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#41 Passingby

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 09:53 AM

@Oben

so was it to create destabilization inside france, by creating an islamist faction inside it?

makes sense if they plan to later use that islamist faction to further create confusion

 

but it looks unlikely they may have any success in creating a big enouth islamist faction to create real destabilization, since even if they managed to recruit the entirely of the current islamic ethnic population they would still have a pretty smal group

 

ethnic groups: French 92%; Arab/North African 4%; German 2%; Breton 1%; Catalan 1%

http://www.populstat...ope/franceg.htm

 

unless they and banking once again on the demographic growth to take over after some decades...

 

 

As the recent attack(s) have displayed, they don't even need to recruit past than a hundred. A few people can do this much damage already. If they continue killing people at this effective rate, then they are winning.

 

You have to realize that they are martyrs. Your miniscule analyzation of these irrelvant stats is meaningless.


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#42 Zeando

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:09 AM

An act of war doesn't have to always result into a decisive victory. Think of it as a skirmish. Numerically, to be able to kill hundreds of your enemy is a form of victory anyway, especially considering the amount of manpower that were effectively used to net that result. Their war is not that of direct confrontation, as these acts of terrorism is when they are able to hurt their enemies the most. It's vulnerable spot for an otherwise unbeatable enemy. 

 

Morale is also key. Think of those attackers that died by blowing themselves up. It's an act of martyrdom. It's the ultimate sacrifice. They are heroes. This can only help further their cause, and to be honest, it is a decisive victory. How the rest of the world reacts afterwards would only determine how lasting the effects of their skirmish would be.

 

dunno, i find that reasoning a bit vague and abstract

they may think whatever they want, glorify themselfes and all that, but in a conflict what matters are the concrete results

in this case i can see only what oben pointed out, this was part of a bigger plan to destabilize france on the long run, by itself the attack didn't make any relevant difference, nor any long lasting damage on a bigger scale, if anything making themselfes look more like "the bag guys"

 

"An act of war doesn't have to always result into a decisive victory."

yep it doesn't have to, but an act of war which doesn't bring back results is a failure

was this a failure or not?

 

"Numerically, to be able to kill hundreds of your enemy is a form of victory anyway"

dunno, i would feel pretty ashamed to call attacking defenceless people a victory :/  (and hope the people thinking it was a "victory" aren't too many...expecially among the ones this attack was trying to please according to you)


 

As the recent attack(s) have displayed, they don't even need to recruit past than a hundred. A few people can do this much damage already. If they continue killing people at this effective rate, then they are winning.

they would need to do these sort of attack on a daily basis to have an effect on the population



#43 Passingby

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:14 AM

Hundreds of people dead is a concrete result. When was the last time have you heard that many casualties in a single encounter in the recent history? Not even people in the front lines can boast such effective ratios.

Once you get the concept of martyrdom, then would you realize how significant it is to be able to kill people (civilians or not) and inspire reaction, which only help further your cause. It only plants more disdain, ensuring the survival of extremists in the future. That is a VICTORY.
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#44 Zeando

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:14 AM

just to insist on previous similar attacks, was the attack of january which killed 12 people in the satirical magazine a failure? or did it achieve something on the long run up to today?



#45 Tale

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:17 AM

I don't understand the difference between Muslims and Islamists.

 

Islamists are a subset of Muslims. Muslims as a group are as varied as any other religious group. Islamists (which are also varied) describes those Muslims which are antipathetic to non-Islamic influences of any sort (especially Western ones) and practice a very conservative form of Islam which dictates all aspects of life and society. (Or you can check the wikipedia page).



#46 Baka-Dynasty

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:23 AM

dunno, i find that reasoning a bit vague and abstract

they may think whatever they want, glorify themselfes and all that, but in a conflict what matters are the concrete results

in this case i can see only what oben pointed out, this was part of a bigger plan to destabilize france on the long run, by itself the attack didn't make any relevant difference, nor any long lasting damage on a bigger scale, if anything making themselfes look more like "the bag guys"

 

 

How about the oposite then ? Its no big news that the french peeps wanted harder regulation on immigration and toward minorities. Or that the whole euro system is going down. This act made major difference . First off it takes people attention off the real issues at hand. Secondly it helps the gouvernement putting stricer regulation on religious group. Doesnt take a genius to realise who this whole thing benefits the most. Side note they found a syrien passeport on the body of one of the kamikaze. He probably tought that he needed hes paper to pass the gates of hell.

 

 

"An act of war doesn't have to always result into a decisive victory."

yep it doesn't have to, but an act of war which doesn't bring back results is a failure

was this a failure or not?

 

"Numerically, to be able to kill hundreds of your enemy is a form of victory anyway"

dunno, i would feel pretty ashamed to call attacking defenceless people a victory :/  (and hope the people thinking it was a "victory" aren't too many...expecially among the ones this attack was trying to please according to you)


 

they would need to do these sort of attack on a daily basis to have an effect on the population

 

Not true either, They instaured a climate of fear. That is going to stay for a while.

 

Stahp removing dem comments pls i dint get to read them


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#47 Morfeus

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:25 AM


Haha, yeah, no Western Infulences, all this fully armed "moderate oposition" with no actual leadership suddenly popping in each country, with support of US, and later with even military support from US and european countries, don't make me laugh. 
 
"The war in Syria" too didn't fall upon us from outer space. 
 
All this chaos, thousands of people losing their lifes, homes, families, economical degeneration and insecurity of all those countries, eventualy even grounds for IS to apear... you call that anyones "SPRING"?
 
I'm sorry if I sound all agressive about that, but what I see in the events of 13.11.15 is aftermath of the long lasting policy of some of the western countries in case of African/Arabian countries.

 

... Which I why said begun without Western interference and not "happened", "occurred" or "transpired". The revolutions started out unorganized and without any support other than the moderate, revolutionary and opposing citizens in each country and their respective parties.

 

And with Western interference, I obviously mean diplomatic and military methods - the Social Media and the culture of the West definitely inspired a lot of the uprisings. The military efforts made by the West were only made a good amount of time after the rebellions had established themselves.

 

Spring was the term that was used during the many revolutions and rebellions - I didn't choose it, I only use it, because people will then know, what I'm talking about.

 

And well, I forgive your "aggressiveness".  :^_^: We're all a bit mad,when something like this happens, as I mentioned in my post. I am as well... 


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#48 Oben

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:26 AM

just to insist on previous similar attacks, was the attack of january which killed 12 people in the satirical magazine a failure? or did it achieve something on the long run up to today?


Al-Qaeda (who did Charlie Hebdo) and Islamic State have different tactics for terrorism. Al-Qaeda tries to hit symbolic targets (special persons, buildings etc.), while Islamic State just kills indiscriminately as much as possible. Since Qaeda thus achieved their goal in January, it'd be hard to classify as a failure.

#49 Zeando

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:38 AM

@Baka-Dynasty

was trying to avoid the conspiracy side of it :u

 

"How about the oposite then ? Its no big news that the french peeps wanted harder regulation on immigration and toward minorities. Or that the whole euro system is going down. This act made major difference . First off it takes people attention off the real issues at hand. Secondly it helps the gouvernement putting stricer regulation on religious group. Doesnt take a genius to realise who this whole thing benefits the most. Side note they found a syrien passeport on the body of one of the kamikaze. He probably tought that he needed hes paper to pass the gates of hell."

but agree whatever they may want to get to, needs for them to make themselfes look more "dangerous" and "threatening"

 

 

@Oben

"Al-Qaeda (who did Charlie Hebdo) and Islamic State have different tactics for terrorism. Al-Qaeda tries to hit symbolic targets (special persons, buildings etc.), while Islamic State just kills indiscriminately as much as possible. Since Qaeda thus achieved their goal in January, it'd be hard to classify as a failure."

ah ok, different groups, different reasons

 

still what i did mean for failure was, did satirical comics totally stopped after the attack of january? if they did, that was a success

or are people still scared/shocked/paranoid about what happened in january?

(i may just be cynical, but i had forgot it happened, before this new attack remembered me of it again)


Edited by Zeando, 14 November 2015 - 10:43 AM.


#50 pyrogenic

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:43 AM

@Morfeus and the term 'spring' that media popularised is totally out of place to me.

Regarding influences you yourself mention the armed forces that established themselves during those revolutions - before others military help came. So where did they get they armaments from? How come a force that is a threat to a homearmy pops out of nowhere in a strictly controlled such as Lybia? Revolutionaires seemed to only lack airforce. The social media don't come with armaments.

 

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#51 Baka-Dynasty

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 10:50 AM

@Baka-Dynasty

was trying to avoid the conspiracy side of it :u

 

"How about the oposite then ? Its no big news that the french peeps wanted harder regulation on immigration and toward minorities. Or that the whole euro system is going down. This act made major difference . First off it takes people attention off the real issues at hand. Secondly it helps the gouvernement putting stricer regulation on religious group. Doesnt take a genius to realise who this whole thing benefits the most. Side note they found a syrien passeport on the body of one of the kamikaze. He probably tought that he needed hes paper to pass the gates of hell."

but agree whatever they may want to get to, needs for them to make themselfes look more "dangerous" and "threatening"

 

 

Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth. Conspiracy is a big word. Things are what they are. If i put myself in a terrorist position. i dont see what i would gain from such a vain terrorist attack. Unless that attack as an isolated accident. Logically speaking if i wanted to pass on a message and kill lots of people at the same time i would strike during the new year party near the eiffel tower. I doubt the terrorist organisations are dumb otherwise they would all already be dead.


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#52 DarkNemesis

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 11:11 AM


"An act of war doesn't have to always result into a decisive victory."

yep it doesn't have to, but an act of war which doesn't bring back results is a failure

was this a failure or not?

 

They're on the international stage, pulled off an attack under the nose of the government, killed over a hundred people, and used everyone's panic to blame the refugees without a second thought.

 

In terms of terrorism, this can be considered a victory.


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#53 Zeando

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 11:12 AM

@Oben

"failure" or not, which is trite and not so important, it's interesting to look back at the attack of january's aftermath to try to guess how many of those things will repeat this time

https://en.wikipedia...oting#Aftermath

 

will there be an other public demonstrations of national unity with milions of people in the streets?

putin will again ride of the muslim hate for his gain? (not sure if it really happened, news was on blooberg)

some other police officier investigating on the attacks will commit suicide again?

will a lot of anti-muslim incidents follow like the last time?

will muslims in africa burn some churches for random and unrelated reasons again right after the anti-muslim incidents?


Edited by Zeando, 14 November 2015 - 11:17 AM.


#54 DarkNemesis

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 11:17 AM

@waleuska, @ Miss.J - Seems that the terrorists, at least some of them, were french nationals. -> http://news.yahoo.co...-151907714.html


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#55 Miss.J

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:22 PM

I'll use this for all of you

 

- Terrorists and Muslims are two different topics. 

- You trust humans or not, not believers. 

- Those Muslim refugees are obliged to leave their country because of Terrorists. 

- We (at least France does) already attack those countries. 

 

 _____________________________________________

 

For all of you again: this thread has been cleaned. You may continue discussion, but keep off racism and don't ever associate again Muslims with terrorists. Call them by their name: extremists, Islamists, etc. 

WoW. Why call it a debate forum when this much censorship goes on for the opposing viewpoint? 

 

Terrorism and Islam are different but there's a clear distinction that the terrorists believe in Allah and the Muslim philosophy.

The question is how many of the Muslims that exist in Europe and America are terrorists, which is obvious to the problem since the ones yesterday were people who lived in France

There are Muslim AND Christian refugees, but most of them are migrants, abled bodied men who have no actual fear, they just want to look for somewhere better to live. Not to mention they don't assimilate, they are violent, and they could be potential terrorists.

France doesn't do jack to deal with this problem. If they did, there wouldn't be attacks like today. So far, only Russia and Assad has done anything significant towards the terrorist groups.

 

Of course, when all the evidence and links I post to counter your point is censored, what's the point ? Why not just have this thread deleted in it's entirety, since obviously everyone agrees terrorism is bad. 


 

@waleuska, @ Miss.J - Seems that the terrorists, at least some of them, were french nationals. -> http://news.yahoo.co...-151907714.html

French, known to have Islamist ties: source

 

 One of the gunmen who died after attacking a Paris concert hall on Friday had French nationality and was known to have ties with Islamist militants, a source close to the inquiry into a series of deadly attacks in Paris said on Saturday.

 

Earlier, sources close to the investigation said that a Syrian passport had been found near the body of one of the suicide bombers who blew himself up near a Paris soccer stadium in one of the other attacks.

 

I don't even want to post anything not directly quoted in fear of getting banned or censored for posting logical arguments that go against the "rules" 


Edited by Miss.J, 14 November 2015 - 12:20 PM.

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#56 soccerislife

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:26 PM

I seriously can't belive people commenting in that article are agreeing to abolishing Islam.
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#57 DarkNemesis

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:28 PM

@ Miss.J - I'm not arguing that they didn't have Islamists or Jihadist ties. The argument originally was whether the terrorists were French nationals or refugees. The information coming in has been French nationals and legal immigrants. Nothing about refugees.


Edited by DarkNemesis, 14 November 2015 - 12:28 PM.

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#58 Narubi

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:34 PM

I seriously can't believe people commenting in that article are agreeing to abolishing Islam.

 

Certain amounts of people, love to hate. 

Give them any means of an outlet, and they'll vent loads of non-stop hate.

 

Just a fact of life.  :meh:


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#59 soccerislife

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:34 PM

@ Miss.J With the thought process you seem to have right now, it strikes me as the same thought process that the U.S had when it created those Japanese Internment Camps.

Edited by soccerislife, 14 November 2015 - 12:35 PM.

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#60 Miss.J

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:39 PM

@ Miss.J - I'm not arguing that they didn't have Islamists or Jihadist ties. The argument originally was whether the terrorists were French nationals or refugees. The information coming in has been French nationals and legal immigrants. Nothing about refugees.

a SYRIAN passport?.....


 

@ Miss.J With the thought process you seem to have right now, it strikes me as the same thought process that the U.S had when it created those Japanese Internment Camps.

True, but what are you going to do when ISIS literlaly recruits members through twitter and social media? What are you going to do when people like the Boston Marathon bomber, the marine shooter, just to name a few, live right here in the  states? 


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