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[Mangaka] Kubo Tite (Part 10)


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#1 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:09 PM

Previous Thread
 

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Previous Ten Posts:
 

Ask the fans, because most dont care for him at all. I honestely dont understand why hes so low profile.

 

Apparently Aizen's fandom is a Western thing.
 
Japan has serious flop taste.

 

But they love Gin.
 
Western taste is just as bad, really.

 

Aizen isn't in 67. It's just the elites,RG, and the majority is Ichibei vs Bach. The soul King is stabbed at the end, so you can include him as well.

 

People seem to think Matsumoto is hugely popular and Aizen not popular, when the characters are practically in the same place in the (now ancient) popularity polls.
 
They're either both popular, or both not popular. Fans can't claim one thing for the one character and another thing for the other.

 

True. 
 
 
 
 
Considering Matsumoto's fate though at the moment in the manga, I think her place in the fandom got overtaken by Orihime pretty much. Or Yoruichi.

 

I've never had the impression that Matsumoto was much popular, actually. It might be that people get that impression because she hangs out with Ice-Kun, who's extremely popular, or was.
 
But I guess the reason Aizen isn't very popular is because of his strange lack of style. Hes just looks somewhat evil, but he doesn't have a memorable appearance. I wouldn't go so far as to say that he's bland, but he looks just ordinary. I mean, Kenpachi, Gin, Yhwach, Ulquiorra, Grimmjow, Shunsui, Byakuya amongst others have a very memorable characteristic, Aizen just looks like superman.

 

Yes, but the last poll we have on how Japanese fans might view the characters didn't have Kenpachi and, especially, Kyouraku much ahead of Aizen in the poll. Kenpachi was the 15th most popular character. Kyouraku was 17th. Aizen was 23rd.
 
I don't call that much of a difference.
 
Here's another example: people talk about Sado as if he's extremely unpopular with the Japanese fans and Ikkaku as if he's extremely popular with the Japanese fans. Sado is 18th on that poll, and Ikkaku is 22nd. So, Kyouraku cannot be an example of a very popular character if Sado is an example of a very unpopular one. Ikkaku cannot be an example of a very popular character if both Sado and Aizen are examples of a very unpopular one.
 
Personally, I think the conclusions people jump to about the popularity of a fanbase in another country, when the only polls we have are years out of date, were probably never genuinely representative in the first place, and when the entire Japanese fandom has never been - and probably can never be - polled, tells us far more about the poster citing those 'conclusions' than it does about the reality of how popular or unpopular most characters really are.

 

I don't really think these polls represent much.

 

That's one of the points I made in my post.


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#2 ryuzaki07

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 02:04 PM

I mean, any one who has Hitsugaya as their favorite character clearly doesn't give two shots about BLEACH.

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#3 MRIII

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 05:12 PM

I mean, any one who has Hitsugaya as their favorite character clearly doesn't give two shots about BLEACH.

not a histugaya fan so excuse me if i dont understand your joke or statement correctly


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#4 ryuzaki07

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 06:19 PM

Its just that he is about the only character I just can't rationalize anyone seriously liking in any way.

He barely has any screen time at all.

He hasn't changed his demeanor in the slightest since his introduction.

His design is the most generic and predictable out of perhaps all of the captain. I mean, he's a kid that's so strong he's respected as a serious military officer who also has a strong sense of duty and justice. Oh golly gee, where have Ive seen this before? He's basically a walking trope at this point. Now tropes by themselves are not bad, if they're expanded and explored. I can't see any of that for poor Hitsu. He's a classic child prodigy.

I mean, when you take into consideration all the care that Kubo has while designing a character, its very odd that he would ever come up with such one, to the point where I have to question if Kubo just knew such a character was popular and decided to have him as fanbait. I mean, Hitsugaya seems to have behind him a design philosophy that's simply not the same as Kubos.

Everything from his looks to his personality isn't very much BLEACH like. There's no twist to him, there's nothing that he subverts or expands upon. He's a shell of a character that never blossoms into a unique personality.

We saw Kubo twist and give depht to characters that would have otherwise been generic and boring. Like Zaraki, Urahara, Mayuri, Koma, Shunsui, Soi Fon, Gin. Hitsugaya just doesn't fit in with these.

I'm thinking people who have him as their absolute FAVORITE character just don't get or don't care for BLEACH at all.
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#5 NGEFan

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 12:14 AM

Hitsugaya has had fantastic development.  He has gone from a spoiled kid to what I can only describe as zombietacular.


Edited by NGEFan, 27 May 2015 - 12:16 AM.

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#6 ryuzaki07

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 02:17 PM

Hitsugaya has had fantastic development. He has gone from a spoiled kid to what I can only describe as zombietacular.

One could say he's now a rotten spoiled kid.
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#7 Milareppa

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:51 PM

I'm thinking people who have him as their absolute FAVORITE character just don't get or don't care for BLEACH at all.


Liking or disliking a character is completely subjective. It's got almost nothing to do with whether or not a person 'gets' the work. A person certainly does not fail or succeed in 'getting' a work solely on the basis of whether or not their opinion is the same as yours.
 

As it happens, Kubo has discussed Hitsugaya in interviews. He said he never expected Hitsugaya to become quite as popular as the character ended up becoming, so that was a surprise to him. However, he did say the character needed to be popular to work - he said if Hitsugaya had not been popular at all, it would have been a big problem for him.

 

I've mentioned before what my theory is on why Kubo needed Hitsugaya to be popular and what role Hitsugaya was designed to play in the story.

 

I disagree with you on the idea that Hitsugaya is a classic example of a child prodigy. Child prodigies are typically set up to be characters that cannot fail, and which all other characters either get written as stupid, or the kid takes over the entire plot and does the thinking for everyone (even when it doesn't make sense to do so) just to make the kid look good. A large part of the reason for this is, I suspect, that most writers have no idea what a child prodigy is and how to write one, so the kid (like most 'genius' characters in storytelling) suddenly becomes capable of leaps of logic that would require even real life geniuses to be psychic or telepathic to be able to know. Kubo doesn't make Hitsugaya perfect or infalliable or the one coming up with the solutions. On the contrary, he's made it clear that Hitsugaya's youth and inexperience is a liability. Given the sheer amount of child characters and child prodigies I've encountered in stories over the years, I actually find Kubo's portrayal of Hitsugaya as someone who still has to struggle despite the label to be one of his better, and more refreshing, decisions.


Edited by Milareppa, 27 May 2015 - 05:55 PM.

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#8 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 06:03 PM

Kubo doesn't make Hitsugaya perfect or infalliable or the one coming up with the solutions. On the contrary, he's made it clear that Hitsugaya's youth and inexperience is a liability. Given the sheer amount of child characters and child prodigies I've encountered in stories over the years, I actually find Kubo's portrayal of Hitsugaya as someone who still has to struggle despite the label to be one of his better, and more refreshing, decisions.

 

Heck, Aizen even mentioned (via inner monologue) Hitsugaya's youth before exploiting it to simultaneously down four captains.


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#9 TheLastPierrot

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 06:10 PM

Hitsugaya has had fantastic development.  He has gone from a spoiled kid to what I can only describe as zombietacular.

ironically his zombie version got to be in one of my fav fights in Bleach while his usual self is way more boring


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#10 ryuzaki07

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 08:08 PM


Liking or disliking a character is completely subjective. It's got almost nothing to do with whether or not a person 'gets' the work. A person certainly does not fail or succeed in 'getting' a work solely on the basis of whether or not their opinion is the same as yours.

As subjective as it is, it doesnt come from nowhere. There must be some reasons before anyone goes around and says they like said character. I just dont see how someone that likes Hitsugaya above all the other characters in BLEACH would care for the most proeminet characters or the plot at all. 

 


He said he never expected Hitsugaya to become quite as popular as the character ended up becoming, so that was a surprise to him. However, he did say the character needed to be popular to work - he said if Hitsugaya had not been popular at all, it would have been a big problem for him.

Seems like he was just being humble, because that line of though is awful contradictory. If he needed the character to be popular (which by the way is basically the only reason he exists) then how could he not expect him to be? He wrote him with that thought in mind.

 


Child prodigies are typically set up to be characters that cannot fail, and which all other characters either get written as stupid, or the kid takes over the entire plot and does the thinking for everyone (even when it doesn't make sense to do so) just to make the kid look good

Thats because Hitsugaya is a character in BLEACH. Hes a classic child prodigy in an unclassic setting. His character doenst work in this setting. The only reason he is here is to be popular, which he is, despite being a huge failure most of the time. Hes popular no matter how disconnected and irrelevant he is.  

 

Its actually pretty genius, as his character is popular despite doing nothing cool or relevant. Usually, as youve said, these types of character get the spotlight and never let go, but Hitsugaya has barely had his 15 minutes, and hes supposedly the most popular character in the series. Its bizarre. 

 


Kubo doesn't make Hitsugaya perfect or infalliable or the one coming up with the solutions. On the contrary, he's made it clear that Hitsugaya's youth and inexperience is a liability

But Hitsugaya still acts and talks like a classic child prodigy. Hitsugaya acts and talks like one, he just cant do what these types of character usually do because Kubo himself doesnt allow for it. Yet Hitsugaya, despite all of his failures to protect Hinamori and shit, still hasnt shown any sign of changing this atititude,  much like these types of characters act like. He acts and talks as if he was in a setting that could accomodate him to the fullest, but BLEACH just wont allow for him to do that. Its like if you take a character from Fairy Tail and puts him in a manga like Berserk. Would you agree that someone that reads Berserk, but has the Fairy Tail character as his favorite, would be better off reading Fairy Tail? Hitsugaya may have disavantadges, but I never saw him acknoledging it, at least not in a meaningful manner. Hes a classic child prodigy in BLEACH, which doesnt mean a lot, if anything. 

 

I mean, look at him now. Hes in this situation because he used his Bankai without need. Meaning that he made an immature, rash decision, which indicates he hasnt grown at all. Hes not trying to make up for his inexperience, hes just going all out and hoping for the best, until he meets someone like Bazz-B and completely wrecks his shit. Hes a static character that the reader has barely any insight on him at all. 

 

To put it simply, hes not a "BLEACH" character.


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#11 MRIII

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 05:53 AM

Its just that he is about the only character I just can't rationalize anyone seriously liking in any way.

He barely has any screen time at all.

He hasn't changed his demeanor in the slightest since his introduction.

His design is the most generic and predictable out of perhaps all of the captain. I mean, he's a kid that's so strong he's respected as a serious military officer who also has a strong sense of duty and justice. Oh golly gee, where have Ive seen this before? He's basically a walking trope at this point. Now tropes by themselves are not bad, if they're expanded and explored. I can't see any of that for poor Hitsu. He's a classic child prodigy.

I mean, when you take into consideration all the care that Kubo has while designing a character, its very odd that he would ever come up with such one, to the point where I have to question if Kubo just knew such a character was popular and decided to have him as fanbait. I mean, Hitsugaya seems to have behind him a design philosophy that's simply not the same as Kubos.

Everything from his looks to his personality isn't very much BLEACH like. There's no twist to him, there's nothing that he subverts or expands upon. He's a shell of a character that never blossoms into a unique personality.

We saw Kubo twist and give depht to characters that would have otherwise been generic and boring. Like Zaraki, Urahara, Mayuri, Koma, Shunsui, Soi Fon, Gin. Hitsugaya just doesn't fit in with these.

I'm thinking people who have him as their absolute FAVORITE character just don't get or don't care for BLEACH at all.

i would debate this but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


 

Heck, Aizen even mentioned (via inner monologue) Hitsugaya's youth before exploiting it to simultaneously down four captains.

and outloud to him


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#12 ryuzaki07

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 10:03 AM

i would debate this but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

My entitlement still exists whether you debate it or not, though. If you have something to say, then say it.

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#13 KittyGoesMeowMeow

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 11:37 AM

Does it matter? Hitsugaya is dead at the moment. He's probably with Mayuri (along with Tits McGee and the failzards), but still...he dead nao. 

 

Or he dead until Kubo revives him.



#14 ryuzaki07

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 11:47 AM

You're absolutely right. Hitsugaya is gone, meaning that whatever Kubo needed him for doesn't matter anymore.

Inb4 a rotting corpse charts the next poll.
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#15 MRIII

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 01:50 PM

My entitlement still exists whether you debate it or not, though. If you have something to say, then say it.

Which is why debating it is pointless lol  :D


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#16 ryuzaki07

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 02:19 PM

Which is why debating it is pointless lol  :D

Im still entitled to changing my opinion, though. 


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#17 Milareppa

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 04:46 PM

As subjective as it is, it doesnt come from nowhere.


I never said it did.
 

I just dont see how someone that likes Hitsugaya above all the other characters in BLEACH would care for the most proeminet characters or the plot at all.


It doesn't matter whether you comprehend why someone might like a character you dislike (or dislike a character you might like). It doesn't automatically make their opinion more or less valid than your own. It certainly should never be argued by anyone that a difference of opinion indicates the other person doesn't 'get' the work.
 

Seems like he was just being humble, because that line of though is awful contradictory. If he needed the character to be popular (which by the way is basically the only reason he exists) then how could he not expect him to be? He wrote him with that thought in mind.


It's not contradictory at all. You can want something to be popular and then be startled to discover it's even more popular than you'd ever hoped for. Indeed, the level of Hitsugaya's popularity in Japan has actually caused a few problems in the past (I'm specifically thinking of the advertising for the second film which made Japanese fans temporarily think Hitsugaya would be killed off - Kubo and the anime team had to very quickly apologise for any confusion caused because the fans went a little cuckoo).

Kubo's on record as saying it's his preference for his characters to be liked for the right reason (and the reason might change from character to character). When he found out that Hisagi was extremely popular from the outset, he admitted he didn't like it. He wanted Hisagi to be liked for the character he was, but he hadn't even introduced the character's personality or motivations yet. He wanted the character to be liked for the personality and fans jumped the gun.
 

Thats because Hitsugaya is a character in BLEACH. Hes a classic child prodigy in an unclassic setting.


What do you regard as a 'classic child prodigy'?
Why do you think Bleach is an 'unclassic setting'?
 

His character doenst work in this setting. The only reason he is here is to be popular, which he is, despite being a huge failure most of the time. Hes popular no matter how disconnected and irrelevant he is.


Why do you personally think a character who doesn't auto-succeed at something is a failure?
Why do you think a character who does fail cannot be likeable?
Why do you think he's disconnected, and what do you mean when you say that?
Why do you think he's irrelevant?
 

Its actually pretty genius, as his character is popular despite doing nothing cool or relevant.


What do you consider 'cool' or 'relevant'?
 

Usually, as youve said, these types of character get the spotlight and never let go, but Hitsugaya has barely had his 15 minutes, and hes supposedly the most popular character in the series. Its bizarre.


Given that the biggest complaint I hear across the Internet is that Hitsugaya is over-exposed, why do you think the opposite?
 

But Hitsugaya still acts and talks like a classic child prodigy.


How does he act and talk like a classic child prodigy?
 

Hitsugaya acts and talks like one, he just cant do what these types of character usually do because Kubo himself doesnt allow for it. Yet Hitsugaya, despite all of his failures to protect Hinamori and shit, still hasnt shown any sign of changing this atititude,


Changing what attitude, and what attitude would you like him to change it to?
 

He acts and talks as if he was in a setting that could accomodate him to the fullest, but BLEACH just wont allow for him to do that.


What setting could accommodate him to the fullest?
Why doesn't Bleach allow him to do that?
 

Its like if you take a character from Fairy Tail and puts him in a manga like Berserk. Would you agree that someone that reads Berserk, but has the Fairy Tail character as his favorite, would be better off reading Fairy Tail?


I can't answer your question. I don't read either Fairy Tail or Berserk. While I have occasionally read parts of Berserk and might one day get around to reading it properly, I have never even seen the front cover of Fairy Tail, let alone read any of it.
 

Hitsugaya may have disavantadges, but I never saw him acknoledging it, at least not in a meaningful manner.


What do you view his disadvantages as being, and what you view as meaningful acknowledgement?
 

I mean, look at him now. Hes in this situation because he used his Bankai without need. Meaning that he made an immature, rash decision, which indicates he hasnt grown at all.


What needless use of his Bankai do you refer to, and how did it lead him to his current situation?
 

Hes not trying to make up for his inexperience, hes just going all out and hoping for the best, until he meets someone like Bazz-B and completely wrecks his shit.


What behaviour would you interpret as being 'trying to make up for his inexperience'? How did he 'wreck his shit'?
 

Hes a static character that the reader has barely any insight on him at all.


At the moment, it's your stance I barely have any insight in. I hope you don't mind all the questions as I try and understand where your stance comes from.
 

To put it simply, hes not a "BLEACH" character.


What do you regard as a 'Bleach character'?

Edited by Milareppa, 29 May 2015 - 04:49 PM.

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#18 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 05:16 PM

It seems Hitsugaya just can't win within parts of the fandom: on the one hand, he's an overexposed creator's pet with tremendous amounts of plot armor and Marty Stu-like qualities, one who doesn't nearly deserve all of the attention he receives (not only in the manga, but in the anime and in overall marketing for the series); on the other hand, he's a weak, arrogant, constant failure of a wet-behind-the-ears child who deserves neither the "genius" nor "prodigy" labels because when compared to other characters of similar strength and talent, he's merely a measuring stick or a Worf.

 

I've seen this kind of contradictory attitude over the years and on other forums, so it's nothing new.

 

I have never even seen the front cover of Fairy Tail, let alone read any of it.

 

Very wise, Mila.

 

Very wise.


Edited by PlasmaWolf, 29 May 2015 - 05:16 PM.

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#19 Sir Donovan

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 10:16 AM

Ok so I lost track exactly which chapter was ranked this week by bleach. I believe it was chapter 621. Whatever the case is , it ranked second to last this week. Now bleach is constantly bottom 3 instead of top of the bottom 5 lol.

#20 ryuzaki07

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 11:42 AM

It seems Hitsugaya just can't win within parts of the fandom: on the one hand, he's an overexposed creator's pet with tremendous amounts of plot armor and Marty Stu-like qualities, one who doesn't nearly deserve all of the attention he receives (not only in the manga, but in the anime and in overall marketing for the series); on the other hand, he's a weak, arrogant, constant failure of a wet-behind-the-ears child who deserves neither the "genius" nor "prodigy" labels because when compared to other characters of similar strength and talent, he's merely a measuring stick or a Worf.

I've seen this kind of contradictory attitude.

It would seem as if you interpret both these stances as contradictory, without never considering they actually compliment each other. Its only contradictory to someone who doesn't want to think too much into it.

You see, these both "contradictory" stances are, in this particular case, complimentary. Hitsugaya is a character whose structure doesn't fit the setting. It could be said that he's a contradiction on itself. When you take that into consideration, it becomes clear that these seemingly opposite views actually are halfs of one big point.

You see, its Hitsugayas attitude coupled with the overall setting that creates both of these points. One speaks to his relevance in the setting, and another speaks to his overall attitude. Since his attitude and the setting are so bizarrely unfiting, both of these points are valid, despite them being seemingly contradictive at face value.

But then again, interpreting things at face value would lead into these misunderstandings eventually.

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