me of how OP's power system works, we had debates about it and eventually she won me over, and now i agree with her. She has also convinced me of other various things. I actually could list a lot of people here, but its a waste of time, most that I've ever had serious debates with have changed my thought process at least a little bit.

 

I think any serious debate or friendship developed here changes me a little, sometimes its hard to exactly identify but I think its the same for most people.

 

5. 

Needed: No. The in-depth posts you are thinking of are not needed. A level of care and respect is though.

 

You can talk about whatever aspect you want as long as it is respectful and constructive. Too much of the forum is destructive. Certain people and certain areas of the forum thrive off that. You can try and bring up a constructive point about a character or idea and people will shoot you down for even trying, and not shoot you down in a nice way, they will insult you and be dis-respectful til you quit or they feel like ignoring you. That kind of behavior is unacceptable to me.

 

That being said the quality is no where near what it used to be, its plain to see that, many people who used to be benchmarks for quality have left, and the ones that remain have not held the same standard. 


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#8 Petite Fleur

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 08:36 PM


1. How do you go about analyzing animanga. Be as specific as you like.

2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this for?

3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?

4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?

5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?

 

1. Basically individual, but primarily first and foremost I try and ascertain what the author is trying to do and say. So, for example, if I identify that a series uses heavy number symbolism? I start paying attention to numbers.

 

2. If it's a series that can be reread and still be enjoyed. I don't do anything that I find to be a chore to myself barring an incredible amount of respect for whatever or whomever lead me to needing to reread it.

 

3. That depends. There can be things that make up for a terrible message, or a terrible execution or anything - and it's all of those tiny moments that make up the entire series itself. So I guess the importance becomes less and less the longer a series becomes, because it ends up more spread out.

 

4. Nothing comes immediately to mind because I'm sleepy and groggy and out of it, but I will say that whether someone can influence my opinion or not depends on whether or not we've seen the series or read it or whatever. If they don't, and they want to be critical of it, I usually just tune them out.

 

5. It's not necessary, no. Enjoyment is. Most people don't need in-depth insight, even if most people still enjoy it. OMF's degrading quality, in terms of posts, is because there are so many assholes around, being assholes, so it's really easy to find posts by assholes featuring them - being assholes. Then you have everyone that falls into the asshole trap and becomes one too because they're arguing with one.

 

And so we enter the jerk circle - like a circle jerk but nobody gets off, just angry.


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#9 Insane Soul

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 12:46 AM

A few questions to get the discussion started:
1. How do you go about analyzing animanga. Be as specific as you like.
2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this for?
3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?
4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?
5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?

 
1- First I analyze the type of source I am reading, Harem, Mystery, Fighting or comedy. If It has multiple elements I consider which is the prominent, or rather, the foundation of it. For example, if it is a Fighting manga with Harem elements, or the opposite, a Harem with FIghting elements, that does not mean they are the same, as their flow would be different, which defines my overal enjoyement of the series.
But I usually focus on 2 things, The Plot and the roles of each character in that specific world. The path the author takes to define his/her story, and how he/she handles the characters. Symbolism is another aspect I tend to enjoy, I even re read sources with the sole purpose of it.
 
2- Depends of the series, Usually those that are very complex and the messages sent tend to have a double meaning. Of course I have, pretty sure the whole forum knows by now I am a DanganAddict. I have watched the games so many times because I enjoy discovering new clues that may lead to future speculations on the Series.
 
3- It is what defines the series for me, otherwise I would consider them empty. 
 
4- I used to care what people told me before I began a series, whether they were bad or good. But lately I have come to understand people tend to misjudge sources by ridiculous nitpicks, ruining their overall potential to me.
 
5- Definitely, sometimes the same analisis raise awareness and interests for the series themselves.


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#10 Nyanko

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 03:55 PM

This is on my phone, ill come back later and edit it... To be more concise and correct the grammar.

1. So how do I analyze Manga or Anime? First I will only really analyze manga Tha I like. Indeed the only series I am willing to analyze deeply is Kubera. But noone wants to play with me :cry: I could talk about Kubera for hours. But that's the thing, I will only ever join an argument or a discussion for a topic I am personally interested in. Like "Is Monet really dead" (She's not). To me, its more about the characters than the themes, if I like the characters, I will most likely like the series. Though there are themes that will turn me off any manga, like Nerotare.

2. Do I reread? Only series I really like. I have reread Skip Beat like eight times, UQ Holder 3 times. Why do I reread them? To see things I missed, to pick up clues and foreshadowing, to understand the world better.

3. The message and execution to me mean little about the enjoyment of a series. It is the characterization and environment that make me enjoy a series. That's all I really have to say about that, might edit more in later.

4. Other peoples posts won't influence my views, but that's not to say I don't try and influence other people. Though I know opinions are not changed easily and nor do I try to argue with them to Chang their view. To me, the long segmented quoted post feels.confrontational, and ultimately having a negative feel. You're not going to convince anyone with negativity, you have to be conciliatory and understand their position to convince it. Long poets I feel are less effective than short posts for convincing and influencing a poster. Firstly the reader looses interest sooner as the point of the post is obfuscated by text, and those who are ultimately just scanning the thread won't read it fully and get involved in the argument. Shorter, more concise messages are easier to process and influence other people than walls of text. Also, and I speak in regards to many threads in the One Piece section, enough with the circular argument, you're not going to convince each other, so leave it be. Part of promoting a message is knowing when you wont get through and knowing when to give up.
Wait I went a bit off track there. Anyway, the only time someone can influence my view on a Manga is if I haven't read it. And that persuasion will get me to read it. I don't let their views influence me on if I enjoy the manga or not, but if it came with someone's recommendation, then its worth my time to at least give it a go.

5. Well I kinda touched on this above, deep analysis of a series is good, but leave the negativity at home, people. I will happily read a long analysis, but a long (and segmented) persuasive post is something I wont read. So analysis long, persuasive short. Makes sense?

Edit - Gez, I spell badly on my phone


Edited by Nyanko, 02 March 2015 - 04:01 AM.

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#11 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:16 PM

A few questions to get the discussion started:
1. How do you go about analyzing animanga. Be as specific as you like.
2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this for?
3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?
4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?
5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?

 
1. Generally, I'll apply three criteria: 

  • The intent and modi operandi of the author; "What is this person attempting to do, and with what kind of style?"
  • The genre/demographic; "This is occasionally seinen-like for a shounen, but would be too shounen-y for seinen." 
  • The "come away with" mentality; "What does this series make me think of...?"

2. Yes, albeit not habitually. That said, if something is forgettable to the extent that I'd have to be reminded of it specifically just to trigger a memorable moment from that work, I probably won't go back and watch it a second time. An example of a re-watched series would be Cowboy Bebop: I thought it was greatly overrated the first time I watched it, which was the subtitled version. I then watched the English dub eventually, and began thinking of the series as a product made by and for a Western audience, that "just happened" to resemble an anime.

 

3. The execution is more essential for me than the message itself, though the two would depend on certain variables: the length of the series, foreshadowing (or lack thereof), whether or not the author retconned past events, a clear direction for the story to take (assuming it's ongoing), etc. I personally don't think that one has to enjoy or even like the message being conveyed by the author, but if it's executed well enough, it'll undoubtedly cause the reader/viewer to think, which is a positive. It would also be more likely to generate a sense of appreciation, regardless of one's attitude towards the underlying narrative itself: a positive message ("positive" in the context of one with which someone agrees) can be dragged down by clunky writing and drained of untapped potential; whereas a negative message ("negative" in the context of one with which someone disagrees) written greatly can elicit a reaction of deep respect from the reader/viewer.

 

4. Normally, they don't. That would be the rule. I suppose an example of an exception would be Mila's weekly reviews.

 

5. It's not necessary for one's entertainment value, but it certainly helps. It all depends on how one goes into a series. Does one read/watch for the story? The action? The "badass" moments? The mythology? The humor? The character interactions? A combination of the aforementioned? If one is satisfied with a "surface level" understanding, it can be enough. However, I think enjoying a piece of work and appreciating that work for what it is are two completely distinct concepts; one doesn't need to comprehend every iota of thematic notability when consuming a work of, say, Stanley Kubrick's, but I do think a stronger grasp of the work is crucial to heighten one's appreciation.


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#12 Fulmine

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 11:06 PM

Though sometimes appreciation means very little compared to enjoyment in my case. It's the classic formula: Good intention + Stupidity = Destructive action.

The reply for that is ''thanks for your trying to help but I'd rather you stay the hell out of this matter. You only make it worse, garbage'' :glare:. So I would rather find a work that I both appreciate and enjoy whilst something that is totally about enjoyment without a bit of ''deep stuffs'' can still eclipse stuffs which are both enjoying and deep. That said, most of the times the stuffs we enjoy would end up having deep things about it anw, as far as my experience goes.


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#13 azer_moli

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 08:51 AM


1. How do you go about analyzing animanga. Be as specific as you like.
2. Do you watch series again to better understand them? Are there specific series you've done this for?
3. How important is the message and execution to your enjoyment of a series?
4. How do other people's posts influence your interpretation of a series? Examples?
5. Do you think in-depth analysis is necessary? Is experience animanga at a surface level 'good enough'? Is the quality of OMF good enough?

 

1. I'm not fond of analyzing many series, I'd rather focus on a few ones in which I'm really interested in talking about, and with only a couple of people at a time. 

Which means that I don't like making a huge analysis of something and then share it. I'd rather go to the point while discussing it with other people. I don't need a forum to analyze something, I can take a sheet of paper and a pen and make an essay just for myself; discussion to reach a conclusion with other people is more appealing to me. 

 

2. Not very often… I've re-read only a couple of series and never re-watched a whole series, only a couple of episodes. 

 

3. I don't mind the message much, especially if it's a cliché one. However, the way the message is passed is pretty interesting, it can give you different perspectives on things you think you know perfectly well. I'm very fond of different points of view on a same thing, of an original way to talk about something well-known, so the way it's done matters more to me than the subject itself. 

And of course, the more subjects the manga covers, the better it is. So a manga should never focus on one specific message for me to enjoy it to the best. 

 

4. When other people point out things I missed, of course it can change my interpretation or precise it. 

An interpretation is only an hypothesis, it can't be set in stone, and the more you see about the story and its details, the more you can change your interpretation of it to make it better and better. 

That's what discussion is for. 

 

5. No, it's not necessary.

For some series, in-depth discussion would be a waste of time because there's not much to say. That's where you get over-analysis and you can even lose the main point of the chapter that way… 

However, for a few series very well-written, it would be a waste not to analyze them in depth. There are so many things to say, so many things to see, so many things to wonder about that you would lose a big part of enjoyment with a surface level experience. 

If you allow me the comparison, it's pretty useless to give criticism about a Dan Brown or Marc Lévy novel compared to a Nabokov or Flaubert one. One is aiming for pure enjoyment and can be read in no time without a second thought, while you'd miss 90% of the novel for the second one if you don't give it a second thought. The same can be applied to manga and anime. 


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#14 Fulmine

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 10:10 AM

Yeah, Lolita by Nabokov is like the most headache read I have ever had. It's filled with references in fields I don't know, with Nabokov's synesthesia and the narrative style is pretty hard to swallow for my liking and tons of other things. I had to buy an annotated version physical copy (which is twice the price) just to fully understand it before we even talk about other hidden stuffs after my first e-book read. Long time in front of laptop is already tired for the eyes and Lolita is like the perfect added ingredient for brain malfunction.

 

That said, I haven't encountered a manga on that level yet, luckily. Bleach might have been if somehow Kubo had Urasawa and currygom giving him advices on writing complex plot, haha.


Edited by Fulmine, 08 March 2015 - 10:11 AM.

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#15 azer_moli

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 10:19 AM

Yeah, Lolita by Nabokov is like the most headache read I have ever had. It's filled with references in fields I don't know, with Nabokov's synesthesia and the narrative style is pretty hard to swallow for my liking and tons of other things. I had to buy an annotated version physical copy (which is twice the price) just to fully understand it before we even talk about other hidden stuffs after my first e-book read. Long time in front of laptop is already tired for the eyes and Lolita is like the perfect added ingredient for brain malfunction.

 

That said, I haven't encountered a manga on that level yet, luckily. Bleach might have been if somehow Kubo had Urasawa and currygom giving him advices on writing complex plot, haha.

 

Lolita is a masterpiece though and not many novels can be put on the same level as it 35cpdlj.gif

Manga can't be as complex anyway, they'd lose their readers completely. But you can still have manga worthier of discussions than other : 2


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#16 Fulmine

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 10:27 AM


Manga can't be as complex anyway, they'd lose their readers completely

Nah, great things are bound/meant to be appreciated by only a few talented individuals :hmph:. Sales is not a problem. Dorohedoro sells like only 40k per copy (I still haven't figured it out how Hayashida Q lives with that). Of course, being masterpiece and selling well at the same time would be ideal. Vagabond/Century Boys for example.


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#17 azer_moli

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 10:47 AM

Nah, great things are bound/meant to be appreciated by only a few talented individuals :hmph:. Sales is not a problem. Dorohedoro sells like only 40k per copy (I still haven't figured it out how Hayashida Q lives with that). Of course, being masterpiece and selling well at the same time would be ideal. Vagabond/Century Boys for example.

 

That's true. 

But I wasn't talking of sales, I was talking of the episodic and regular format of manga. 

Now, of course, the very talented mangaka can make something very complex, but there certainly isn't many.


Edited by azer_moli, 08 March 2015 - 10:47 AM.

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#18 ArSoNiSt JoE

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 10:50 AM

So this is the clubhouse... ohhh.png

 

 

 

**JoE randomly walks around, checking out everything** 

 

 

The decor is okay, could use a little more blue, and some animanga posters... and some feng shui,  but overall not bad, not bad at all ehh.png

 

 

As for the topic at hand...

 

 

Me personally, I don't really have a rubrick for analysing manga per se. JoE just sticks to the basics: 

 

 

1) Is the story interesting to begin with? For example a story about a samurai's journey to becoming the strongest while understanding the way of the sword is appealing to me (JoE is into samurais)  A harem manga about some shy chump having to deal with 5 girls, each of which, has a personality which is some kind of 'dere, on the other hand can get out of The JoE's sight camby.png

 

 

2) Do I like any of the characters? Are the characters more than just the typical cliche antagonist or good guy? Do they have a bit of depth to them? Are they at least enjoyable?

 

 

3) How good is the storytelling? What do I like about the way the story is told? Any interesting twists and turns? Does the story seem to flow naturally or does the author have a habit of starting off hot, but ends things horribly? (I'm looking at you Kishimoto 5I5s8.png)

 

 

 

That's pretty much it....well maybe if I like the story a lot I might do bit of research. Like for instance with Naruto I was pretty fascinated with a lot of the Japanese myth that Kishimoto put into the story. Like the tailed beasts, or Susanoo. but other than that ehh not really.

 

And I'm def not gonna write a big post about that stuff either mjlol.png

 

Not knocking anyone that does that sorta thing, don't get The JoE wrong...but to me the real fun comes from the day-to-day discussing or even arguing with other folks over the manga, not so much presenting my findings from research.

 

JoE prefers the thrill of battle mynicca1.png

 

 


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#19 Fulmine

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 10:57 AM


some feng shui

:laugh:

Let me see, just look in the direction of Canada from your position. That's all.

 

 


A harem manga about some shy chump having to deal with 5 girls, each of which, has a personality which is some kind of 'dere, on the other hand can get out of The JoE's sight camby.png

Because that's totally for real life, right? :isee: We read manga to escape reality after all Yohohoho


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#20 ArSoNiSt JoE

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 11:07 AM

Because that's totally for real life, right? :isee: We read manga to escape reality after all Yohohoho

 

Oh I get that, I'm just saying those kind of stories don't appeal to me that's all sass1.png


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