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Psychology's role in society


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#1 retroluffy13

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 11:56 AM

That's a joke. Why don't you try going to a support group for soldiers with PTSD and tell them that they actually don't need professional therapy, all they need to do is read some Plato and they'll be just perfect? While you're at it, you should make sure to inform a clinically depressed person that all they need is to realize that Aristotle said that happiness depends on ourselves and that'll suddenly make them decide not to kill themselves.

http://www.apa.org/a...imary-care.aspx
http://www.dbsallian...tics_depression
http://healthresearc...ide-statistics/
http://www.veteransa...statistics.html

And that's just me bringing up two major disorders that can't be fixed by magic philosophy.

But please, continue to handwave the applications and claim that all people need to do is a bunch of "self discovery", completely ignoring that people with these conditions are in absolutely no state of mind to begin any sort of grandiose spiritual/mental journey that you seem to be preaching as the answer to anything.


This is the best passage to indicate you frankly have no clue what you're talking about. In loads of cases, due to the nature of their condition, the person in question already has a deepseated denial or motivation to hide or deny their condition at all cost due to the social stigmas of being labeled as "mentally ill," even(or especially) to close friends and family.

Eating disorders and depression both fall under these lines, among others.

http://www.pbs.org/p...help/faq.html#9
https://www.psycholo...l-health-stigma


Yeah, except that the people who need therapy to find peace aren't of rationally sound mind.

Also, if I was suffering from mental illness and saw this line comparing my struggles and issues to a dog shitting in your shoes, I would be fucking disgusted.

@mods, while this discussion is a bit off topic, I do think it has relevance to the topic at hand considering the role of psychology in LGBT discussions even if it isn't directly about those issues at the moment. Either that, or can we have a separate thread for discussing the role of psychology in society if you'd rather keep everything separate?


 
http://www.apa.org/a...imary-care.aspx
http://www.dbsallian...tics_depression
http://healthresearc...ide-statistics/
http://www.veteransa...statistics.html

whats with all the statistics about death? what do they say at all against what im saying? you cant just post random statistics about mental health issues and expect them to fit your agenda.

none o this says anything about whether a single ne of these people had philosophical teachings. ust tha a lot of people like to ill themselves over their mental disorders and whatnot.

also for the record I fail to see how the suicidal thoughts of someone terminally ill has anything to do with mental health issues.

as for the link on social stigma: this too can be accounted for as ignorance, because anyone who truly practices the teachings im talking about understands enough to knw that nobody is exactly the same and that everybody's problem needs a different solution.

I see nothing anywhere that backs up your claim that my claim is one of ignorance. just a bunch of meaningless statistics about death meant to scare people into believing that someone somewhere has concocted the perfect way to live your life that will grant you infinite happiness and lead you to live a ninty year old life. its simply not true. if someone had such a secret they'd e so happy they'd have shared it with the entire world for free. but with the proper teachings you can create your own solution that works for you and allows you to live within society by your own standards and not anyone else's, whch at the end of the day is whats most important.

an your post about anorexia only illustrates my point. anorexia is a disease born out of social convention and can only be found in people who don't have the proper mental training I'm talking about. an anorexic persons only drive towards their eating disorder is that of the eyes of society. and again. if these people had the teachings I talk about, they would understand enough to not let the hollow echos of societies expectations dictate the way they chose to abuse they're body.


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#2 Tale

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 12:51 PM

@retroluffy13

 

the truth of the matter is, most psycologsts don't tell you anything you cant learn yourself, they're really ust there to sit there and hhelp yu work out wats bothering ou inside. but in my opinon, people would be better off working on the deeper core problems of their biengs then trying to trace someone personality quircks back to some part of hem that's "unlike the oth

 

 

 

why is psychology evil? because in order for things like therapy or counseling or reverse psychology or manipulation and all that other shit to even work on someone in the first place, they have to still be stuck in the allegorical cave Plato talks about.

 

Speaking as a person who has sought psychological aid for crippling self-esteem, shyness and anxiety issues, I can tell you that it's not always possible to help yourself. There can be a variety of reasons for this, including not realizing one actually has a problem, not knowing how to address it and/or not having the motivation to do it.

 

Also, in my experience (which is narrow, involving only counselling over a very specific problem), psychologists do encourage critical thinking and questioning of standards and images imposed in general by society or in particular by individuals. And even if you are a critical thinker and have read enough about your problem that your therapist can't tell you anything 'new' about it, it can be extremely helpful to talk things over with someone who understands your problem and has experience dealing with it. 


Edited by Tale, 27 April 2016 - 12:53 PM.

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#3 retroluffy13

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 01:27 PM

@retroluffy13
 
 
 
Speaking as a person who has sought psychological aid for crippling self-esteem, shyness and anxiety issues, I can tell you that it's not always possible to help yourself. There can be a variety of reasons for this, including not realizing one actually has a problem, not knowing how to address it and/or not having the motivation to do it.
 
Also, in my experience (which is narrow, involving only counselling over a very specific problem), psychologists do encourage critical thinking and questioning of standards and images imposed in general by society or in particular by individuals. And even if you are a critical thinker and have read enough about your problem that your therapist can't tell you anything 'new' about it, it can be extremely helpful to talk things over with someone who understands your problem and has experience dealing with it.

see now that maes more sense. stuff like depression or crippling self essteme issues are places I agree therepy could probably help. especially when people are open enough to understand they're own issues. but all I ever said was: psycollogy is good for the study of the mind and also helping people who cant fit ito society" that kind of stuff is exactly what im talking about. self drive. self esteeme. as well as people who just cant rationalize for shit. these are the people I feel absolutely benfiet from psycology. but a lot of these other psychological probles could be better fought with ideology is all I'm saying. a man with an anger management issue wouldntt have anger management issues if you teach him enough to know his energy would be better spent searching for a solution to what angers him then to waste on it. teach him to talk out his problems instead of bottling them up and waitig to explode out of frustration. to know his limits so that he doesn't overexert hs mind with the stress of everyone around him.

if these teachings had been a fundimental part of his education to begin with he would have never had the anger issues to begin with. that's all I'm trying to get at here. the best way to solve the worlds issues is to educate them on the issues prehand and not to wait until years later when the quirks people have begin to negatively effect them.

they say that like the majority of mental problems are all behavioral and social. problems we get from the way we were raised, the lessons we were taught, ect. so if the lessons we were taught are causing such bullshit behavioral disorders, isn't it time we started teaching our kids differenty? from the ground up as opposed to a quick patch when issues begin to arise?

Edited by retroluffy13, 27 April 2016 - 02:25 PM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

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when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.

#4 Damanos

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 04:51 PM

whats with all the statistics about death? what do they say at all against what im saying? you cant just post random statistics about mental health issues and expect them to fit your agenda.

 

It's to show that things are a serious issue

 

none o this says anything about whether a single ne of these people had philosophical teachings. ust tha a lot of people like to ill themselves over their mental disorders and whatnot.

 

Maybe you should first try to provide any evidence whatsoever to your claims that philosophy teachings will do anything?  Anything at all that isn't just you stroking your own ego about being "enlightened" and "out of the cave"? 

 

as for the link on social stigma: this too can be accounted for as ignorance, because anyone who truly practices the teachings im talking about understands enough to knw that nobody is exactly the same and that everybody's problem needs a different solution.

 

Again, all you're doing is idealizing some sort of master race of enlightened beings that you think anybody who reads philosophy automatically turns into, which is ridiculous. 

 

I see nothing anywhere that backs up your claim that my claim is one of ignorance. just a bunch of meaningless statistics about death meant to scare people into believing that someone somewhere has concocted the perfect way to live your life that will grant you infinite happiness and lead you to live a ninty year old life. its simply not true. if someone had such a secret they'd e so happy they'd have shared it with the entire world for free. but with the proper teachings you can create your own solution that works for you and allows you to live within society by your own standards and not anyone else's, whch at the end of the day is whats most important.

 

So you literally don't care about people suffering from crippling depression, PTSD, or suicidal ideation, that's pretty awesome to know.

 

And once again, the point eludes you.

 

an your post about anorexia only illustrates my point. anorexia is a disease born out of social convention and can only be found in people who don't have the proper mental training I'm talking about. an anorexic persons only drive towards their eating disorder is that of the eyes of society. and again. if these people had the teachings I talk about, they would understand enough to not let the hollow echos of societies expectations dictate the way they chose to abuse they're body.

 

Just like the rest of your "arguments" on this subject, all you can do is yell MUH PHILOSOPHY, THEY WOULD BE FIXED IF THEY HAD MUH PHILOSOPHY with absolutely no support.  Man, this thread is off to a fantastic start. 


Edited by Damanos, 27 April 2016 - 04:52 PM.

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#5 retroluffy13

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 07:06 PM

It's to show that things are a serious issue
 
 
Maybe you should first try to provide any evidence whatsoever to your claims that philosophy teachings will do anything?  Anything at all that isn't just you stroking your own ego about being "enlightened" and "out of the cave"? 
 
 
Again, all you're doing is idealizing some sort of master race of enlightened beings that you think anybody who reads philosophy automatically turns into, which is ridiculous. 
 
 
So you literally don't care about people suffering from crippling depression, PTSD, or suicidal ideation, that's pretty awesome to know.
 
And once again, the point eludes you.
 
 
Just like the rest of your "arguments" on this subject, all you can do is yell MUH PHILOSOPHY, THEY WOULD BE FIXED IF THEY HAD MUH PHILOSOPHY with absolutely no support.  Man, this thread is off to a fantastic start.

yes I agree. peoples. mental instability is an important and serious issue. which is why we must be completely critical in our approach to fixing such issues. so if i said i had a better way of heping people, why exactly would that offend you and why would you get so upset about it?

if a mental disorder is simply the belief in an irrational belief, they by teachning people the fundimentals of what it eans to reason can keep them grounded in times of disbelief. example: people who suffer from anxiety disorders where they start making up stories in their head about what people think and create horrific fantasies about the future they have to live through over and over and over again could be taught about the rock that hit a bird on a tree in the middle of the night.

you see, on a cold foggy night, you rushed outside when you heard a large bang close to your huse. you look around and see nothing right away. all of a sudden, you hear it again, and so you look over towards a tree ust outside of your yard. you study the tree deeply until you spot a brad hanging off of the only branch on the tree. then, that's when you see a rock fly at the bird and scare it away. satisfired, you return inside and look out the window,, only to see that what you hd thought had been a tree was really a lamp post. now shining bright with luminescing light. you go outside to see if you can spot the bird, now that the lights are on, only to see multiple bats zoom through the crisp night air. just when you think you couldn't have been more wrong,, you turn to go back inside and slip on a slippery rubber ball that had landed in your yard. had this been what got thrown at the bat?

the moral of the story is: we, as people, assume a lot of things. and a lot of those things we assume turn out to be just flat out untrue, even when we were dead certain that we "saw what we saw". which is why you should never assume anything of anybody, because even though setimes we create tese antastic fabes in ur heads that cripple us from getting out there and living, most of the time your worst fears aren't going to come true every time yu step out your front door. if someone with anxiety understands this, then in times of crisis, they could at least always have a firm center to fall back on and bring them back from they're spiral.

its also been my experience that a big problem people with anxieties have is they have a hard time listening to others as well as properly communicating they're fears. they cant sum up what they feel nside and so they go off and off on stories, trying to get you to understand what it is they're trying to say. people like this need to learn to communicate better. either through speech or linguistics, whatever, and then they wont have t get so anxious when they try to explain themselves and rationalize what it is they're trying to say.

onto anorexia. people with anorexia's eating disorder stems from the fact that they feel so insecure about they're own opnion of themselves that the feel they need to hurt themselves in order to meet scocieties expectations of how they should look. so teach them about the evils of society. ne of the reasons they find what ther people hae t say so appeaing is because its glamrous to them, so to speak, to be popula. so show them how women are starving in Africa and would kill to have that food they waste. teach them about the powerful women who worked through the civil rights movement to ensure that they're dads couldn't ust beat them until they ate they're food like a good girl. give them better idols to idolize and maybe they wont have to cling to Americas next top model like it's the greatest fucking show in the world. ad while your at it, boost they're ego up a bit and make them feel good abut who they are outside of they're body. eliminate they're need to fit in by giving them the tools to help them make theyre own voices heard.

i could go on but you get my point. a lot of the big problems we have now adays can be avoided by better educating people about the problems they face in general. knowledge is power and without it, well, we feel powerless. but by improving ourselves on fundamental levels and taking the time to always better improve our vision of what the natural universe is, the less we have to fear about succumbing to irrationality.

through mental discipline and the right teachings, i believe people are capable of overcoming most any mental health obsicle they might face.

however, there is a huge glaring acception to everything ive said thus far. willpower. issues that have to do wit depression, self esteem, irrationality, and everything ive made mention as an exception thus far, these are mental disorders that hae to do with a persons very drve. they're desires. this much is fundamental in helping yourself. wthout the willpower to help yourself, philosophy cant help you. and that's where psycology and therepy really can help people. things tha have to do with willpower are trick. sometimes its ust a block you have to get over. sometimes, there are biological factors at work that inhibit you. in such ccases, such peope need help and should not be ashamed to admit it.

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#6 Misty

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 10:05 PM


through mental discipline and the right teachings, i believe people are capable of overcoming most any mental health obsicle they might face.

 

So like the chemical imbalance part is going to be cured by a little more Aristotle?


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#7 retroluffy13

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 10:11 PM

So like the chemical imbalance part is going to be cured by a little more Aristotle?

 

that's not psycology though its biology.  cause and effect  chemical imbalances can be proven.

 

but yes artistole would be the one who cured that considering all science is the continuation of artistilian logic.


Edited by retroluffy13, 27 April 2016 - 10:13 PM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

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when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.

#8 Ganderath

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 11:14 PM

but yes artistole would be the one who cured that considering all science is the continuation of artistilian logic.

 

You are aware that other notions of logic exist, right? That Aristotle's ideas are a basic building block, right? That attributing all science to him is a massive over-simplification and you know it? 

 

Also, why the fuck are you using Aristotle? You started with Plato's Allegory of the Cave, of which Aristotle's empiricism would find fault with as Plato's notion of a philosopher king is a bit horseshit. Empiricism's response to you would be that psychological treatment has existed in many cultures over the years and has done a better job with treatment than prescribing reading Phaedo without even taking into account that philosophy itself has an actual science behind it, Plato's ideas are interesting, but seeing as how we've had "Give her the Dick" Descartes or Kant, Plato isn't the sole guide(the Apology of Socrates is a better read anyway and has more to do with critical thinking).

 

Fuck it, Herodotus makes note that the Spartans had a form of psychological counseling for their soldiers who suffered from PTSD, this is not a new thing, nor was it solved by Athenian philosophers. You know who was one of the first big psychologists? Good ol' Freud, for writing about the trauma in WW1 suffered by soldiers from societies who had been philosophically rich for years. Tolkien's love of classical writings didn't stop him from expressing his own shell shock through his stories. Philosophy is an exploration of values(and other shit, but values and existence are the two basics) that is very different from question why people act in certain manners or how the mind operates. The Allegory of the Cave deals with the nature of reality, Freud deals with the processes of the mind, both have since been abandoned and are outdated, but the point is still there.

 

 

onto anorexia. people with anorexia's eating disorder stems from the fact that they feel so insecure about they're own opnion of themselves that the feel they need to hurt themselves in order to meet scocieties expectations of how they should look. 

 

"

Psychological factors

Research into Anorexia Nervosa and Bulimia Nervosa specifically, has identified a number of personality traits that may be present before, during, and after recovery from an eating disorder.

These include:

Specific additional personality traits may be associated with each type of eating disorder. It is also important to include that prolonged starvation induces change in cognition, behaviour, and interpersonal characteristics. It can therefore be difficult to discern the psychological causes from the psychological effects of eating disorders."

 

Weeeeeeeeeeeeew

 

Turns out, these things tend not to have cut and dry causes. Moreover, telling some to stop being concerned with their weight is fucking absurd, if the solution was that simple, you wouldn't have this issue. Unless you're going to argue that multi-million dollar campaigns are less effective then playing loops of Darfur footage, the idea that simply telling someone who is in a condition where they do not have complete control over themselves to control themselves is ludicrous.


Edited by Ganderath, 27 April 2016 - 11:14 PM.

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#9 Fulmine

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 11:56 PM

Education is good for preventing the stuffs. But when you're already hurt...that's not enough, depends on how badly hurt you are. It's like having a healthy life style prevents a lot of things but when you already are immersed in horrible living habits that make your body and mind a really really really bad mess then some medicines or whatever need to be used to stop the immediate damage first. Simply living according to schedule and whatnot again doesn't cure you.

 

Also anecdotal and stories are cool and all but without solid knowledge about science...all that talk amounts to exactly what the people in your story do: thinking based on impressions and beliefs that only lead to troll-yourself headcanon whereas what appears as terribly counter-intuitive at first is actually what's scientifically logically sound.


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#10 ZCOverload

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 12:01 AM

And @retroluffy13, do us a favor, and don't write massive walls of text. Use the selective quote function or something and address/respond to each point individually in your replies. It just makes it easier and more organized.

 

On-topic: Modern philosophy has been falling apart as a practice BECAUSE it explores questions that really don't need to be answered any more. Ancient philosophers tried to make waves in the general populace with their ideals and got nowhere. I took my obligatory philosophy class last year and my professor outright said this. Philosophy as a practice is only practical for an interest, and is certainly not a replacement for introspection and therapy. Ask anyone who is or has been depressed about the effect therapy has had on them. Ask anyone who is or has been depressed about the effect exploring philosophy has had on them. I guarantee you the answers will be different.

 

Fulmine basically summed up my point pretty well. When you're depressed, no amount of introspection is going to help. You're only going to find reasons to make yourself feel worse.


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#11 Damanos

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 12:43 AM

yes I agree. peoples. mental instability is an important and serious issue. which is why we must be completely critical in our approach to fixing such issues. so if i said i had a better way of heping people, why exactly would that offend you and why would you get so upset about it?

 

Because finding better ways of helping people with it is what a large part of psychology is, the sheer fact that you know this little of what you're ranting about boggles the mind. 

 

if a mental disorder is simply the belief in an irrational belief,

 

Let me stop you right there, again, you have no clue what you're talking about.  Mental disorders can be caused by various things.  Brain chemistry, aging in the case of Dementia and the like, trauma, developmental disorder, genetics(Autism for example, though there are multiple factors going on there), and others.

 

There are disorders caused by pervasive and persistent irrational thoughts.  And there are therapies directed at these that actually do involve methods similar to some of the things you've described.  That's already a part of psychology.  But not everything works that way.  Far from it.  

 

they by teachning people the fundimentals of what it eans to reason can keep them grounded in times of disbelief. example: people who suffer from anxiety disorders where they start making up stories in their head about what people think and create horrific fantasies about the future they have to live through over and over and over again could be taught about the rock that hit a bird on a tree in the middle of the night.

you see, on a cold foggy night, you rushed outside when you heard a large bang close to your huse. you look around and see nothing right away. all of a sudden, you hear it again, and so you look over towards a tree ust outside of your yard. you study the tree deeply until you spot a brad hanging off of the only branch on the tree. then, that's when you see a rock fly at the bird and scare it away. satisfired, you return inside and look out the window,, only to see that what you hd thought had been a tree was really a lamp post. now shining bright with luminescing light. you go outside to see if you can spot the bird, now that the lights are on, only to see multiple bats zoom through the crisp night air. just when you think you couldn't have been more wrong,, you turn to go back inside and slip on a slippery rubber ball that had landed in your yard. had this been what got thrown at the bat?

the moral of the story is: we, as people, assume a lot of things. and a lot of those things we assume turn out to be just flat out untrue, even when we were dead certain that we "saw what we saw". which is why you should never assume anything of anybody, because even though setimes we create tese antastic fabes in ur heads that cripple us from getting out there and living, most of the time your worst fears aren't going to come true every time yu step out your front door. if someone with anxiety understands this, then in times of crisis, they could at least always have a firm center to fall back on and bring them back from they're spiral.

 

That's great and I'm sure you put a lot of thought into this, but I asked for actual proof beyond your opinion. 

 

its also been my experience that a big problem people with anxieties have is they have a hard time listening to others as well as properly communicating they're fears. they cant sum up what they feel nside and so they go off and off on stories, trying to get you to understand what it is they're trying to say. people like this need to learn to communicate better. either through speech or linguistics, whatever, and then they wont have t get so anxious when they try to explain themselves and rationalize what it is they're trying to say.

 

Again, your level of generalization is ridiculous.  You're applying "your experience" to everybody.  It doesn't work that way in the slightest for many others.  Anxiety disorders vary a lot.  

 

http://www.nimh.nih....ers/index.shtml

 

through mental discipline and the right teachings, i believe people are capable of overcoming most any mental health obsicle they might face.
however, there is a huge glaring acception to everything ive said thus far. willpower. issues that have to do wit depression, self esteem, irrationality, and everything ive made mention as an exception thus far, these are mental disorders that hae to do with a persons very drve. they're desires. this much is fundamental in helping yourself. wthout the willpower to help yourself, philosophy cant help you. and that's where psycology and therepy really can help people. things tha have to do with willpower are trick. sometimes its ust a block you have to get over. sometimes, there are biological factors at work that inhibit you. in such ccases, such peope need help and should not be ashamed to admit it.

 

I mean, you really could have saved us both a lot of time by instead of writing all that text before this, just coming clean and saying "I have no objective evidence to my claims, but I'm still going to insist that I'm right and that you can logic your way through any mental issue unless you're a pussy with no willpower". 
 

I really find it hard to write a suitable reply to all of this besides just "no".  How am I supposed to argue with pure hearsay/opinion?  You're just telling me how you think things work, which is the exact opposite of what I know to be true based on actual studying and research.

 

 

that's not psycology though its biology.  cause and effect  chemical imbalances can be proven.

 

No, that's psychobiology. 

 

It's almost like there are subdivisions to a very broad and expansive subject that you continue to prove your knowledge barely scratches the surface of. 


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#12 Fulmine

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:08 AM


my intentin is to imply that people in therepy are better off studying philosophy over seeing a psycologist if they really want to work n the core of they're being.

the truth of the matter is, most psycologsts don't tell you anything you cant learn yourself, they're really ust there to sit there and hhelp yu work out wats bothering ou inside but in my opinon, people would be better off working on the deeper core problems of their biengs then trying to trace someone personality quircks back to some part of hem that's "unlike the others

Why do you think psychology is unable to reach the core?

 

It's not like you can't learn other subjects yourself, either. As long as you're not stupid, with the vast material resource available on Internet and in library nowadays, anyone can equip themselves with a fair share of knowledge. But why do people go to doctors when they are sick or go to engineers to have their machine fixed? Clearly the professionals have something more to tell you. 

And then not everyone has the right aptitude or time to immerse in philosophy, much less finding the exact bit that would help them in that forest. If you say ''then they need someone to guide them'' then I'm afraid that's the psychologist. After all philosophy does exist in psychology.


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