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Right to Bear Arms and the Safety of Society


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#1 DarkNemesis

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 05:38 PM

In the US, we have the 2nd amendment which gives citizens the right to bear arms. But in recent years, the abuse of this right has been more prevalent in the media. For instance, two men were threatening/planning to shoot up a Pokemon tournament in Boston. Now reasons for this uptick in violence has been blamed on lax gun laws, mental health, and even not enough citizens with guns. And though the 2nd amendment originally was to allow the citizenry to protect themselves from a tyrannical government, it seems that it is now society that is more likely to cause such violence and upheaval than said government. Does the right to protect one's family need to include the right to have a gun? Does having a gun or guns increase the likelihood of violence or death? Or does it prevent or decrease it? Can laws be made to stem the purchases of guns to future/potential violent offenders? Is there any way to stem the flow of illegal guns or criminals are not armed as well as police? Does the previous question have side effects too dangerous for implementation?

 

In a perfect world, everyone would know how to use a gun and it would only be used in actual self-defense, sporting, or hunting. But this has become just a mainstay in the society, people committing violent almost terrorist acts with guns that the problem needs to be addressed if not acknowledged. IMO.

 

So is the 2nd amendment outdated? Has our fervor to keep the amendment blinded us to the idea of moderation and some regulation (I know dirty word) of gun ownership and use? Or is there really no problem and there's just a burst of violence which are actually far and few in between?*

 

 

*Last question added by prodding by Ganderath


Edited by DarkNemesis, 23 August 2015 - 06:02 PM.

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#2 Ganderath

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 05:47 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2...y-gun-homicide/

 

http://www.pewsocial...public-unaware/

 

http://www.npr.org/s...1993-study-says

 

http://www.washingto...36b8_story.html


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#3 DarkNemesis

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 06:02 PM

@Ganderath - First, Thank you for the links. Second, the follow up question is this: is it still declining or is it on the rise again?


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#4 Ganderath

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 06:13 PM

@Ganderath - First, Thank you for the links. Second, the follow up question is this: is it still declining or is it on the rise again?

As far as I can tell, it is still on a general decline.


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#5 disastrousmaster

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 06:56 AM

In the US, we have the 2nd amendment which gives citizens the right to bear arms. But in recent years, the abuse of this right has been more prevalent in the media. For instance, two men were threatening/planning to shoot up a Pokemon tournament in Boston. Now reasons for this uptick in violence has been blamed on lax gun laws, mental health, and even not enough citizens with guns. And though the 2nd amendment originally was to allow the citizenry to protect themselves from a tyrannical government, it seems that it is now society that is more likely to cause such violence and upheaval than said government. Does the right to protect one's family need to include the right to have a gun? Does having a gun or guns increase the likelihood of violence or death? Or does it prevent or decrease it? Can laws be made to stem the purchases of guns to future/potential violent offenders? Is there any way to stem the flow of illegal guns or criminals are not armed as well as police? Does the previous question have side effects too dangerous for implementation?

 

In a perfect world, everyone would know how to use a gun and it would only be used in actual self-defense, sporting, or hunting. But this has become just a mainstay in the society, people committing violent almost terrorist acts with guns that the problem needs to be addressed if not acknowledged. IMO.

 

So is the 2nd amendment outdated? Has our fervor to keep the amendment blinded us to the idea of moderation and some regulation (I know dirty word) of gun ownership and use? Or is there really no problem and there's just a burst of violence which are actually far and few in between?*

 

 

*Last question added by prodding by Ganderath

There is minor regulation on gun use, such as the prohibition of military grade equipment to civilian personnel (unless properly licensed by the US government for specific circumstances) However as I have said before in the previous gun control threads (believe we had like 3 or 4 before this one) I do believe that it does need a stricter regulation in regards to the users mental stability and health. Mental health tests mandatory for gun owners. I would be against a registry available to public access. Though I would be for a health record style weapons record. Available for visibility only with the consent of the individual in question. There are certain people that should not know what type of weapons you have in your household or how many of them you have.


Edited by disastrousmaster, 24 August 2015 - 06:57 AM.

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#6 retroluffy13

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 08:09 AM

the gun show loophole behind American waitlist periods disturbs me greatly. just saying.

if anything id say tats the biggest problem with how we regulate our guns. our other practices are pretty thorough and careful.

Edited by retroluffy13, 24 August 2015 - 08:10 AM.

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#7 Peleihno

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 10:19 AM

@Ganderath - First, Thank you for the links. Second, the follow up question is this: is it still declining or is it on the rise again?

Violent crime in general is in decline. 

 

That's what makes the colossal prison population even more troubling. 


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#8 ryuzaki07

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 02:43 PM

Eh, many countries would like to have criminality stats similar to the USA's. Including mine, on which guns are illegal.

Guns are a scapegoat for a larger issue.

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#9 waleuska

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 02:49 PM

Eh, many countries would like to have criminality stats similar to the USA's. Including mine, on which guns are illegal.

Guns are a scapegoat for a larger issue.

Our crime rate have nothing to do with gun control.

 

Less people own guns but the people who like guns are buying more of them.


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#10 Oben

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 02:55 PM

Eh, many countries would like to have criminality stats similar to the USA's. Including mine, on which guns are illegal.

Guns are a scapegoat for a larger issue.


Meh, assuming this were true, would you rather have a criminal country where everyone can arm themselves to a ridicolous extent, or a criminal country in which access is drastically limited?

Edited by Oben, 24 August 2015 - 02:55 PM.

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#11 Peleihno

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 03:18 PM

Our crime rate have nothing to do with gun control.
 
Less people own guns but the people who like guns are buying more of them.

I assume you are referring to the gun aficionados, they're not the problem, never were.

Their increased gun purchases hasn't hiked up gun crimes.
 

Meh, assuming this were true, would you rather have a criminal country where everyone can arm themselves to a ridicolous extent, or a criminal country in which access is drastically limited?

Neither.
 
I'm not interested in extremes, that's one of the reasons why the the gun control debate has been such a hot mess in this nation. 
 
A USA where access to firearms is drastically limited would be unconstitutional and never happen, anyway -- thank god for that.

Some changes need to be made though, no doubt.

Edited by Peleihno, 24 August 2015 - 03:23 PM.

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#12 Oben

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 03:28 PM

Neither.
 
I'm not interested in extremes, that's one of the reasons why the the gun control debate has been such a hot mess in this nation. 
 
A USA where access to firearms is drastically limited would be unconstitutional and never happen, anyway -- thank god for that.


Is drastically limiting access for civilians an extreme option though? It's doable and has been done without unintended side-effects.

(And a consitution, like any other law, should be changeable... anyway)

#13 waleuska

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 03:34 PM

I assume you are referring to the gun aficionados, they're not the problem, never were.

Their increased gun purchases hasn't hiked up gun crimes.
 
 

that wasn't my point. The point i was trying to make was that There are less people with guns now even if the number of guns out there is more.

 

My bad for not being clear.


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#14 ryuzaki07

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 04:34 PM

Meh, assuming this were true, would you rather have a criminal country where everyone can arm themselves to a ridicolous extent, or a criminal country in which access is drastically limited?

The one that allows the citizen to defend himself. Guns are a major part of American culture, you're rooted to them.

Honestly, I don't think you people will solve issues like school shootings and the such anytime soon. But honestly the homicide rate for your country makes me envious, but I don't think it's going to change drastically.Violence is rooted to culture, and it plagues western society as a whole.

Im used to live in a country that has the impressing number of over 50.000 homicides per year in 2012, and USA had a little less than 15.000. There's gun control here, so I don't think that the right to bear arms has any substancial effect on your country. I think that the culture behind it is the real villain.
 

that wasn't my point. The point i was trying to make was that There are less people with guns now even if the number of guns out there is more.

So what's your point?

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#15 waleuska

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 04:40 PM

 
So what's your point?

so I don't think that the right to bear arms has any substancial effect on your country. I think that the culture behind it is the real villain.

That more guns isn't the reason why the country is having less crime. 


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#16 disastrousmaster

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 04:43 PM

Is drastically limiting access for civilians an extreme option though? It's doable and has been done without unintended side-effects.

(And a consitution, like any other law, should be changeable... anyway)

yes there are no unintended side effects...or really much in the way of intended side effects either. Its kinda like a >.> so that happened. The main thing about the US though is that our nation was created with Militia and the fact that civilians had guns was one of the determinate factor to the reasoning our country was able to succeed in breaking off from the British nation. Our country has a lot of good and bad history with guns. Guns are basically a huge part of our nation both historically and currently. We grow up with guns. Trying to take them away from the citizens is like asking for a civil war. .-. especially in the southern states.

 

 

that wasn't my point. The point i was trying to make was that There are less people with guns now even if the number of guns out there is more.

 

My bad for not being clear.

In certain parts of the US there are less people with guns, in certain parts there are more. It all depends on where you grew up wale. As a hunter that grew up from a family that has always gone hunting when possible I, my brothers, and even my preacher of a mother, Own guns and know how to properly use them. So what is your issue with how many guns we own? different guns have different uses, such as the shotgun is better for hunting birds, the average rifle is better for hunting deer. a 22 pistol/rifle is better for hunting small game such as rabbits and squirrels. Larger pistols are better for home defense...and not much else if you ask me.

 

 

That more guns isn't the reason why the country is having less crime. 

It also Isn't showing an increase in crime though so what is your point...


Edited by disastrousmaster, 24 August 2015 - 04:46 PM.

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#17 waleuska

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 04:48 PM

 

It also Isn't showing an increase in crime though so what is your point...

That crime have nothing to do with guns.

 

I have yet to read an argument that shows why the crime rate in American have been going down since i think 93. But, i do know for sure it has nothing to do with guns.

 

For either argument that more guns means less crime or less guns means less crime.


Edited by waleuska, 24 August 2015 - 04:48 PM.

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#18 Oben

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 04:49 PM

The one that allows the citizen to defend himself. Guns are a major part of American culture, you're rooted to them.

Honestly, I don't think you people will solve issues like school shootings and the such anytime soon. But honestly the homicide rate for your country makes me envious, but I don't think it's going to change drastically.Violence is rooted to culture, and it plagues western society as a whole.

Im used to live in a country that has the impressing number of over 50.000 homicides per year in 2012, and USA had a little less than 15.000. There's gun control here, so I don't think that the right to bear arms has any substancial effect on your country. I think that the culture behind it is the real villain.


My country has very tough gun-laws, and the murder-rate in 2014 was 298*. I didn't miss any zeroes.
Now, these laws have been in place since decades, while in Brazil it was only since 2003 I believe? I think you need to value the time after introduction.

(*) That is finished murders. Other types of homicide (including failed tries and illegal abortion) amount to 2962.


Edited by Oben, 24 August 2015 - 05:30 PM.


#19 disastrousmaster

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 05:01 PM

That crime have nothing to do with guns.

 

I have yet to read an argument that shows why the crime rate in American have been going down since i think 93. But, i do know for sure it has nothing to do with guns.

Quite true(if you mean crime rate), though I imagine this years statistics will show a rather drastic increase...However that said, what are you currently arguing for/against with your statement of guns have nothing to do with crime rates.


 

My country has very tough gun-laws, and the murder-rate in 2014 was 298. I didn't miss any zeroes.
Now, these laws have been in place since decades, while in Brazil it was only since 2003 I believe? I think you need to value the time after introduction.

aww, well I wish Americans were as peace loving and non-violent as you guys Oben. We had about that many people stabbed to death in Cali in 2013.

 

https://www.fbi.gov/...eapons_2013.xls


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#20 waleuska

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 05:03 PM

Quite true(if you mean crime rate), though I imagine this years statistics will show a rather drastic increase...However that said, what are you currently arguing for/against with your statement of guns have nothing to do with crime rates.

I am anti-gun because it is the easiest way to kill people. Now, i do not mind people getting a gun to go hunting but other than that. For defensive purposes i need real proof that guns can save people lives more so than the criminal takes them. I know the government a year ago i think sent out a report that says that millions of people protected themselves while using guns the problem i have with that report is it was a survey.


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