814 replies to this topic

[Oben]

Lol no.
 
Voting is a right, not a duty. 
 
For starters, choosing to abstain from a vote is a form of voting on its own. Vote abstention is a fairly common option in many governmental bodies at all levels. If an individual isn't compelled to choose between any of the choices presented to him/her, perfectly plausible for him/her to opt out on the basis that s/he is unsure or feels better off with others making the decision. 
 
We live in a free society before we do a democracy.
 
Secondly, there is no absolute moral imperative in voting. To assert so, you must be able to prove that collective decision-making is universally moral. Which, of course, it is not. Consider that many options on ballots manifest as government predations on individual freedoms and rights. Voters, for example, have the right to vote on what to do with other individual's wealth. 
 
This is the sort of ugliness the whole "voting is a civic duty" mantra runs right into like a fucking freight train.

 

@Oben, Western democratic values come foremost from the principle that man retains the right to choose for himself what he wishes to do or say, so long as he does not infringe on other's rights to do the same.
 
To argue anyway against that is to concede that this particular liberty is worth putting in jeopardy.

 

I... don't think you understood my point. I agree with everything you wrote here. If you don't want to vote, no law should force you. But you should still do it because I really think you have an obligation to society. I wouldn't call it an imperative but rather a strong suggestion. Like bathing (dumb example). You don't exactly have to, but you really should for your own and everyone else's well-being. It is important and the whole thing only works if it is legitimized by enough people - and again, I am not just talking about the government itself, it's also the opposition that needs legitimization. What is so outlandish about that thought?

 

 

Totally not condescending or arrogant at all.

Yeah I know, it was intended to be, it was 1:30 am and I was really pissed and I tried to be mean without being outright insulting, I admit that. And now that I read ryuzaki's new post, I'm pissed of again, so I won't reply to it atm and I'm not particularly sorry either. Maybe later.

Edited by Oben, 19 October 2016 - 12:45 AM.

[waleuska]

http://www.cnn.com/2...-lawsuit-trump/

 

Wow.

[retroluffy13]

Youre not saying anything new here. Your grandparents didnt vote becaue it was their duty to vote, but because they had a right to it. Their duty was to vote for who they believed in. Youre tarnishing their suffering under fascism by claiming that people have a duty to vote, even if they dont believe in any of the candidates. But you werent really thinking of them when you made your post, youre just mentioning them now for leverage. How sad, really.

 

 

 

 

Im not sure what you wanted to convey here, but the thing that youre arguing agaisnt is a right made possible only throught democracy. All choices are equally valid as long as the voter is confident about them, and that is what your argument lacks, the confidence aspect. Otherwise whats different from voting in an online poll about your favorite pornstar than voting from president? Well, even then, the pornstar vote would have more meaning than the latter because it at least was something you choose to do, not something you were obligated or had a duty to do.

 

 

 

What do you mean, "work for a change"? If you mean by actually putting in effort to make a change, I can proudly tell you that youre dead fucking wrong that I havent, you giant hypocrite. I wouldnt fault you for not knowing shit about Brazil, but I guess I need to enlighten you about our current political climate: You see, over the course of maybe the last two years, there have been lots and lots of civil protests agaisnt the government, 10 of which I attended, and 3 of which I actively helped organize groups to attend them. Maybe im not like your grandparents, and Im thankful that I didnt go throught all the shit they went, but to assume that I didnt do anything without even much as an insight into my life is a fucking joke.

you have good things to bring to this discussion.  but the way you say things incites people to take it the wrong way and rise to challenge you.

[DarkNemesis]

Last Debate is tonight. Any expectations or things you hope/want the candidates to do? For example, actually speak on policy and not on scandal.

[retroluffy13]

Clinton should play up the angle where we take back the senate and make Bernie the head of the house of representitives.

[/2aw]

....soooooo another informative video I found about healthcare. By the same folks as the last video on taxes. The usual disclaimers. I've been quite out of it as of late so I don't really have anything to add to discussion. Just being informative. 

[azer_moli]

@Phenomiracle Oben is right, voting is a legal right, but it's also a civic duty. Democracy is based on voting, so if you don't vote, you don't act as a citizen. 

It'd be nice if everyone could remember that, it would prevent extreme right-winged people for getting so many votes because the abstention rates have set a new record. So, indeed, not voting is allowing Trump to have a much bigger chance to win, or at least not to lose in a way it doesn't give hope to extremists all over the world... (though I do understand it feels like choosing between the plague and the cholera...)

 

@Oben and @ryuzaki07  

I won't edit your posts nor hide them, but keep it more civil, the both of you. 

[waleuska]

Lets make bets that someone would run against the president in 4 years, the same party. Like the D's run someone vs Hilary in 2020, or trump with the R's.

[Narubi]

Last Debate is tonight. Any expectations or things you hope/want the candidates to do? For example, actually speak on policy and not on scandal.

 

It'd be nice if they speak on policy, rather than scandal and mud slinging.

 

But it'll probably just be scandal and mud slinging all the way.  

[Ganderath]

[RamenRenegade]

YOU'RE THE PUPPET!!!

Best line of the night!

[Blue22]

Dropping this here again:

 

http://www.politifac...on-presidentia/

 

Enjoy the debate

[RamenRenegade]

"While I was in the situation room monitoring the raid on Bin Laden, he was hosting celebrity apprentice!"

Another great quote!

[Blue22]

I can't believe he, of all people, just tried to give a lecture on the illegality of inciting violence? If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is :/

[waleuska]

everyone is pivoting.

[RamenRenegade]

Hmm, she's struggling to explain her foundation. Not good.

[retroluffy13]

you guys see the way she just flat out ignored alligations that she helped conspire to create violence at trump campiegns?  this entire election is just horrible.

[Blue22]

She either didn't say anything because she had nothing to say or she just doesn't wanna give as much credence to conspiracy theories as Donald does. Either way, he still has no room to talk to when it comes to encouraging violence. Especially at his rallies. I'd ask why he'd even bring that up when he's just as guilty of stuff like that, but then I remembered he often forgets what he says almost immediately after saying it.

Edited by Blue22, 19 October 2016 - 09:46 PM.

[Sasuke K]

My country is a mess. Talking about abortion and other things. And its just shows Trump is just power hungry and has more care for the rich than the middle class than the poor. He's every manipulative, persuasive and self-opinionated. Hilary is more supportive of woman, which I can understand that. Just like other's mention. She having a hard explaining her foundation.

 

Understand that one of these two candidates if to win has an 80% chance of starting World War three. i won't be point fingers 

Edited by Sasuke K, 19 October 2016 - 09:49 PM.

[RamenRenegade]

Trump did well for the first 30 to 40 minutes. But the wheels fell off when he was asked if he would accept results if he lost.

Clinton struggled with her foundation. Not good at all. That was her biggest flub. That whole topic was bad for her.

I am surprised at her personality tonight. She actually made a couple jokes. What?!

Chris Wallace did a great job. Hit both of them with hard questions.

BTW, did anyone notice that Trump said he didn't apologize to Melania about the women even though she said he did 2 nights ago?

Edited by RamenRenegade, 19 October 2016 - 09:58 PM.