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[Miscellaneous] Rants on the Decline of Naruto (Part 2)


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#21 Darthwin

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 02:46 PM

Kishi shat on that aesop long ago.


I thought the Aesop was everyone is a genius at something or that the path to success requires more then just good genes.


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#22 Blue22

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 08:01 PM

I know it probably wasn't the point but I feel like this video perfectly describes just how unhealthy Team 7's relationship was:

 



#23 Sasuke K

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 06:45 AM

The hate comes from fan service and Kishi's depiction of most of the characters being brought back from the dead or something that was meant to stay dead ruined the entire franchise. So its not just the shipping-tards, people that were obsessed with many characters like you guys are just talking about Obito. When I first started reading the translated illegal scans back in 2007, Obito was the very first character to fell victim to fan service. People were so obsessed with wanting Tobi to be Obito. And guess what. Wish granted people. So its most likely Kishi being an incompetent  writer that he is without Yahagi's support could not come up with a subplot  to keep Tobi as Madara when it was just too simple.

 

A bed ridden elderly Madara, ready to pass on into the afterlife could easily transfer himself into Obito's body (because he was dying of old age) and possessed  it similar to what Orochimaru does to other ninjas to prolong his body. I guessed it was to hard for him to write it and illustrate  it. And when an author gives into fan service for whatever reason (either to support or oppose the fans), he retcon his story. We do not know what grudge Obito has against the Uchiha other than it being part of Konoha and only saw it through Madara's POV through Obito, imposing himself as Madara. And know rather if you are a shipper or just a general Naruto follower. Everybody hates him for what he had become. Me on the other hand treated his character as a tragedy that has been butchered along with Sakura and most of casts and I expect Shisui (if to be resurrected as Shin's father) to be ruined (even though no fanservice is involve) because of another shitty retcon.


Edited by Sasuke K, 18 May 2015 - 06:46 AM.

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#24 waleuska

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 09:01 AM

The hate comes from fan service and Kishi's depiction of most of the characters being brought back from the dead or something that was meant to stay dead ruined the entire franchise. So its not just the shipping-tards, people that were obsessed with many characters like you guys are just talking about Obito. When I first started reading the translated illegal scans back in 2007, Obito was the very first character to fell victim to fan service. People were so obsessed with wanting Tobi to be Obito. And guess what. Wish granted people. So its most likely Kishi being an incompetent  writer that he is without Yahagi's support could not come up with a subplot  to keep Tobi as Madara when it was just too simple.

 

A bed ridden elderly Madara, ready to pass on into the afterlife could easily transfer himself into Obito's body (because he was dying of old age) and possessed  it similar to what Orochimaru does to other ninjas to prolong his body. I guessed it was to hard for him to write it and illustrate  it. And when an author gives into fan service for whatever reason (either to support or oppose the fans), he retcon his story. We do not know what grudge Obito has against the Uchiha other than it being part of Konoha and only saw it through Madara's POV through Obito, imposing himself as Madara. And know rather if you are a shipper or just a general Naruto follower. Everybody hates him for what he had become. Me on the other hand treated his character as a tragedy that has been butchered along with Sakura and most of casts and I expect Shisui (if to be resurrected as Shin's father) to be ruined (even though no fanservice is involve) because of another shitty retcon.

Wait what no one wanted obito to be toby. Most of those Obito=tobi people thought obito was tobi because of the name and the one eye thing. Even then none of them want obito to be tobi. Obito being tobi was a face plam moment for everyone.


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#25 Graeystone

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 10:59 AM

Sasuke_K - The other problem is that Kishi may not realize as someone who has full creator control over Naruto he has the right to say "No" to anyone including the fans and the editors.

Some examples-

Kentoro(sp?) the artist of To Love Ru Series told complaining parents(who weren't bothering to keep an eye on their kids and what they read) AND censor board of Japan if they didn't stop complaining about his SIENEN work(To Love Ru: Darkness), he'd turn the series into a full blown Hentai series. Everyone backed off and TLR: Darkness remains a Sienen.

Another example is Battle Angel/GUMM: Last Order - The mangaka of that series switched publishers when he was outright told he couldn't use certain adjectives like 'psycho'.

Then there are the mangakas who take stupidly long hiatuses that may or may not be for legitimate reason yet don't seem to suffer any kind of consequences.

 

If a mangaka say or do certain things, right or wrong, then they should have the power to stand up to crazed fan girls and editors.


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#26 Narubi

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 12:42 PM


A bed ridden elderly Madara, ready to pass on into the afterlife could easily transfer himself into Obito's body (because he was dying of old age) and possessed  it similar to what Orochimaru does to other ninjas to prolong his body.

 

Why would Madara, need to even do such a thing (if he could at all)?

 

When he clearly had alternatives, that'd not only prolong his life, but also rejuvenate his body to peak condition. Such as through the usage of the Rinnegan's own Preta Path. As seen with Edo-Nagato, draining an amount of Hachibi chakra's from Killer B, and thus rejuvenating his own body back to a point where it wasn't damaged.

 

Granted though, he didn't have the Rinnegan, when he met Obito. But before that time, he did and could have put it to use, either by draining various people of their life forces like a Vampire, or just get his hands on a Bijuu/Jinchuuriki (which didn't seem that complicated, considering how he (while in a old and near death state) was able to do whatever with the Sanbi). 

 

Which of course made the point of Nagato, rather meaningless. Same as Obito, considering how Madara could obviously manipulate events, even in that old an frail state (by means yet known, or reasonable).

 

An whose to say that being connected to the Gedo Mazou, as he was, and then having the Bijuu's sealed within it, wouldn't have had any sort of affect as well?

 

In any case. Kishi fumbled rather noticeably with Madara, and his involvement with things, as well capabilities.



#27 Sasuke K

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 04:20 PM

Spoiler Compliments From JP Kakashi Fanbase



Wait what no one wanted obito to be toby. Most of those Obito=tobi people thought obito was tobi because of the name and the one eye thing. Even then none of them want obito to be tobi. Obito being tobi was a face plam moment for everyone.

I remember correctly that they wanted Tobi as Obito because Tobi was a goofball and it reminds them of Naruto. Of course that was way before I was a member here back in the old OMF where OM still had license to scan manga.

Sasuke_K - The other problem is that Kishi may not realize as someone who has full creator control over Naruto he has the right to say "No" to anyone including the fans and the editors.
Some examples-
Kentoro(sp?) the artist of To Love Ru Series told complaining parents(who weren't bothering to keep an eye on their kids and what they read) AND censor board of Japan if they didn't stop complaining about his SIENEN work(To Love Ru: Darkness), he'd turn the series into a full blown Hentai series. Everyone backed off and TLR: Darkness remains a Sienen.
Another example is Battle Angel/GUMM: Last Order - The mangaka of that series switched publishers when he was outright told he couldn't use certain adjectives like 'psycho'.
Then there are the mangakas who take stupidly long hiatuses that may or may not be for legitimate reason yet don't seem to suffer any kind of consequences.

If a mangaka say or do certain things, right or wrong, then they should have the power to stand up to crazed fan girls and editors.



It's possible. But, Kishi is one of those pushover mangakas that the editors and his own staff can easily walk all over him and make him listen to them. In fact, Naruto would not have been a shinobi shounen manga if not for his first editor Yahagi. And it was Yahagi that told Kishi that he should have never listen to his editors. If he had listen to Yahagi, non of this wouldn't happen. NH and SS would not have become canon. And the ending could have been an open ending, which was so post to happen 7 years ago or him going with NS because he admitted he considered going with that pairing after TL interview.

As for fanservice, there are many that he's yet to admit but the most recent has to do with NH and Sakura's anti fandom. He switched the heroine position from Sakura to Hinata because Hinatas character is more popular (in the west) and the hate that Sakura was getting that even Kishi said a "little girl" told him how much she hated Sakura and he told the interviewer Kobayashi that he came to regret her character (perhaps create her) and is the reason why you are seeing her character being trashed in the first two chapters of the gaiden.

Why would Madara, need to even do such a thing (if he could at all)?

When he clearly had alternatives, that'd not only prolong his life, but also rejuvenate his body to peak condition. Such as through the usage of the Rinnegan's own Preta Path. As seen with Edo-Nagato, draining an amount of Hachibi chakra's from Killer B, and thus rejuvenating his own body back to a point where it wasn't damaged.

Granted though, he didn't have the Rinnegan, when he met Obito. But before that time, he did and could have put it to use, either by draining various people of their life forces like a Vampire, or just get his hands on a Bijuu/Jinchuuriki (which didn't seem that complicated, considering how he (while in a old and near death state) was able to do whatever with the Sanbi).

Which of course made the point of Nagato, rather meaningless. Same as Obito, considering how Madara could obviously manipulate events, even in that old an frail state (by means yet known, or reasonable).

An whose to say that being connected to the Gedo Mazou, as he was, and then having the Bijuu's sealed within it, wouldn't have had any sort of affect as well?

In any case. Kishi fumbled rather noticeably with Madara, and his involvement with things, as well capabilities.

I forgot the name of the Jutsu which Nagato used to ressurect the villagers and Kakashi. Obito as Madara ranted off to Zetsu or Kisamr how much the jutsu was wasted on the village and it should have been used to ressurect him, which I thought his original body in its prime state (eventually Kabuto done it for Madara). It never made sense for Nagato to have Madara's Rinnegan to revive Madars while Madara as Obito could have done it himself. It made sense when Obito was actually the masked Madara and why he was impersonating as Madara.

Edited by Sasuke K, 18 May 2015 - 04:22 PM.

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#28 retroluffy13

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 04:53 PM

Spoiler Compliments From JP Kakashi Fanbase



I remember correctly that they wanted Tobi as Obito because Tobi was a goofball and it reminds them of Naruto. Of course that was way before I was a member here back in the old OMF where OM still had license to scan manga.



It's possible. But, Kishi is one of those pushover mangakas that the editors and his own staff can easily walk all over him and make him listen to them. In fact, Naruto would not have been a shinobi shounen manga if not for his first editor Yahagi. And it was Yahagi that told Kishi that he should have never listen to his editors. If he had listen to Yahagi, non of this wouldn't happen. NH and SS would not have become canon. And the ending could have been an open ending, which was so post to happen 7 years ago or him going with NS because he admitted he considered going with that pairing after TL interview.

As for fanservice, there are many that he's yet to admit but the most recent has to do with NH and Sakura's anti fandom. He switched the heroine position from Sakura to Hinata because Hinatas character is more popular (in the west) and the hate that Sakura was getting that even Kishi said a "little girl" told him how much she hated Sakura and he told the interviewer Kobayashi that he came to regret her character (perhaps create her) and is the reason why you are seeing her character being trashed in the first two chapters of the gaiden.
I forgot the name of the Jutsu which Nagato used to ressurect the villagers and Kakashi. Obito as Madara ranted off to Zetsu or Kisamr how much the jutsu was wasted on the village and it should have been used to ressurect him, which I thought his original body in its prime state (eventually Kabuto done it for Madara). It never made sense for Nagato to have Madara's Rinnegan to revive Madars while Madara as Obito could have done it himself. It made sense when Obito was actually the masked Madara and why he was impersonating as Madara.
how can you forget what might just be the easiest jutsu in all of Naruto to remember?

rinnnegan users gain the power of rinne tensi

Edited by retroluffy13, 18 May 2015 - 04:54 PM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

Spoiler


also some ear kandy
Spoiler

when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.

#29 Sasuke K

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 04:58 PM

how can you forget what might just be the easiest jutsu in all of Naruto to remember?rinnnegan users gain the power of rinne tensi

to be honest, I forget like nearly half the Justus that came out in PT2 especially the war arc.

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#30 Narubi

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 06:23 PM


I forgot the name of the Jutsu which Nagato used to ressurect the villagers and Kakashi.

 

Rinne Tensei

 

 

 


Obito as Madara ranted off to Zetsu or Kisame, how much the jutsu was wasted on the village and it should have been used to resurrect him. Which I thought was his original body in its prime state (eventually Kabuto done it for Madara).

 

It was to Zetsu, or Zetsu's. 

 

But okay, I see what your saying. Thinking that "Madara" was in another body at the time (like Orochimaru), until the day his body could be restored to glory, and he can repossess it an rule the world or whatever.


Edited by Yuber, 18 May 2015 - 06:29 PM.

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#31 Sasuke K

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 09:53 PM

10461345_771406676310880_302231469275001

Looks like someone is having a party :lmao:

Rinne Tensei





It was to Zetsu, or Zetsu's.

But okay, I see what your saying. Thinking that "Madara" was in another body at the time (like Orochimaru), until the day his body could be restored to glory, and he can repossess it an rule the world or whatever.

I still don't understand why Obito had to be trashed and by doing so at the end of his life, Kishi tries to undo what he done and make Obito a good guy as if nothing happened before. And not only that, he allowed his protogonist to call him the coolest guy. It just like WTF is wrong with this mangaka.

Edited by Sasuke K, 18 May 2015 - 09:58 PM.

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#32 Hellion

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 11:34 PM

I think some people lack basic human emotions on this board or don't understand the power of forgiveness nor do they understand Naruto's character. As if he didn't spend the whole manga trying to redeem and save Sasuke. The New generation may not have surpassed the old in power but they damn sure have surpassed them in morals and integrity. Compare The Sanin to Team 7 and look at the differences with how they turned out

#33 retroluffy13

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 12:28 AM

retro rips 4

Spoiler

Edited by retroluffy13, 22 May 2015 - 12:28 AM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

Spoiler


also some ear kandy
Spoiler

when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.

#34 Ace1225

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 06:28 AM

I think some people lack basic human emotions on this board or don't understand the power of forgiveness nor do they understand Naruto's character. As if he didn't spend the whole manga trying to redeem and save Sasuke. The New generation may not have surpassed the old in power but they damn sure have surpassed them in morals and integrity. Compare The Sanin to Team 7 and look at the differences with how they turned out

No they haven't. Jiraiya tried to save Orochimaru, just like Naruto did for Sasuke. Yet at the end of the day Orochimaru's crimes outweighed Sasuke by a fairly large margin. He kidnapped and experimented on his own people, abandoned his village and become a missing nin, kidnapped and experimented on even more people from other villages, and then attacked his home villages, caused the deaths of an untold number of people, and the 3rd Hokage. His teammates turning their backs on him makes perfect sense and has nothing to do with them not being good people, with solid morals and integrity. The Sannin turned out the way they did because Orochimaru was a terrible person, plain and simple. That had nothing to do with any type of failure on the parts of his teammates.


I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#35 Hellion

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 08:51 AM

No they haven't. Jiraiya tried to save Orochimaru, just like Naruto did for Sasuke. Yet at the end of the day Orochimaru's crimes outweighed Sasuke by a fairly large margin. He kidnapped and experimented on his own people, abandoned his village and become a missing nin, kidnapped and experimented on even more people from other villages, and then attacked his home villages, caused the deaths of an untold number of people, and the 3rd Hokage. His teammates turning their backs on him makes perfect sense and has nothing to do with them not being good people, with solid morals and integrity. The Sannin turned out the way they did because Orochimaru was a terrible person, plain and simple. That had nothing to do with any type of failure on the parts of his teammates.


The point I was trying to make is that they parallel each other in certain ways yet when it comes down to it Team 7 has showed the stronger resolve. Naruto never gave up, no matter what. Sasuke found redemption even when it seemed like a lost cause. Sakura grew a pair and showed she wasnt afraid to kick ass when it wa needed even though everyone thought she was usless.

#36 Ace1225

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 08:55 AM

The point I was trying to make is that they parallel each other in certain ways yet when it comes down to it Team 7 has showed the stronger resolve. Naruto never gave up, no matter what. Sasuke found redemption even when it seemed like a lost cause. Sakura grew a pair and showed she wasnt afraid to kick ass when it wa needed even though everyone thought she was usless.

LOL no they haven't. Sasuke didn't even come close to committing crimes as atrocious as Orochimaru. That's the point I was making. It's therefore not appropriate to say that Naruto and Sakura had the stronger resolve, when their teammate wasn't nearly as bad as Jiraiya and Tsunade's. You could actually make an argument for Sasuke also being allowed to get off for his crimes and to walk away. You can't even begin to do that for Orochimaru.

 

It'd be like having a group of friends, with one being a jerk and a second group with one being a murderer, yet because the second group rightfully stopped trying to hang out with their murdering friend you'd say the first had the stronger resolve. That's silly.


Edited by Ace1225, 22 May 2015 - 09:01 AM.

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I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#37 waleuska

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 09:00 AM

The point I was trying to make is that they parallel each other in certain ways yet when it comes down to it Team 7 has showed the stronger resolve. Naruto never gave up, no matter what. Sasuke found redemption even when it seemed like a lost cause. Sakura grew a pair and showed she wasnt afraid to kick ass when it wa needed even though everyone thought she was usless.

hahaha

 

 

 


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#38 Ace1225

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 09:04 AM

Also, Sakura's resolve in the entire situation was an absolute zero. Naruto proved he had resolve. Sakura did absolutely nothing to go after Sasuke, try to redeem Sasuke, or to ensure his return to the village one day. She dumped the entire situation on Naruto, felt bad about it, tried to kill Sasuke, and failed twice in the same day because she couldn't go through with it. Then she spent the rest of the series feeling bad about it. Her resolve is as weak as tap water.


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I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#39 Hellion

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 10:14 AM

Im not going to go back and forth. Sasuke was headed to a point of no return, he got better. Sakura ok ill concede to your argument about her but in the end shr stopped being useless and Naruto is Naruto. You keep bringing up Oorochimaru as someone who couldn't be saved. but Jiraya wanted to save him no matter the cost but wasn't able to so he gave up. If it were Naruto how would keep on trying and thats the point i was trying to mak This is the guy that was able to make peace with his parents killer

#40 Ace1225

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 09:27 AM

Im not going to go back and forth. Sasuke was headed to a point of no return, he got better. Sakura ok ill concede to your argument about her but in the end shr stopped being useless and Naruto is Naruto. You keep bringing up Oorochimaru as someone who couldn't be saved. but Jiraya wanted to save him no matter the cost but wasn't able to so he gave up. If it were Naruto how would keep on trying and thats the point i was trying to mak This is the guy that was able to make peace with his parents killer

Jiraiya gave up because Orochimaru's crimes were worse than Sasuke's, it's again silly to say Naruto has a stronger resolve, when he was tested nearly as badly as Jiraiya was. You can say you think Naruto would've continued to try to save Sasuke had he been Orochimaru, but it didn't happen so it's a moot point. You can't try to state a fact based on an opinion. Sasuke headed to a point of no return, Orochimaru flew beyond it. Jiraiya wanted to save his best friend before he found out that he'd committed uncountable atrocities, which Sasuke didn't commit. Sasuke did nothing major at the end of the day to make Naruto give up on him, so obviously Naruto didn't. Sasuke was also manipulated by other people, unlike Orochimaru who did everything he wanted to on his own, with his own teacher noting that he was always a messed up person. Your comparison makes no sense, plain and simple.

 

Obito is then a different situation as that's not his teammate or someone he spent years trying to save. That doesn't show any resolve on his part, especially when it was Obito himself, after the truth about Rin was revealed that chose to make a face heel turn and help the good guys.


Edited by Ace1225, 23 May 2015 - 09:29 AM.

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I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha





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