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[Mangaka] Kubo Tite (Part 10)


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#21 KittyGoesMeowMeow

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 02:38 PM

That picture of Kubo with his hands up like, 'I DIDNT DO IT IT WAS KISHIMOTO OFFICER' is making me laugh for some reason...


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#22 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 04:36 PM

Ok so I lost track exactly which chapter was ranked this week by bleach. I believe it was chapter 621. Whatever the case is , it ranked second to last this week. Now bleach is constantly bottom 3 instead of top of the bottom 5 lol.

 
The ranking for issue No. 27 was reflective of chapter 622 (Aizen being badass while sitting in The Chair), and it was ranked dead last.
 

It would seem as if you interpret both these stances as contradictory, without never considering they actually compliment each other. Its only contradictory to someone who doesn't want to think too much into it.

 
I don't them "interpret" them as such; they are contradictory. The people who don't want to think too much into it are those who tend to have a predilection for bashing one character or another without context of the circumstances, and in many cases, regardless of the circumstances.
 
Hitsugaya might as well be a poster-child recipient for this kind of criticism.
 

You see, these both "contradictory" stances are, in this particular case, complimentary. Hitsugaya is a character whose structure doesn't fit the setting. It could be said that he's a contradiction on itself. When you take that into consideration, it becomes clear that these seemingly opposite views actually are halfs of one big point.

 
I noticed that you still have defined how Hitsugaya as a character doesn't "fit the setting." If Hitsugaya were written differently, people would be accusing Kubo of turning him into a Marty Stu. Hitsugaya is an idealistic, overachieving youth who is constantly thrust into adult-oriented situations. The universe in which he exists is very dark and dreary at times, but still falls towards the optimistic side of things. In spite of all this, Hitsugaya routinely fails, falls shorts of his objectives, and is reminded over and over (in brutal ways) that he's still only a child—with a child's mentality and a child's biology.
 
How is Hitsugaya a contradiction? You haven't explained these labels.
 

You see, its Hitsugayas attitude coupled with the overall setting that creates both of these points. One speaks to his relevance in the setting, and another speaks to his overall attitude. Since his attitude and the setting are so bizarrely unfiting, both of these points are valid, despite them being seemingly contradictive at face value.

 
Hitsugaya's attitude and behavior are in alignment with most characters around his (biological) age who are featured in conventional shounen settings; Bleach itself is fairly conventional for a shounen world, even if it does blur the line every now and them. Those like Hitsugaya have become somewhat clichéd characters over the years precisely because of the intended audience; a character like Hitsugaya is therefore meant to symbolize the coming-of-age (typically male) youth, to whom the series is mainly targeted. The average age of the intended demographic reading Bleach on a weekly basis and/or those who grew up with the series is under fifteen, and it's because Hitsugaya rarely succeeds within the confines of the story (separate from the meta plot) that he became such a popular character within the Japanese fandom (among other reasons, but many find/found him relatable).
 
Kubo decided to use Hitsugaya to deconstruct the template: by the time he was introduced in the Soul Society arc, Hitsugaya was already the youngest captain in history and was shown to be a rational, mature person; especially for someone his age. All Kubo did was turn the concept of "child prodigy" on its head by illustrating how it's not rainbows and sunshine for young achievers who become very accomplished rather quickly.
 
In the end, the young genius was played for a fool by the Big Bad and his Dragon, and was singled-out in particular among his peers because they understood how easy it would be to manipulate him. Aizen then used a similar tactic during the FKT battles, and we all know how that ended.
 
Hitsugaya is a deconstruction of the wunderkind trope.
 
If Kubo had applied the same trope to a different personality, Hitsugaya could have become bland, an insufferable genius, a jerkish brat, a blatant Marty Stu (minus the sex symbol factor, but even that's nothing a timeskip or two couldn't fix), or any other number of inferior portrayals.
 
Also? Aizen's backstory (what little of it exists) draws a nice parallel between him and Hitsugaya: both of them were smart, strong, and talented from a young age, but shunned from others due to an off-putting quality (implied in both cases to be their respective reiatsu). Hitsugaya was fortunate; he had Matsumoto show him the way and if not for her influence, who knows what choices he would have made. Meanwhile, it's been suggested that Aizen was ostracized because of his power and accordingly wore a tight facade—both to hide his true self and to eventually fool his colleagues into liking and believing in someone who didn't exist. The point is, Hitsugaya could have very well ended up traversing down the path that Aizen ultimately took, if not for having people about whom he cared (Hinamori, his grandmother) and if not for the timely intervention of a concerned stranger.

 

That picture of Kubo with his hands up like, 'I DIDNT DO IT IT WAS KISHIMOTO OFFICER' is making me laugh for some reason...

 

It's a parody of the Neil deGrasse Tyson "Watch out, we got a badass over here" meme.


Edited by PlasmaWolf, 31 May 2015 - 04:37 PM.

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#23 ryuzaki07

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 07:00 PM


I don't them "interpret" them as such; they are contradictory. The people who don't want to think too much into it are those who tend to have a predilection for bashing one character or another without context of the circumstances, and in many cases, regardless of the circumstances.

I am absolutely astonished that you completely glossed over my previous post only to make the exact same point I made and then proceed to negate it not a sentence further. These points are not contradictory exactly because of the circumstances. They both work BECAUSE of the circumstances. The circumstances would have Hitsugayas character develop accordingly, but he doesnt.

 


If Hitsugaya were written differently, people would be accusing Kubo of turning him into a Marty Stu

Yeah right. Because theres only two ways Kubo could write him, arent there? 

 


Hitsugaya is an idealistic, overachieving youth who is constantly thrust into adult-oriented situations. The universe in which he exists is very dark and dreary at times, but still falls towards the optimistic side of things. In spite of all this, Hitsugaya routinely fails, falls shorts of his objectives, and is reminded over and over (in brutal ways) that he's still only a child—with a child's mentality and a child's biology.
 
How is Hitsugaya a contradiction? You haven't explained these labels.

I have, you merely ignored them. Hitsugaya is supposedly an overachiever but underachieves most of the time, which is actually not really his fault, as most of his peers also mostly fall short. The contradiction lies in him not learning anything from his failures and still keeping essencially the same attitude he was introduced with. One would expect a character to grow significantly after getting BTFO so many times, yet hes basically the one captain which didnt try to improve himself after getting his bankai stolen, which has been his true ace in the hole the entire series. Yes, hes supposedly an overachiever and a quick learner, but the best thing he did was use his bankai. It simply doesnt add up, he has barely used anything else, such as Kidou or Hohou or some Zanjutsu. His bankai is good but isnt something guaranteed to work, so the question is: Why has this quick learner not bothered to learn anything else? Hes supposed to be comparatively weak, but he barely makes an effort to grow stronger. Hes been the same character for the entirety of BLEACH, even when his potential for growth has been stated numerous times.

 

Lets compare him to the other captains that had their Bankai stolen, just as to illustrate just how Hitsugaya doesnt fit in:

 

Byakuya- Had an enormous power up, but most notably he learned how to properly use Sembonzakura while he was being massacred by his own bankai.

Soi Fon-  Learned a shunpou technique that managed to crack BG9s armor a bit, which is a huge thing when we take into account how actual little damage it recieved from her own bankai. Shes basically on the process to fighting with no zampakuto at all much like Yoruichi.

Koma- Well, what he did was ultimately self destructive and completely went agaisnt everything he stood for up until then, but negative development is still development so it counts. More so than Byakuya and Soi Fon, because the charac ter completely changed himself for a moment, and it had a very severe repercussion. 

Hitsugaya- Basically tried to use his Shikai while trying to run away from an opponent he clearly underestimated. 

 

You see how completely static the character is? His very presence is a huge contradiction when everything hes been set up to be turns out to not happen.

 


Hitsugaya's attitude and behavior are in alignment with most characters around his (biological) age who are featured in conventional shounen settings; Bleach itself is fairly conventional for a shounen world, even if it does blur the line every now and them

You know, you cant just claim these things. Shounen is a very old demographic/genre that has evolved over the years. And BLEACH is quite different from other shounen that are contemporary to it. Why exacly is BLEACH fairly conventional? Why do you keep saying that yet never really have you explained why? Conventional is simply a comparision that could have quite the amount of foundations. You could call it conventional based upon some things, yet unique based on others, so this sentence barely contitutes and argument.

 


a character like Hitsugaya is therefore meant to symbolize the coming-of-age (typically male) youth, to whom the series is mainly targeted

Is he? Says who? How can a static character like him ever hope to illustrate such a complex concept like that? 

 


and it's because Hitsugaya rarely succeeds within the confines of the story (separate from the meta plot) that he became such a popular character within the Japanese fandom (among other reasons, but many find/found him relatable)

And wheres the source youve lifted that information from? Or are you simply guessing? I mean, he was popular since the early polls right? How could people identify with his failures if they havent already occured by then? Time traveling? Also, he might be a failure, but how are people supposed to relate wityh him if he doenst really acknoledges his own failures? He never seems bothered by them, so how is he relatable? 

 

I would say that hes popular because of how he was designed. Hes just a pretty boy who talks cool. From my experience with the shounen audience, these types of characters are always the most popular. But Hitsugaya dials this up to eleven.  Hes not relatable, hes just pretty. 

 


All Kubo did was turn the concept of "child prodigy" on its head by illustrating how it's not rainbows and sunshine for young achievers who become very accomplished rather quickly.

Exaclty. He turned the concept, not the character. For as much as he fails, he doenst change. The character might have had the concept on which hes based on tuned on its head, but the character still acts very much like he was still kicking all kinds of ass. Theres the contradiction: The concept was denied, but the character didnt get the memo.

 


Hitsugaya is a deconstruction of the wunderkind trope.

No, thats Asuka from NGE. A character thats actually viewned as a child prodigy, but completely loses herself when things dont go her way, showing just how immature she is. Of course, she acknoledges this thoughout the series, and this deeply affects her and her actions. Hitsugaya still acts the same. Hes still the same brat he we were introduced to over a decade ago. Asuka reacts to her many failures, Hitsu barely acknoledges them. You see, if Kubo wants to actually decontruct anything, then he should write him as such. Saying that hes a decontruction of anything is extremely pretentious. Hes amongst the shallowest recurring characters in BLEACH, if not THE shallowest. Im sorry, but to compare this character to the complex writing process that is a deconstruction is just offensively insane. Whats next? Three paragraphs about how Sasuke is a deconstruction for the "best friend" trope? 

 


Hitsugaya could have become bland, an insufferable genius, a jerkish brat, a blatant Marty Stu (minus the sex symbol factor, but even that's nothing a timeskip or two couldn't fix), or any other number of inferior portrayals.

Hes already all of that minus the marty stu part. He merely acts as a marty stu, which makes him even more insufferable. Also, hes very much a sex symbol. Go look for him on Deviantart, or even some doujinshi.

 

Actually, dont. 

 


Also? Aizen's backstory (what little of it exists) draws a nice parallel between him and Hitsugaya: both of them were smart, strong, and talented from a young age, but shunned from others due to an off-putting quality (implied in both cases to be their respective reiatsu). Hitsugaya was fortunate; he had Matsumoto show him the way and if not for her influence, who knows what choices he would have made. Meanwhile, it's been suggested that Aizen was ostracized because of his power and accordingly wore a tight facade—both to hide his true self and to eventually fool his colleagues into liking and believing in someone who didn't exist. The point is, Hitsugaya could have very well ended up traversing down the path that Aizen ultimately took, if not for having people about whom he cared (Hinamori, his grandmother) and if not for the timely intervention of a concerned stranger.

Quite the shallow comparision you got there. Aizens backstory is still very much a mistery. All weve got to go on is Ichigos take on him, which while it might be credible enough, is biased by his own experiences. 

 

Also, Hitsugaya is from the nicer parts of rukongai. We have no idea where Aizen is from. We do know, though, that Zaraki is from the worst, but even then he wasnt turned into a treacherous bastard like Aizen. If even a blood seeking demon like Zaraki was able to find someone like Yachiru in the worst places of SS, what is Aizens excuse for turning out like he did? Hitsugaya wasnt fortunate, he just wanst a complete two-faced asshole to everyone he ever met, which is how I suspect Aizen always was. Its not that Hitsu was fortunate, he was just legitimately kind to people, like Zaraki was kind to Yachiru and Ikkakku (in his own way, of course). For Aizen to not have had a single person that cared about him was completely his own fault. He probably saw people as inferior and kept himself closed and distant. Hes a manipulative asshole that was rightly shunned from society. If even Zaraki found people that cared for him, Aizen really has no excuse.

 

Of course, none of that actually says anything about the writing of Hitsugaya, if not what ive already said. 


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#24 Sir Donovan

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 12:49 AM


The ranking for issue No. 27 was reflective of chapter 622 (Aizen being badass while sitting in The Chair), and it was ranked dead last.


Alright thanks for the clarification. The Japanese must be salty about the way Aizen was defeated back in FKT cause he is getting no love lmao.

Also if any one is interested here's the halfway manga sales for 2015-http://www.animenews...ies-2015/.88770

Bleach is 24th

#25 Tenno

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 04:37 PM

Alright thanks for the clarification. The Japanese must be salty about the way Aizen was defeated back in FKT cause he is getting no love lmao.

Also if any one is interested here's the halfway manga sales for 2015-http://www.animenews...ies-2015/.88770

Bleach is 24th

 

If they were Salty about his defeat... you'd think they'd be happy to see him.


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#26 KittyGoesMeowMeow

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 04:30 PM

Alright thanks for the clarification. The Japanese must be salty about the way Aizen was defeated back in FKT cause he is getting no love lmao.

Also if any one is interested here's the halfway manga sales for 2015-http://www.animenews...ies-2015/.88770

Bleach is 24th

 

 

You know that Aizen's not as popular in Japan as he is in the West, right?

 

and WTF JAPAN BLEACH BEAT GINTAMA?! 



#27 captain kidd

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 04:33 PM

You know that Aizen's not as popular in Japan as he is in the West, right?

 

and WTF JAPAN BLEACH BEAT GINTAMA?! 

 

why not? Aizen IS bleach, to hate Aizen is to hate bleach.

 

only 10 more chapters until we find out that Aizen created YH........ All according to plan....


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#28 KittyGoesMeowMeow

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 04:38 PM

why not? Aizen IS bleach, to hate Aizen is to hate bleach.

 

only 10 more chapters until we find out that Aizen created YH........ All according to plan....

 

 

I was talking in terms of Japan. This is the same country who loves their shota and apparently Grimmjaw 

 

Me? I used to hate Aizen back in the FKT arc but I can't stand how OP'd Ywach is anymore, so I kind of miss Aizen's humor.

 

However, Kubo has made me seriously hate just about every fucking shinigami anymore so I want Ywach to DESTROY THEM. And team up with Aizen so Aizen can fuck with him.


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#29 captain kidd

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 04:44 PM

I was talking in terms of Japan. This is the same country who loves their shota and apparently Grimmjaw 

 

Me? I used to hate Aizen back in the FKT arc but I can't stand how OP'd Ywach is anymore, so I kind of miss Aizen's humor.

 

However, Kubo has made me seriously hate just about every fucking shinigami anymore so I want Ywach to DESTROY THEM. And team up with Aizen so Aizen can fuck with him.

 

OH is that why Grimmjaw came back?

 

because the only thing i was thinking when i saw that was "wow........these guys defeated the number 3 espada and have her locked up somewhere.......what are YOU doing here? unless you are the number 2 espada get out of here, we don't need you (you have no banki I want to see)"


 
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#30 Saiyan5nine-tails

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 02:21 AM

@KittyGoesMeowMeow : You seem to take issue with the fact that, despite its seemingly poor reception, Bleach is still going stronger than the vast majority of the competition out there, even when it is no longer at its peak of popularity.  It is even lacking an anime, which I suspect is why Parasyte managed to find its way onto the list - Parasyte's original run was in the 80s and 90s, but in the last year it got both an anime and a live-action adaptation, both of which are bound to get new readers interested in an older work like Parasyte.

 

Bleach does not have an anime supporting it, films that advertise it, and Rock Musical Bleach has not put on a new performance since 2012.  As a result, Bleach has lost a lot of the major push that it had from these different media in the past three years.  Despite this, it is still keeping up there with those manga who do have those kinds of media supporting them. 

 

Toriko hasn't had that kind of luck, as it completely dropped out of that list soon after losing its anime. 

 

The rankings in the Shounen Jump Table of Contents might not seem favourable for Bleach (don't forget that six of the manga above Bleach are from the same magazine so it has very tough competition), but its volume sales still show that it still has more than enough popularity left to keep it as a top-seller, even if newer manga have come into the fold.  Hell, outside of One Piece, Naruto, Detective Conan and Parasyte, there is not a single manga in the 19 other spots above Bleach that are older than it.  All of them are not only younger, but many are fairly recent as well in terms of years, on top of some of them existing in different genres from Bleach. 

 

So Kubo is still doing things right in the eyes of his primary readership, despite how much we tend to focus on the ratings or the difference in sales caused from lack of promotion.

 

@captain kidd : If Grimmjow could attain a Segunda Etapa, he might have a chance because Ulquiorra demonstrated a vast boost in power compared to his normal Resurreccion in Segunda Etapa.  Imagine what that could do for Grimmjow, who has likely spent the last two years doing nothing but preparing for another bout with Ichigo. 


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#31 RandomRider

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 05:40 PM

It is as a very wise woman once told me:

"Girls like Grimmjow because he has a bara body with a bishie face. He doesn't commit fully to bara like Sado, which would kill his popularity nor is he too pretty."
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#32 captain kidd

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 07:14 PM

It is as a very wise woman once told me:

"Girls like Grimmjow because he has a bara body with a bishie face. He doesn't commit fully to bara like Sado, which would kill his popularity nor is he too pretty."

 

oh I get it!

 

just one last follow up question, what is a bara body? and a bishie face? is that japanese, or some meme i missed? or.....what?


 
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#33 KittyGoesMeowMeow

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 08:57 PM

@KittyGoesMeowMeow : You seem to take issue with the fact that, despite its seemingly poor reception, Bleach is still going stronger than the vast majority of the competition out there, even when it is no longer at its peak of popularity.  It is even lacking an anime, which I suspect is why Parasyte managed to find its way onto the list - Parasyte's original run was in the 80s and 90s, but in the last year it got both an anime and a live-action adaptation, both of which are bound to get new readers interested in an older work like Parasyte.

 

Bleach does not have an anime supporting it, films that advertise it, and Rock Musical Bleach has not put on a new performance since 2012.  As a result, Bleach has lost a lot of the major push that it had from these different media in the past three years.  Despite this, it is still keeping up there with those manga who do have those kinds of media supporting them. 

 

Toriko hasn't had that kind of luck, as it completely dropped out of that list soon after losing its anime. 

 

The rankings in the Shounen Jump Table of Contents might not seem favourable for Bleach (don't forget that six of the manga above Bleach are from the same magazine so it has very tough competition), but its volume sales still show that it still has more than enough popularity left to keep it as a top-seller, even if newer manga have come into the fold.  Hell, outside of One Piece, Naruto, Detective Conan and Parasyte, there is not a single manga in the 19 other spots above Bleach that are older than it.  All of them are not only younger, but many are fairly recent as well in terms of years, on top of some of them existing in different genres from Bleach. 

 

So Kubo is still doing things right in the eyes of his primary readership, despite how much we tend to focus on the ratings or the difference in sales caused from lack of promotion.

 

 

 

 

Jesus Christ...I know that Japan's taste is different.....THANK YOU FOR THE LECTURE THAT I DID NOT NEED.

 

it does surprise me that Bleach is still around, but hey evidentally someone's reading it so whatever. I can still say that Kubo sucks 

 

 

@captain kidd

 

I'm guessing since it's the last arc, Kubo's trying to include most characters from the past. 


 

oh I get it!

 

just one last follow up question, what is a bara body? and a bishie face? is that japanese, or some meme i missed? or.....what?

 

 

This. WTF is bara



#34 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 09:57 PM

just one last follow up question, what is a bara body? and a bishie face? is that japanese, or some meme i missed? or.....what?

 

This. WTF is bara

 

The term "bara" refers to the genre of male same-sex romance stories, but unlike yaoi, they're mainly written by gay people and intended for gay audiences. The body type of the typical male characters in those works is usually beefcake-muscular and with a certain amount of body hair, in contrast to the more slender and feminine-looking bishie characters whom one would find in a run-of-the-mill yaoi story (primarily aimed at girls and women).

 

It started out as fetish-like material, but developed over the years into a more serious form of art (the "bara" genre, that is).


Edited by PlasmaWolf, 03 June 2015 - 09:58 PM.

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#35 RandomRider

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:28 AM

To The G of Chan

I'm surprised you never learned that from Vin.

#36 Ultrafragor

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:36 AM


This. WTF is bara

 

Lololololololololol

 

Bara is hentai about bears. As opposed to yaoi. Which is about twinks. 

 

How have you gone this long without finding this out?


 

The term "bara" refers to the genre of male same-sex romance stories, but unlike yaoi, they're mainly written by gay people and intended for gay audiences. The body type of the typical male characters in those works is usually beefcake-muscular and with a certain amount of body hair, in contrast to the more slender and feminine-looking bishie characters whom one would find in a run-of-the-mill yaoi story (primarily aimed at girls and women).

 

It started out as fetish-like material, but developed over the years into a more serious form of art (the "bara" genre, that is).

 

On the other hand, I'm surprised you know what it is. 


 

To The G of Chan

I'm surprised you never learned that from Vin.

 

..............I'm not surprised with you, though


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#37 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:39 AM

On the other hand, I'm surprised you know what it is.

 

I know things. tfX4wLI.png


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#38 Ultrafragor

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:42 AM

 

Most people would say they know too much at this point.


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#39 RandomRider

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:42 AM

@Ultrafragor

It isn't knowledge I'm overly joyful to have. I was mostly pointing out that a friend of mine and G's is arguably the most yaoi obsessed fangirl ever.

Not sure how G dodged all that.

#40 captain kidd

captain kidd

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 12:19 PM

but........grimmjow is not muscular.......... he is a very skinny guy


 
captain "Nostradamus" kidd
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