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Right to Bear Arms and the Safety of Society


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#21 disastrousmaster

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 05:10 PM

I am anti-gun because it is the easiest way to kill people. Now, i do not mind people getting a gun to go hunting but other than that. For defensive purposes i need real proof that guns can save people lives more so than the criminal takes them. I know the government a year ago i think sent out a report that says that millions of people protected themselves while using guns the problem i have with that report is it was a survey.

well, primarily I would say the biggest part of a guns defense against other people is that it is a rather large deterrent for others to take action against you. The higher the chance they have of running into an armed person, the less likely they are to try to take action. I mean, its not really the best type of defense in a back alley or something.


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#22 waleuska

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 05:15 PM

well, primarily I would say the biggest part of a guns defense against other people is that it is a rather large deterrent for others to take action against you. The higher the chance they have of running into an armed person, the less likely they are to try to take action. I mean, its not really the best type of defense in a back alley or something.

If someone pulls a gun on you will you try to take out your gun to shoot them?

 

It just seems to me that whoever have their gun out first wins. A smart criminal that is going to ambush someone in an alley should have their gun out before their target knows that they are there.


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#23 Phenomiracle

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 05:24 PM

Is drastically limiting access for civilians an extreme option though? It's doable and has been done without unintended side-effects.

(And a consitution, like any other law, should be changeable... anyway)

 

No, it isn't. Mass restriction or buybacks aren't options in the States, a nation of over 320 million, where the majority of gun crime occurs in metropolitan, designated gun-free areas. Gov't (both at the state and federal level) are nowhere near competent to effectively enforce sweeping gun reform programs while ensuring the short and long-term safety of law-abiding civilians.

 

This sort of extremist ideal, along with the extreme right-wing stances against any sort of licensing or mandatory training is part of why all discussion on gun crime has screeched to a halt. American public is divided on gun laws, but there is thankfully no sizable support for either extreme.


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#24 disastrousmaster

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 05:37 PM

If someone pulls a gun on you will you try to take out your gun to shoot them?

 

It just seems to me that whoever have their gun out first wins. A smart criminal that is going to ambush someone in an alley should have their gun out before their target knows that they are there.

Not necessarily..but starting to pull out a weapon while being robbed is highly likely to escalate the violence of the situation. It's just plain stupid.


 

No, it isn't. Mass restriction or buybacks aren't options in the States, a nation of over 320 million, where the majority of gun crime occurs in metropolitan, designated gun-free areas.

pulled the statistics for you on this

 

though its more majority of crime occurs in metropolitan*


Edited by disastrousmaster, 24 August 2015 - 05:40 PM.

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“The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”― Eddard Stark, A game of thrones

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#25 Peleihno

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 08:41 PM

Is drastically limiting access for civilians an extreme option though?

Yes.

Proper access to firearms for law abiding citizens is a natural right secured by the constitution and a safeguard against tyranny.

It's doable and has been done without unintended side-effects.

Nope.

I don't think you have a full grasp on American gun culture, civil religion, and the constitution (not trying to sound rude here, btw). 

What you seem to be leaning towards is going all Europe on American gun ownership. That's just impossible and illegal, it would also incite civil upheaval. This isn't Europe and doesn't want to be.

You have to stop thinking like a European if you're gonna talk effective gun control in America. I know you mean well, but your lot in America actual fuels the mess that is the gun debate. Hardline, leftist anti-gun types only feed the NRA and other staunch, anti-gun control groups -- strengthens them. I remember a recent Frontline documentary reaffirming this odd relationship. It ruins the dialogue.
 

(And a consitution, like any other law, should be changeable... anyway)

I've already said changes are needed.

However, they must be pragmatic, well reasoned, and constitutionally sound.

We both want similar things, just disagree on how to get there. America will always have more gun crimes than Europe, though it's worth noting that the vast majority of gun crime victims are criminals/former criminals.
 

that wasn't my point. The point i was trying to make was that There are less people with guns now even if the number of guns out there is more.
 
My bad for not being clear.

So you were just stating facts?
 
Never mind then.


Edited by Peleihno, 24 August 2015 - 08:42 PM.

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#26 retroluffy13

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Posted 25 August 2015 - 01:32 PM

as far as im concerned americas gun control policys are almost completely fine the way they are.  dispite what anyone antigun might say, waitlist periods do a lot.  not so much in terms of preventing crime, but in terms of catching the assholes who commit it. its simple.  waitlist periods make it harder for asshole gun nuts who use their rights as complete shields for their wrong doings to claim that sooting someone was an accident.  a heat of the moment type deal.  if the law wasnt made to be this way... murders could go out, buy a gunn that day, drive straight to the intended target, shoot them down, and then claim in court that it was all an accident, that they wer simply expressing their right to buy a gun when trouble just happened to come a knocking...

 

also, indexing people who buy from public vendors keeps crazy people from ammasing a huge arsenal of weapons to do a lot of harm to the population.  at least, legally speaking that is.  if your good and don't go around killing people, your free to amass a huge arsenal of weapons, if your not your not.  nice, simple, easy.

 

if anything the biggest thing we do wrong is the gun show loophole that lets people get a gun any old time they want to as long as they simply know about the trick.  its a huge flaw in our legal system that should be addressed.

 

anyone who needs a gun right this second just to express their right tio do so is either incredibly immiture, and thus probably too immature to be wielding a gun in the first place, or their not a good person


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#27 DarkNemesis

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 09:38 AM

It's events like this that make me wary of statistics without context.

Two journalists shot on live TV.

Crime in general maybe down or going down, but incidents like this seem to be rising.

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#28 waleuska

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:02 AM

It's events like this that make me wary of statistics without context.

Two journalists shot on live TV.

Crime in general maybe down or going down, but incidents like this seem to be rising.

This might be more of the case that the news is reporting more of these incidents.


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#29 tattaslayr

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 01:34 PM

The market is filled with firearms. It's too late for banning them. A ban would be useless in my opinion because everybody would still be able to use, carry and buy guns over there.  


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#30 waleuska

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 01:34 PM

well, primarily I would say the biggest part of a guns defense against other people is that it is a rather large deterrent for others to take action against you. The higher the chance they have of running into an armed person, the less likely they are to try to take action. I mean, its not really the best type of defense in a back alley or something.

The only way for it to be a deterrent if you know the person is armed and is willing to shoot.


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#31 disastrousmaster

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 03:37 PM

The only way for it to be a deterrent if you know the person is armed and is willing to shoot.

the unknown is far more terrifying than the known


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“The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”― Eddard Stark, A game of thrones

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#32 Peleihno

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 05:26 PM

It's events like this that make me wary of statistics without context.

Two journalists shot on live TV.

Crime in general maybe down or going down, but incidents like this seem to be rising.

This is less about gun control and more about the issue of a possible return of black militancy, which is bad for everyone.

Disgusting stuff.

The market is filled with firearms. It's too late for banning them. A ban would be useless in my opinion because everybody would still be able to use, carry and buy guns over there.

A ban would also be unconstitutional tyranny, but yea, that too.

This might be more of the case that the news is reporting more of these incidents.

Perception is reality.

Edited by Peleihno, 26 August 2015 - 05:26 PM.

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#33 waleuska

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 05:26 PM

This is less about gun control and more about the issue of a possible return of black militancy, which is bad for everyone.

Disgusting stuff.
A ban would also be unconstitutional tyranny, but yea, that too.

Not really since most people do not have guns for the purpose of the second amendment. Those black militancy would though.


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#34 Peleihno

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 05:27 PM

Not really since most people do not have guns for the purpose of the second amendment. Those black militancy would though.

What are you talking about?

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#35 waleuska

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 05:41 PM

What are you talking about?

The point of the second amendment is for people to be armed vs the government. For most people in American it is either to protected themselves or hunting.

 

By this logic American can ask or force a gun recall from all people except the ones that are a regulated Militia.


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#36 Peleihno

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 05:43 PM

The point of the second amendment is for people to be armed vs the government. For most people in American it is either to protected themselves or hunting.
 
By this logic American can ask or force a gun recall from all people except the ones that are a regulated Militia.

That's not how it....oh, forget it.

It's the main point, not the only point, it's more complex than that with a multiplicity of applications such as hunting and self defense against private citizens. Though, I'm not sure you care.

I'll leave it at that.

Edited by Peleihno, 26 August 2015 - 05:45 PM.

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#37 waleuska

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 06:03 PM

That's not how it....oh, forget it.

It's the main point, not the only point, it's more complex than that with a multiplicity of applications such as hunting and self defense against private citizens. Though, I'm not sure you care.

I'll leave it at that.

No, explain your point. I am not pig head and not able to listen to reason. Every time the gun debate comes up they always quote the second amendment.

 

How does this

 

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

make it so that every American is able to buy a gun?


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#38 Peleihno

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 06:13 PM

No, explain your point. I am not pig head and not able to listen to reason. Every time the gun debate comes up they always quote the second amendment.
 
How does this
make it so that every American is able to buy a gun?

I'm not arguing with nonsense.

I can't even believe you think that post of yours is to be taken seriously, an interpretation that would get laughed out of any court in this nation.

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#39 waleuska

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 06:34 PM

I'm not arguing with nonsense.

I can't even believe you think that post of yours is to be taken seriously, an interpretation that would get laughed out of any court in this nation.

What interpretation? A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

The point of the second amendment is the militia.


 

https://www.law.corn.../07-290.ZS.html

 

haha i see how people think. They love ignoring the militia part.


Edited by waleuska, 26 August 2015 - 06:34 PM.

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#40 DarkNemesis

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 06:44 PM

This might be more of the case that the news is reporting more of these incidents.

 

I don't think they had much of a choice seeing as it happened on live TV.


 

 

 


This is less about gun control and more about the issue of a possible return of black militancy, which is bad for everyone.

 

No. This is just a nut. Plain and simple. He had real issues and tried to use Charleston as an excuse. This guy was as, if not more, psychologically broken than the white kid.

 

How this has anything to do with black militancy is beyond me. How black militancy is bad for everyone is something that should be explained. Not magically understood.
 

 

Disgusting stuff.

 

The killing of two innocent people for no damn reason? Yes. It absolutely is. But how the hell did this guy with these mental issues get cleared to buy a gun in the first place?


Edited by DarkNemesis, 26 August 2015 - 06:44 PM.

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