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[Discussion] One Piece Chapter 851


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#281 captain kidd

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:23 PM

I see your reading comprehension skills aren't as great as I thought it was. I guess it could be difficult to piece the connection between two contrasting sequence for someone below that level. Lastly, sure we can talk about before entering Capone's body. http://www3.mangafre...e_812_14#gohere

 

You've yet to understand the Vito's ability, who's grabbing Nami and Chopper's head. But please do tell how you like to make assumptions. Let's not forget how he lit up Capone's cigar with his hands btw.

 

Lastly, that's some quality hyperbole. Care to explain why you think wikia isn't credible? Did you take a literature class in 2005 and you've now made that your life motto?

 

While you're at it go ahead and try to edit the wikia page with your opinion about the Shiro Shiro No Mi.

 

Good debate, top notch.

 

connection? didnt you yourself point out the difference? one is an environment completely controlled by capone the other is a forest where capone himself said he needs to be quiet or else the villagers would attack him and he doesn't want that.

 

 

hey if you want to argue AFTER sanji was in capone's body, then sanji did save nami and chopper so you are already wrong, my arguement is he could do that same thing only before entering capone's body.

 

 

what ever vito's ability is he wasn't able to use it to stop sanji from saving his crew when they are inside capone's body so why would it help more when they are outside his body.........

 

as for the wikia, I have been around a little while, i have seen the wikia be wrong a great many times presenting speculation as fact. I used to be on the wikia all the time reading over and over again about my favorite characters, but over the years i noticed some of my pages were changing with new information, I had accepted the old information as fact because it was on the wikia, when i look back the wikia had no evidence or links to support some of their claims.

 

so now as the much smarter and more educated OP fan then i was back then, i don't rely on other fans to tell me what i read my self...........

 

Wow, why did you get upset about something like that? Wikis everywhere are not a valuable reference, since obviusly you can edit them and write anything you want.

 

he was embarrassed when he noticed he was arguing something completely wrong, adults can laugh at them selves, kids like him get angry and start the personal insults, you see it all the time here.

 

i mean you have to put yourself in his shoes, he told me sanji couldn't save his crew from a situation where sanji actually saved his crew........... that is funny, it is like if i were to tell you there is no way luffy could of saved robin from EL, we all know not only he could, but he did, same with sanji


 

Both have been done in my original post.

 

Lastly, everyone has been arguing that "OP Wiki is not credible", yet where is the reason. If the reason is there please prove it. This is the basics of any argument. You make a statement, you show the logic in motion. Show me the moment where OP Wiki becomes no longer credible.

 

The pages are version controlled so even if a user were to parody or spoof the page it would still be restored. Lastly, the user ends up getting IP banned. Please prove this instance wrong.

 

 

You cannot simply expect the opposing party to understand the argument because "CHEESE IS BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH". Okay great statement. Where's the reasoning and proof? Please do the same for OP Wiki,

 

go to the wikia to get a link.

 

if you forget what chapter it was ace made his debut go to the wikia they will tell you. then post the chapter link here.

 

 

if you want someone to tell you what to think about OP, well don't bother debating THEIR ideas with me.....


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#282 smokingfrog

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:50 AM

Any chance of an early release this week?

#283 PieSauruS

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:09 PM

connection? didnt you yourself point out the difference? one is an environment completely controlled by capone the other is a forest where capone himself said he needs to be quiet or else the villagers would attack him and he doesn't want that.


hey if you want to argue AFTER sanji was in capone's body, then sanji did save nami and chopper so you are already wrong, my arguement is he could do that same thing only before entering capone's body.


what ever vito's ability is he wasn't able to use it to stop sanji from saving his crew when they are inside capone's body so why would it help more when they are outside his body.........

as for the wikia, I have been around a little while, i have seen the wikia be wrong a great many times presenting speculation as fact. I used to be on the wikia all the time reading over and over again about my favorite characters, but over the years i noticed some of my pages were changing with new information, I had accepted the old information as fact because it was on the wikia, when i look back the wikia had no evidence or links to support some of their claims.

so now as the much smarter and more educated OP fan then i was back then, i don't rely on other fans to tell me what i read my self...........



he was embarrassed when he noticed he was arguing something completely wrong, adults can laugh at them selves, kids like him get angry and start the personal insults, you see it all the time here.

i mean you have to put yourself in his shoes, he told me sanji couldn't save his crew from a situation where sanji actually saved his crew........... that is funny, it is like if i were to tell you there is no way luffy could of saved robin from EL, we all know not only he could, but he did, same with sanji 

go to the wikia to get a link.

if you forget what chapter it was ace made his debut go to the wikia they will tell you. then post the chapter link here.


if you want someone to tell you what to think about OP, well don't bother debating THEIR ideas with me.....

Literally refraining from answering this...but I have three things to say. I'm going to list it in bullet points so even you can understand them.

1) Take your time reading and analyzing the post. You've yet to present a coherent argument as to why Capone's devil fruit is weak and why Sanji failed to save his crew from entering Capone's body. "But he has done so in the past"... Is a terrible argument. The situations of fighting a group of fodder versus that of a group of fodder, a side character, and one of the worst generation's captain in a hostage situation are nothing alike; however, let's just say the situations are similar for the sake of your argument. Your other argument about this being a fictional world contradicts your statement about consistency. It's a fictional world there is no consistency. Logic. tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif

2) I believe you trying to frame me as the emotional debater is called "self-reflecting". Your inability to understand my post is just brutal honesty. Instead of licking your wounds, you could just try to brush up on your reading. There are books at the library. Mangas are not considered sophisticated material FYI.

 

 

3) Your last point is a non sequitur. Please tell me why OP Wiki is invalid. Show the proof.


Edited by PieSauruS, 11 January 2017 - 12:33 PM.


#284 captain kidd

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:34 PM

Literally refraining from answering this...but I have three things to say. I'm going to list it in bullet points so even you can understand them.

1) Take your time reading and analyzing the post. You've yet to present a coherent argument as to why Capone's devil fruit is weak and why Sanji failed to save his crew from entering Capone's body. "But he has done so in the past"... Is a terrible argument. The situations are nothing alike and if they were your argument about this being a fictional world contradicts your statement. It contradicts because this argument literally means anything is fair game.
2) I believe you trying to frame me as the emotional debater is called "self-reflecting". Your inability to understand my post is just brutal honesty. Instead of locking your wounds, how about you improve on your reading comprehension?
3) Your last point is a non sequitur. Please tell me why OP Wiki is invalid. Show the proof.


1- have you not read anything I have written? I have said this many many many times. Capone's DF is weak because it depends entirely on the strength of.... the guns/ cannons being fired. Guns and cannons in OP are weak. Thus his DF is dependent on weak items. Thus the DF is weak. Get it?
Why can Sanji save his crew? He has done it in the past. And later on the next chapter he did it from a much tougher situation.

2- hahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahaha have I insulted you? I have kept it civil, you on the other hand have not, that is all I will say and you can say what you want.

3- I have said it above........ the links from the op wikia are good get the chapters. If not the wikia is nothing more then a collection of opinions if there is no link to back it up.

Here is an example of how bad the wikia is- go to the pudding page. Before I even scroll down there are two errors on it.
1- saying "due to pudding's intentions she is a main antagonist" the fan base is still split on what her intentions even are how on earth could the wikia possibly know them.
2- "pudding is a young woman"
Oh really? When was pudding's age mentioned? Never? Right never.... she has a young appearance but she isn't confirmed to be young.....
3-bonuse- because I loved the "abilities and power" section the most when I was younger I decided to give that a look. Literally the first sentence is wrong "pudding has some degree of fighting skills as she managed to injure and overpower rejiu"
That is so wrong it isn't even funny, we don't know who did that to rejiu we don't know what did that to rejiu, we don't know if rejiu was over powered or poisoned or if rejiu even fought back. Pudding could of been not involved in the process in any way and rejiu was taken to puddings room for a memory wipe. We know pudding put a memory of a soldier shooting rejiu with a gun in her mind so even if we assume pudding was the one that shot rejiu that isn't over powering her.

So yes. I clicked on the first link I saw and without even searching I found 3 opinions. The wikia is a tool for remembering links, not for quoting..... (unless of course you are quoting it to prove how bad it is to quote it)
 
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#285 PieSauruS

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:03 PM

1- have you not read anything I have written? I have said this many many many times. Capone's DF is weak because it depends entirely on the strength of.... the guns/ cannons being fired. Guns and cannons in OP are weak. Thus his DF is dependent on weak items. Thus the DF is weak. Get it?
Why can Sanji save his crew? He has done it in the past. And later on the next chapter he did it from a much tougher situation.

2- hahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahaha have I insulted you? I have kept it civil, you on the other hand have not, that is all I will say and you can say what you want.

3- I have said it above........ the links from the op wikia are good get the chapters. If not the wikia is nothing more then a collection of opinions if there is no link to back it up.

Here is an example of how bad the wikia is- go to the pudding page. Before I even scroll down there are two errors on it.
1- saying "due to pudding's intentions she is a main antagonist" the fan base is still split on what her intentions even are how on earth could the wikia possibly know them.
2- "pudding is a young woman"
Oh really? When was pudding's age mentioned? Never? Right never.... she has a young appearance but she isn't confirmed to be young.....
3-bonuse- because I loved the "abilities and power" section the most when I was younger I decided to give that a look. Literally the first sentence is wrong "pudding has some degree of fighting skills as she managed to injure and overpower rejiu"
That is so wrong it isn't even funny, we don't know who did that to rejiu we don't know what did that to rejiu, we don't know if rejiu was over powered or poisoned or if rejiu even fought back. Pudding could of been not involved in the process in any way and rejiu was taken to puddings room for a memory wipe. We know pudding put a memory of a soldier shooting rejiu with a gun in her mind so even if we assume pudding was the one that shot rejiu that isn't over powering her.

So yes. I clicked on the first link I saw and without even searching I found 3 opinions. The wikia is a tool for remembering links, not for quoting..... (unless of course you are quoting it to prove how bad it is to quote it)

1) I argued that it is not weak and presented you a panel within Capone's body. http://www3.mangafre...One_Piece_813_7

You've yet to fully understand Capone's DF ability and yet you're making many assumptions.

 

2) Constructive feedback is given and you end up replying with self-reflection. There is always room for improvement for everyone.

 

3) I feel like you've just shown me the limits of your ability to understand any reading material within this context. The proof is in the pudding.

  *) There is a difference between main and major. "Due to her intentions, she is a major antagonist of the Totto Land Arc." She has a major role within this arc. She is considered a major antagonist.

  *) Are you really trying to make the claim that because one adjective within that page, which has been assumed by the general consensus, and has yet to be disproved by the canon material now engender invalidation for all of OP Wiki's page?

  *) How else would you word her ability to restrain Rejiu? She fought Reiju and restrained her to a chair. There is some degree to her fighting just like Usopp fought Luffy. There is some degree to Usoop being able to fight.

 

http://www3.mangafre...ce_851_4#gohere

 

You argue that assumptions are wrong but yet you're making assumptions that it could've been someone else that would've injured Reiju without any further evidence. The logical approach to this is to take the material as it is: Reiju is being restrained by Pudding. Pudding flaunts her weapon and threatens to shoot her again with the same weapon. Pudding overpowered Reiju.

 

All three points are within the grey but that does not invalidate the source itself. Please show an incorrect example. Incorrect != correct != undetermined


Edited by PieSauruS, 11 January 2017 - 01:07 PM.


#286 captain kidd

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:15 PM

1) I argued that it is not weak and presented you a panel within Capone's body. http://www3.mangafre...One_Piece_813_7
You've yet to fully understand Capone's DF ability and yet you're making many assumptions.

2) Constructive feedback is given and you end up replying with self-reflection. There is always room for improvement for everyone.

3) I feel like you've just shown me the limits of your ability to understand any reading material within this context. The proof is in the pudding.
*) There is a difference between main and major. "Due to her intentions, she is a major antagonist of the Totto Land Arc." She has a major role within this arc. She is considered a major antagonist.
*) Are you really trying to make the claim that because one adjective within that page, which has been assumed by the general consensus, and has yet to be disproved by the canon material now engender invalidation for all of OP Wiki's page?
*) How else would you word her ability to restrain Rejiu? She fought Reiju and restrained her to a chair. There is some degree to her fighting just like Usopp fought Luffy. There is some degree to Usoop being able to fight.

http://www3.mangafre...ce_851_4#gohere

You argue that assumptions are wrong but yet you're making assumptions that it could've been someone else that would've injured Reiju without any further evidence. The logical approach to this is to take the material as it is: Reiju is being restrained by Pudding. Pudding overpowered Reiju.

All three points are within the grey but that does not invalidate the source itself. Please show an incorrect example. Incorrect != correct != undetermined

1- and if I had the time I would provide you with a pannel of Sanji nearly burning down Capone with a single spark........ your idea is every time Capone fights he needs to get his opponent inside his incredibly flammable body?

2- no self reflection here....

3- ok so if something is not proven or disproven...... and it is presented as fact....... what does that make it?

Here is an example-
I am the history channel and my next show is "intelligent aliens, they are real and watching us"
No one can prove or disprove intelligent aliens exist. Yet I am presenting it as fact. Therefore I am wrong.

Those 3 examples are things that are not true. Yes I am speculating when I say "maybe pudding didn't shoot rejiu" but they are speculating equally as much when they say "pudding did shoot rejiu"

Presenting unproven evidence as fact is wrong. And I found 3 instances of the wikia doing that in 30 seconds of looking at one page..... ya they are unreliable.


Either-
- presenting unproven information as fact = incorrect
- me saying aliens killed JFK isn't incorrect (anything you say against that is just speculation)


Now you can tell me
"But captain, the wikia isn't presenting that information as fact"
Then why did you quote it?!

Edited by captain kidd, 11 January 2017 - 01:17 PM.

 
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#287 Saya

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:15 PM

You argue that assumptions are wrong but yet you're making assumptions that it could've been someone else that would've injured Reiju without any further evidence. The logical approach to this is to take the material as it is: Reiju is being restrained by Pudding. Pudding overpowered Reiju.

That is soo wrong.... I mean there are no proof that she actually overpowered Reiju, it's like assuming when you found a cake on the kitchen table and someone standing near it, assuming that person made it...


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#288 PieSauruS

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:26 PM

1- and if I had the time I would provide you with a pannel of Sanji nearly burning down Capone with a single spark........ your idea is every time Capone fights he needs to get his opponent inside his incredibly flammable body?

2- no self reflection here....

3- ok so if something is not proven or disproven...... and it is presented as fact....... what does that make it?

Here is an example-
I am the history channel and my next show is "intelligent aliens, they are real and watching us"
No one can prove or disprove intelligent aliens exist. Yet I am presenting it as fact. Therefore I am wrong.

Those 3 examples are things that are not true. Yes I am speculating when I say "maybe pudding didn't shoot rejiu" but they are speculating equally as much when they say "pudding did shoot rejiu"

Presenting unproven evidence as fact is wrong. And I found 3 instances of the wikia doing that in 30 seconds of looking at one page..... ya they are unreliable.


Either-
- presenting unproven information as fact = incorrect
- me saying aliens killed JFK isn't incorrect (anything you say against that is just speculation)


Now you can tell me
"But captain, the wikia isn't presenting that information as fact"
Then why did you quote it?!

http://www3.mangafre...ce_813_3#gohere

A weakness of an object or thought does not imply the entirety is weak.

 

That is soo wrong.... I mean there are no proof that she actually overpowered Reiju, it's like assuming when you found a cake on the kitchen table and someone standing near it, assuming that person made it...

 

I believe the better analogy would be: Making the assumption when I found the cake on a kitchen table, next to someone who had a baking apron on and he or she proceeded to ask if I would like another cake.

 

Just like how Pudding flaunted her gun, and provided details on how the weapon had injured Reiju's.
 


Edited by PieSauruS, 11 January 2017 - 01:28 PM.


#289 captain kidd

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:58 PM

http://www3.mangafre...ce_813_3#gohere
A weakness of an object or thought does not imply the entirety is weak.


I believe the better analogy would be: Making the assumption when I found the cake on a kitchen table, next to someone who had a baking apron on and he or she proceeded to ask if I would like another cake.

Just like how Pudding flaunted her gun, and provided details on how the weapon had injured Reiju's.


What?! That was shock anger and legitimate concern Capone expressed as he quickly rushed to stamp out that extremely tiny spark that quickly turned into a huge fire.

That gun could be the standard issue gun everyone in the BM crew has for all you know and of course she knows how it works.

Notice how you still said "making the assumption" it is still assuming unless there is evidence which there isn't.

Also...... shooting someone in the leg =/= over powering them........
 
For example.

When fodder shot WB in the face with a cannon did that fodder "over power" WB?
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#290 Chillman

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 02:08 PM

Pudding herself said she used a powerful gun to shoot her. That's more the gun's strength than anyone else.
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#291 captain kidd

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 02:09 PM

Pudding herself said she used a powerful gun to shoot her. That's more the gun's strength than anyone else.


Exactly. A far cry from the wikia's claim that pudding overpowered rejiu
 
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#292 Grimmjagger

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:01 PM

Pudding is being more popular than BM? Wow, Brook's time to shine was robbed again.

 

 

Who cares about wikia, shouldn't opinions come from the one who's writing....


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"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and evil for evil." -Toki Fujiwara


#293 captain kidd

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:22 PM

Pudding is being more popular than BM? Wow, Brook's time to shine was robbed again.
 

Who cares about wikia, shouldn't opinions come from the one who's writing....


Yet another good point.


at the end of the day anything there without a note is opinion. I have my own.
 
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#294 PieSauruS

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:41 PM

What?! That was shock anger and legitimate concern Capone expressed as he quickly rushed to stamp out that extremely tiny spark that quickly turned into a huge fire.

That gun could be the standard issue gun everyone in the BM crew has for all you know and of course she knows how it works.

Notice how you still said "making the assumption" it is still assuming unless there is evidence which there isn't.

Also...... shooting someone in the leg =/= over powering them........
 
For example.

When fodder shot WB in the face with a cannon did that fodder "over power" WB?

She was restrained and could not move. For someone who has super human strength, she seemed unable to move. Overpowering would be one way to describe that situation.

Pudding herself said she used a powerful gun to shoot her. That's more the gun's strength than anyone else.

 

Skilled enough to yield it and take down someone with super human strength. I wonder if Chopper, Robin, or Vivi would've been able to skilled enough to take down Reiju with it.
 



#295 Saya

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:52 PM

She was restrained and could not move. For someone who has super human strength, she seemed unable to move. Overpowering would be one way to describe that situation.

 

Skilled enough to yield it and take down someone with super human strength. I wonder if Chopper, Robin, or Vivi would've been able to skilled enough to take down Reiju with it.
 

You know when you stand in the doorway and wait to ambush someone with a gun, I am not sure if you would require any "skills" to shoot it.



#296 Chillman

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 04:07 PM


Skilled enough to yield it and take down someone with super human strength. I wonder if Chopper, Robin, or Vivi would've been able to skilled enough to take down Reiju with it.

 

Literally anyone in this series can use a gun. Being a sniper like Usopp or BB's doctor is different.



#297 PieSauruS

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:51 PM

You know when you stand in the doorway and wait to ambush someone with a gun, I am not sure if you would require any "skills" to shoot it.

 

 

Literally anyone in this series can use a gun. Being a sniper like Usopp or BB's doctor is different.

 

Oh okay then it should be rather easy to take down any Vice Captain like that. Understood.

 

Regardless, so now the argument is that there is no skill involved with guns.

 

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Yasopp

http://onepiece.wiki.../wiki/Lucky_Roo

 

Using a gun is half the battle. There is more to it than just shooting.


Edited by PieSauruS, 11 January 2017 - 07:54 PM.


#298 Chillman

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:15 PM


Oh okay then it should be rather easy to take down any Vice Captain like that. Understood.

 

Well, Whitebeard did die to gunfire, on top of other injuries.

 


so now the argument is that there is no skill involved with guns.

 

Wait what? Anyone can use a gun. A powerful gun can take out powerful people. Lots of people with guns can take out powerful people. A skilled gunman can shoot people from far away, do trick shots, and in One Piece, use haki with the bullets.

 

Pudding, a person who so far, only has a devil fruit, claims that she tested out a powerful gun against Reiju. We don't know exactly how Reiju was shot, but unless Pudding shows that she's a skilled gunman, or a haki user, then the most logical conclusion is that she caught Reiju off guard, especially if Reiju doesn't have haki.



#299 PieSauruS

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:58 PM

Well, Whitebeard did die to gunfire, on top of other injuries.

 

 

 

Wait what? Anyone can use a gun. A powerful gun can take out powerful people. Lots of people with guns can take out powerful people. A skilled gunman can shoot people from far away, do trick shots, and in One Piece, use haki with the bullets.

 

Pudding, a person who so far, only has a devil fruit, claims that she tested out a powerful gun against Reiju. We don't know exactly how Reiju was shot, but unless Pudding shows that she's a skilled gunman, or a haki user, then the most logical conclusion is that she caught Reiju off guard, especially if Reiju doesn't have haki.

I think you and I are on the same page, and you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not arguing that guns are not vital. Capone's hostage situation exemplifies that pretty well.

 

The last statement is regarding a counter argument that I was anticipating, which could've revolved around gun's not having any skills. Thus, I mentioned Yasopp and Lucy Roo..

 

 

 

I am arguing that using a gun is half the battle otherwise there wouldn't really be a difference between Yasopp or Lucy Roo from the fodder.

 

 

 

Pudding is being more popular than BM? Wow, Brook's time to shine was robbed again.

 

 

Who cares about wikia, shouldn't opinions come from the one who's writing....

 

This is called a non sequitur. Great point but it adds nothing to the argument. Here is some context as to how OP Wiki became such a hot topic within the last two pages.

 

Someone was arguing that Capone DF's was weak. I linked them a page from a chapter, and a link from OP Wiki. Multiple users were baffled that I linked OP Wiki, implying that OP Wiki isn't credible. My argument is that OP Wiki is credible and I would like someone to disprove that by actually trying their best to find any material that would contradict the One Piece's canon material and invalidate OP Wiki.


Edited by PieSauruS, 11 January 2017 - 09:20 PM.


#300 Madara D Dragon

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 02:40 AM

If using a gun automatically gives Pudding such a big advantage over someone like Reiju (who apparently is strong) tp the extent that we can argue Pudding is weaker than Reiju...
then how a power which lets you you create and control not only guns, but cannons, swords, whatever weapon and even people to hold it.. how is that power so useless? :shrug:

On a side note: @captain kidd , Capone's castle wasn't confirmed as being flamable, so saying it is is like assuming Pudding beat Reiju. A lot of the fans (me included) understood that as a representation of Sanji's anger (the same way he sets himself on fire, the moment he is talked about the vinsmokes that cigarrette bursts in flames). So as you see many interpretations can be done fromthat scene, but Capone's castle being flamable is nowhere proved

"You can't take the King Marco_by_Kanomaru.gifon your first turn!!"

         FoundeothTrafalgaLafan-clu-----> :aww: 





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