Sure, age always plays a role, but all the pages i linked are focused on his lost limb and not the effects of aging.
That doesn't show his decrease in fighting prowess is due to losing a real leg though. More like it shows his decrease in fighting prowess after losing a wood leg (compared to when he still had it)
Extraordinary perception/observation is what CoO is at the end of the day. Fujitora doesn't only hear thunder but also claims that he can tell the ways of the clouds while being blind, so how else would he be able to perceive that ?
To my knowledge Fujitora is the first blind warrior in One Piece, so i don't see how pointing out different fiction or even real life matters if he's the first that proves himself able to efficiently engage in combat without at all relying on his sight. It is extraordinary within the verse, so it's worth pointing out and being taken into account. And it's not like he's doing some basic fighting, he's up against exceptional combatants even by NW standards.
Hearing? And that is a vague statement because it can mean he can describe what's currently going on as if he can see it, not predicting what will happen after what's currently going on if that makes sense. Plus, there is the fact that CoO reads ''intention'' hence why Luffy's doing random attacks that not even he knows what's going to hit where can damage Enel. Now...whether clouds or thunder or dices on roulette table can have intention...
Well, like the way we thinks human in One Piece have 1 heart, lungs, kidney etc, like us unless told otherwise? Maybe you don't...I guess my point is trashed in that case...The fiction one is just to show that extremely good hearing can do that.
And let say even if CoO has such ability, it's still not clear whether that is identical to what Enel, Rayleigh, Luffy do for it to be a factor in fight. It doesn't have to be like them to be a factor, but we haven't seen Fuji making use of it in a fight. I thought with how the DD vs Jinbe went, people should understand how on-screen feats (and in a fight depends on circumstances) are important for debate like this.
The extent to which Punk Hazard was altered is proof of the fact that their powers were used for that long while matching each other. How reasonable is to think that two individuals perfectly match each other for 10 straight days through their DF powers, and then suddenly with fatigue playing no role in that one overwhelms his opponent ?
What are you saying?
I can't see a word pertaining to the part you quoted me...
but again considering the Jinbe/Ace example the match-up seems to be a factor, and we are unlikely to see such extended fights otherwise considering there's no other example that differentiates from the unique aspect of contrasting powers displayed in these two.
So only ''seems''? And where does this ''seems'' come from? Logic or just ''I feel it''? What I see so far is you pick 2 similarities between the two fights and use them to question Aokiji's fighting prowess but that's why I said in my last post: aside from observing such similarities, what basis do you have to link them together and link both to Aokiji's being more weaker than we think and that his fruit helps him (instead of Akainu being weaker than we think and that his fruit helps him) and even more, why should we take that idea seriously? Unless you can provide these, your argument forever stops at ''guys, I spot these similarities. I think they have a role but I can't prove how''. Oh, or is that what you're doing? Well, then it's pretty easy, I can only answer ''speculation remains speculation''.
By that logic I can do the same: Sanji vs Jyabura and Zolo vs Kaku:
1st similarity: There's at least one Rokushiki user in each fight.
2nd similarity: neither fight is longer than 5 chapters.
=> I say if a non-Rokushiki user fight a Rokushiki user, such a fight may be under 5 chapters...
and then how do I show it's feasible instead of ''manga fights like that are simply generally that long (unless there's swinging of scenes) and there are two Rokushiki users cause...it's Ennies Lobby arc where CP-9, a bunch of Rokushiki users are the antagonists''?
Inb4 ''But this is different. Rokushiki and swordsmanship and Leg fighting are not ''opposite'' elements''. So? Precisely because they are not that the length is short, don't you think?
Ha ha, back to main point, it's not hard to see a scenario where 2 ''opposite'' elements would not even play a role. Say Hakuba has freezing fruit and Barty has magma fruit. Hakuba blitzs Barty with a CoA freezing slash (like Brook's tech) before Barty can react. Barty is down. Not even 10 seconds, much less 10 days...
''But Fulmine, Aokiji is closer in fighting to Akainu than Barty to Hakuba's speed''...well, so we agree? Of course Aokiji is super close to Akainu. Never think otherwise. So then again, how are you going to show me and the judges that your idea of having Freezing power helps Aokiji against Akainu more than we think and somehow that would not apply to Akainu is a worthy one?
Are we to forever consider Akainu/Aokiji as stamina monsters that would dwarf EoS Luffy and Blackbeard for example if the fight between them lasts hours instead of days ?
No. I don't know who you are asking but I didn't say anything like that, just in case. I even pointed out 10 days are simply the time it took for Akainu to beat Aokiji. It does not establish a limit and if it does, it's more than simply double the time Ace and Jinbe took because the output is astronomically higher. Similarly, Luffy vs BB may end in 2 hours and that is because one can beat the other in that much time and for all we know, in that 2 hours they may change the conditions of the whole Earth. So no, that's never my point.
The point here is very simple. This is feat-based debate. Aokiji shows he can fight for 10 days and be a match to Akainu. Fujitora hasn't. That's all. Your point of elemental interaction needs more back-up as I have explained above.
If some swordsman on Wano shows up and cuts the Red line in half or beats the snot out of Kizaru by blitzing him and CoA-overpowering him, he would win against Mihawk in debate like this, hype like WSS title does not matter.
Akainu has superior portrayal overall though and did come out on top as the winner. Outside of their fight Aokiji's greatest victory was against WB's second or third strongest subordinate, while being unable to cause any real damage to Whitebeard and being stopped from accomplishing his goals without retaliation from his part by Marco. Meanwhile Akainu managed to cause damage to Whitebeard not once but twice, serious injuries especially the second one, and was only temporarily stopped by both Marco and Vista before Whitebeard stepped in. With that in mind he deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt more so than his former fellow Admiral. Based on what we know, at the end of the day Aokiji suffered serious injuries and was at Akainu's mercy, while Akainu was in better shape, with no permanent injuries such as a lost limb.
So? He fought Akainu for 10 days. That's a fact. That is in and of itself the most solid evidence. His not causing WB's damage is clearly because...he didn't really fight WB for more than 5 seconds? He fought Jozu? Hence why he wasn't at the right place to take advantage of WB's heart-attack? If your basis for thinking a guy is lesser because he didn't do X then I can say Akainu is worse than Aokiji because he suffered 2 quakepunches from WB when Aokiji didn't. Maybe you will tell me ''but Fulmine, Aokiji didn't fight WB, how could he get injuries?''...
Inb4 ''but you say it Fulmine, this is feat-based debate. Aokiji didn't do it. He didn't manage to hurt WB as much as Akainu''. That's right, but you should know that every rule or law needs to be applied flexibly. More accurately, in this case, it is not to take the rule too literally (which means if a character has another equally awesome feat, he can be excused of not doing X''. If Aokiji never fought Akainu for 10 days, you can use that very line from me to retaliate. But Aokiji did fight Akainu for 10 days...that's the distinction.
Marco and Vista? Yeah, but did Marco actually hurt Aokiji? Nope...Jozu did, and that's when Aokiji was occupied by WB.
Your attempt at using the positions of the Commanders still needs better basis. Keep repeating it does not make it right.
Yeah, no one disagrees about the fact Akainu won. So what's the point? O___O are you trying to say Akainu had to lose something and lying on the ground for them to be near equal? I don't think that's how fights are interpreted, the same way people don't just take a 2-hour fight's fighters to be less durable than 10-day fight's fighters. You can be extremely close in fighting strength and in that last moment after days of fighting, you finally find an opening and make the best out of it and kill your opponent. That does not make your opponent weaker than you by a longer shot than he/she actually is.
It's like football. 2 teams don't have to draw in every stats (number of shots or number of successful passes etc), till extra time finishes and have like 12345 penalty shots taken to be deemed near perfectly equal. The match can end right in 90 minutes and 2 sides can thought of as near perfectly equal, with the only difference in that last free-kick from Ronaldo.
Also in regards to your Ace vs Sabo comparison, you're using outdated data. Child Ace was almost Sabo's perfect equal, so he would have probably have been just slightly stronger if he was currently alive as well, it's a reasonable assumption. But to compare MF ace with current Sabo, considering Sabo has another two years of growth under his belt no longer holds any weight. It actually helps Sabo's case in being quite a bit stronger than that, if not significantly so. He had every reason in the world to get stronger after his brothers death and considering his current determination to protect Luffy, and he was at an age where he had a lot of room to grow, and still has since he's really young. Whitebeard believed Ace has what it takes to become PK and Sabo was nearly his equal when they were kids, so according to your own reasoning do give credit to a 20 years old individual with nearly PK level potential to get a lot stronger in two years.
This is what I'm trying to fish out from you.
I recall you saying Marco is still stronger than or equal to Sabo (in another thread, of course), no? And Marco has like zero feat that would place him above Ace...
Not to mention I was just following your portrayal logic. There's still your work which is showing how such logic actually holds any water in this debate that needs to be done cause as far as I can see, how Yonkou Commander-level is related to Revo's 2nd in Command is still a myth.
And in any case, so Fujitora's best feat is taking care of Sabo. Aokiji's is 10 days against Akainu. Aokiji>Fujitora by feats. I didn't say it but you just use weak reasoning to downgrade the Akainu's match then use Jozu's position to hype Sabo an din turn hype Fujitora...how convenient!
Now for the specifics of Fujitora vs Aokiji. Aokiji always manifested himself and his DF power in form of ice. His body was always solid, it cracked, got crushed to pieces, kicked around etc. So he would need to overcome the gravitational force and not bypass it. When Fujitora used the technique against Sabo, we could see Sabo struggling to hold his ground and getting pushed back, while when he turned to fire he basically immediately darted through the technique without looking like he's being pressured. Are you certain there's no connection with the fact that he no longer had a solid body when he did that, given the disparity in terms of how difficult it was to deal with the technique after he turned into fire?
I have already given an explanation how fire would be affected if left alone.
Plus, are you sure the only difference is Sabo turning into fire? Or the difference is before Sabo was only...you know, standing while after, Sabo using fire to launch himself, in other words, he simply use ''force vs force''?
To what extent can Aokiji deal with a rain of meteors while Fujitora levitates above the battleground ?
What rain? For all we know he can only summon at best a few meteors...
That happened even after the Birdcage sliced a few.
Birdcage can freeze?
Aokiji's fruit does have that one shot potential, but he actually never pulled it off in a 1 vs 1 against a top tier. Jozu could deal with it until he was distracted, and even then Aokiji had to settle with an arm first and then press his advantage. How lethal will that be in a 1 vs 1 against a fellow Admiral ?
Where did Fujitora pulled anything better against top-tier? Again, you Aokiji fought Akainu. Until you show me how I should brush that aside and start counting Aokiji's feat only from Jozu downwards the tier list, I will use that and FYI, Fujitora has zero feat against anyone of same caliber.
So if both hasn't done something, we go for the one with higher potential. Aokiji's freezing can deal with Fujitora's meteors no problem and it has shown to be deadly if landed.
I think I have said this: admirals fights are hard, indeed. But when it comes down to it, we can only use feats and Aokiji has better.