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One Piece Chapter 957 Discussion


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#81 superfranky

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Posted 02 October 2019 - 06:40 PM


I am not here saying Kidd is the weakest SN. Just that he us so far out of luffy's league I dont see how he could ever be luffy's wb.... ever.

Also I dont think you want to go down the road of comparing SN. Like I said urgue beat a commander, law would of beat anyone other then DD with that Gemma knife, so assuming dd is commander level that makes two sn who succeeded where Kidd couldn't, also I should point out bonney isnt in the conversation because her fight was pre timeskip.
As for bege..... dude... bege did 10x better then Kidd did. Kidd had an emperor fall into his lap, at his home base. Maybe apoo instantly betrayed him who knows(we know apoo was working for kiadou, but bege was in the literal center of an emperor's land. Bege had the entire force of an emperor in front of him. Ya he had a few more allies then Kidd but he also had... an entire emperor's army in front of him compared to Kidd who had just one emperor to deal with and maybe a trader.
The difference is bege made it out alive and he had time to screw around and try to save the sh crew and distract BM with a cake for some reason. Kidd couldn't make it out. Kidd had nearly every single advantage you can reasonably have to try and escape from an emperor and he couldn't make it out.

But regardless you got me side tracked.

The point is compared to luffy kidd is a disappointment. He has no feats what so ever to put him in league with luffy. Hell law and urgue have more feats to be arguably luffy's equal then kidd does.

Oh and if we forget luffy level feats, the only feat at all Kidd has post time skip is sinking 2 bm ships. Sadly carrot just showed us how easily that is...... a man that can control metal was upstaged by a bunny.

The ONLY way you could say kidd is anywhere near luffy is by saying he was portrayed that way. And that is a horrible arguement. That is like saying crocodile is luffy level because he was portrayed that way in ID.
And the reason portralay is a horrible arguement is oda has dropped that portrayal. Ya luffy and him can both carry large stones... but urgue was the one who best snacks. Urgue.... why? Oda could of just as well made that Kidd who beat snacks and then you would have a leg go stand on and defend kidd with. Oda could of had kidd beat jack (literally everyone has beaten jack at this point) but no he didnt. Oda could of had kidd beat someone on the shanks crew... didnt do that...

You know what oda did do? Instesd of hyping Kidd up. The 1st thing he tells us about kidd is from carbiou "he has a bad reputation. He lost to shanks then lost to bm"
Great.... good job there hyping a character who is supposed to be a big deal... telling us about his failures. And those failures are now made worse because now us fans know why kidd wanted an alliance to fight shanks, because he couldn't get revenge on his own...

Oh that's weird... shanks Beckman and yassop all use metal weapons. Roo also used a pistol. Maybe kidd will become a big deal by killing shanks while luffy beats bb. Then he would finally be on luffy's level.

We legit have no idea if Law is able to beat any of the Yonko or Yonko commanders with Gamma Knife. Luffy had a poison hook go straight through him and water healed him all the way back in Alabasta so even if Law hit someone with it it's not an auto win. Bege was running away from Big Mom when he was not her main target and he didn't have just a few allies he had all of Germa, the Sun Pirates, and Luffy which compared to Killer and unnamed fodder is not comparable. I never got the vibe that Kidd was suppose to WB that always seemed more like Law's future with Kidd more than likely being the Shiki of the three of them. 

 

As far as feats you are right Kidd does not really have any, but I'm not downgrading him for at some unspecified point in time losing to one of Shank's crew (this could have literally happened three months into the timeskip we don't know anything about the incident). I also am not going to downgrade him for not wanting to waste time fighting Big Mom if his target his Shanks. Zoro was against attacking Big Mom when their target is Kaido only Luffy would challenge two emperors at once its not the norm. I would just rather wait and see before deciding that Kidd isn't on Luffy's level. 



#82 captain kidd

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Posted 02 October 2019 - 07:14 PM

I'm not getting into the main argument, but I just wanted to remind you guys (and also kinda ask...?) that WB wasn't said to be on par with Roger AT THE SAME TIME as long as I remember, right?
Wasn't the statement refering to WB in his prime, whereas when Roger was the real deal in the OP world WB was a weaker version of himself at Rocks' crew?


That doesnt sound right. It would be weird to hype WB as the only man to tie with the pirate king if what they really ment is that WB is the only person to ever tie with roger.

I dont think don kreig and hodi will go down in history as men to have beat "the pirate king"

Also that would mean in roger's life he only ever tied once. I think that quote and supposed to be literal. Wb tied with "the pirate king" meaning roger as the pirate king.
 

We legit have no idea if Law is able to beat any of the Yonko or Yonko commanders with Gamma Knife. Luffy had a poison hook go straight through him and water healed him all the way back in Alabasta so even if Law hit someone with it it's not an auto win. Bege was running away from Big Mom when he was not her main target and he didn't have just a few allies he had all of Germa, the Sun Pirates, and Luffy which compared to Killer and unnamed fodder is not comparable. I never got the vibe that Kidd was suppose to WB that always seemed more like Law's future with Kidd more than likely being the Shiki of the three of them.

As far as feats you are right Kidd does not really have any, but I'm not downgrading him for at some unspecified point in time losing to one of Shank's crew (this could have literally happened three months into the timeskip we don't know anything about the incident). I also am not going to downgrade him for not wanting to waste time fighting Big Mom if his target his Shanks. Zoro was against attacking Big Mom when their target is Kaido only Luffy would challenge two emperors at once its not the norm. I would just rather wait and see before deciding that Kidd isn't on Luffy's level.


Like I said. It would of beaten anyone DD's level who didnt have the string fruit.
Wait.... are you really going to tell me crackers would tank Gemma knife? It is supposed to be this super move that ignores durability and attacks someone's internal organs. Sounds like that stupid new halo luffy is learning...

Regardless yes we do. We know at least crackers would die to it.

What...... luffy had what go through him? It wasnt poisoned. The hook wasnt poisoned until the third fight when crocodile removed the gold cover and then he only grazed luffy with it. But if you want to assume everyone has luffy's vs plot armor. Ok fine. Gemma knife cant kill crackers, who said he cant even take a pin prick...

As for bege. What? He wasnt BM's main target? When he was in big daddy mode he wasnt her main target? I really wonder what was then.....

Law? You got the feeling that 200m bounty law was going to be luffy's wb? Kidd had the highest bounty in SA, he had a higher bounty then luffy and law post ts, he was always set up as the stronger between him and law. I never once got the feeling law was the stronger of the two. In fact when law saved luffy's life I thought he would be a non factor in luffy's future.

Ok I am not saying "look this guy lost to shanks or beckman what fodder" I am saying "look, all this guy has done is lose, he is a loser" if oda wants to portray someone as a winner he makes them a winner.
If I said "look at this bad ass character" then I made him lose a bunch.... nonstop... off screen... how would you feel about that supposedly bad ass character?
In real life that is fine, you tell me you have a friend who is bad ass but recently he got beat up a few times, ok fine that stuff happens everyone is down on their luck every once and a while.
But this is a fantasy manga. If you want me to think kidd is a bad ass make him best people up.
Carbiou "oh I dont want to go with kidd he is scary, the dude beat up rockstar and peros for looking at him cross"
If you want me to think a character is a loser.... make him lose alot... that is what oda is doing.

Ever hear that saying "if someone tells you who they are, believe them"? Well if an author portrays a character as a loser, he is a loser.
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#83 PunkHazard

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Posted 02 October 2019 - 11:53 PM

That doesnt sound right. It would be weird to hype WB as the only man to tie with the pirate king if what they really ment is that WB is the only person to ever tie with roger.

I dont think don kreig and hodi will go down in history as men to have beat "the pirate king"

Also that would mean in roger's life he only ever tied once. I think that quote and supposed to be literal. Wb tied with "the pirate king" meaning roger as the pirate king.

I disagree with this actually. Roger only got the title “Pirate King” a couple years before he died right? But WB and Roger were rivals and fighting for decades. And before Roger even got his title he was still a world famous super powerful pirate. So i dont think they necessarily meant WB fought Roger after he got the title of Pirate King. I don’t even think they meant it literally that Roger and WB has only tied once. I think they jus meant that WB at some point tied with and is seen as equal as the strongest man in the world(Roger).

The difference between the don kreig and the hodi thing is those were isolated incidents. I’m sure even Roger has lost before in his youth and etc. But the WB situation was probably more of a constant thing, they were constant rivals battling over the years, constantly challenging and improving each other. They probably tied a few times or even tied in the sense that they both have 2 wins over eachother or etc. All in all I think they jus meant the two are seen as equal Pirate King title or not

#84 capu

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 02:44 AM


Blackbeard will be like "Remember Rocks? Well, he's my pops (or something). Join my crew."
Kaido and Big Mum be like "Yay, sure."

even if the first part would turn out to be true, i highly doubt that that would lead to ur 2nd proposition. 

 


Let's face it, the current Blackbeard crew does not look that threatening. And one way to up the scale after an arc containing 2 yonkou is by making the next one with 3 Yonkou.

to me its the only crew that actually looks threatening so far. Shiryuu, Vasco, Devon and Pizarro are the ones that look threatening to me.

Having 3 yonkou team up would mean 100% instant defeat for WG and Marines. How can u underrate those that 1 hit ko postTS Luffy when 3 admirals combined could not even do so vs preTS Luffy? 

 


About the god valley disappearing after the incident, couldn't it just be because of the insane battle that took place there?

could? yes, but i doubt it, since the way Sengoku made it sound, he knew the place still existed after the battle but was surprised that it turned out later to be gone. I find it more likely that the CD wished to hinder everyone to get any information about said place, a place named god valley, therefore very special place to be, especially if u urself r considered gods. I thnk the Cds had a 2nd base there where they protected or hid something important, which is why the Rocks and roger went there in the first place in order to retrieve whatever it was that was hidden there.

 


I mean after akainu vs aokiji, the weather and typography of the island changed, soafter all these super legends fighting full throttle surely would have devastating effects to the island.. almost taking it to the verge of sinking it...

That would still not explain why the place itself was erased from memory and every map, which is why i think the gorosei rathr choose to obliberate the entire island itslf from everything then to let anyone else know how important it is.

I mean those from the new gen wont sail / specifically search for a place they have no means to get to know off, since nobody of said gen, even knows the place ever existed, and he cant read about it anywhere either only those present would know and there timespans is limited , thus i.e. a hundred years later noone would remember it at all. Since Rocks was also generelly unknown to have been a thing, at least to the newbies.

 


So Roger's bounty was the highest because he conquered the grand line and learned all the secrets the WG didn't want uncovered, and his bounty probably shot up to what it ended at the last year before he died when he conquered the GL on his last voyage and earned him the highest pirate bounty ever. Then all the Yonkou have these high bounties because of their own power, but also the large crews, territory and influence they control. But someone like a Mihawk shouldn't really have a large bounty because he has no crew, territory, or has any interested in going after the WG. So while he might still be just as strong as a Shanks I can't imagine Mihawk's bounty being close to theirs. If they do show the new ex-Shichibukai bounties I feel like there should be a lot of variance. I do hope Buggy's is super high, haha.

I could still see MIhawks bounty to be around 1.75-2-75 mill. Thus exeeding even BB. reasoning is, that while the WG / Marines might place mihawk close to Shanks (thus a yonkou) in strenght (as an individual, not Shanks' overall power because of massiv underlings) they cant really judge BBs true lvl (and might consider BB simply above Marco, thus top commander lvl), since up to now all he did was chill and take over WBs turf after defeating the WB remnants, who where already significantly weakened after loosing at MF. Mihawk being named the SSM alive must  have background. Mihawk also was among those whos attacks did the most at MF. It could  be seen there by everyone just on what high lvl he operates, and that was him pretty much biding his time, being bored and stuff. Moreover his nickname is the clairvoyant, which already speaks values of his CoO and just how hard it is to actually get an attack through to him. 

But i completely agree that his bounty wont be at the same lvl of Shanks,BM, or Kaidou. Still We have to keep in mind that Luffy already has 1.5bill and i am certain (kaiodou 1shotted Luffy after all) that Mihawk could solo the SHs + the entire SHGF as well. Thus he should have a higher bounty than Luffy does.


Edited by capu, 03 October 2019 - 09:39 AM.


#85 D.Hyuga

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 06:09 AM


Ok I am not saying "look this guy lost to shanks or beckman what fodder" I am saying "look, all this guy has done is lose, he is a loser"

 

If SH didn't stay in Paradise for 2 y they would only know of lose.

 

Fact is Luffy got chickened after SA and MF, he understud that he is minor league player.

 

So top deeds go to Law, Kidd and Urogue.

Bonney lost to Yonkou and his full crew. Hawkins had serve or die moment with Kaido, but he was legit for 2y before that.

Others went under Yonko umbrella.



#86 captain kidd

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 10:02 AM

If SH didn't stay in Paradise for 2 y they would only know of lose.

Fact is Luffy got chickened after SA and MF, he understud that he is minor league player.

So top deeds go to Law, Kidd and Urogue.
Bonney lost to Yonkou and his full crew. Hawkins had serve or die moment with Kaido, but he was legit for 2y before that.
Others went under Yonko umbrella.


Ok I know this guy. He is a little guy but he sure is....brave... he wont ever back down from a fight. He is always talking tough getting into fights..... and losing.

Should I give him... what did you say "top deeds"? Or should I call him a cocky little shit?

Are you saying luffy isnt brave enough? Luffy charged head first into ID and MF. Asode from BB luffy has shown the most bravery out of any pirate in OP..... or maybe it is ignorance...

Regardless bravery is only so admirable. There is a point where bravery becomes foolishness. Maybe kidd has passed that point maybe he hasnt. But I am not going to over look his frequent loses because he did one "brave" or foolish, thing.
 

I disagree with this actually. Roger only got the title “Pirate King” a couple years before he died right? But WB and Roger were rivals and fighting for decades. And before Roger even got his title he was still a world famous super powerful pirate. So i dont think they necessarily meant WB fought Roger after he got the title of Pirate King. I don’t even think they meant it literally that Roger and WB has only tied once. I think they jus meant that WB at some point tied with and is seen as equal as the strongest man in the world(Roger).

The difference between the don kreig and the hodi thing is those were isolated incidents. I’m sure even Roger has lost before in his youth and etc. But the WB situation was probably more of a constant thing, they were constant rivals battling over the years, constantly challenging and improving each other. They probably tied a few times or even tied in the sense that they both have 2 wins over eachother or etc. All in all I think they jus meant the two are seen as equal Pirate King title or not


Really? That doesnt sound right to me. I think the quote would be incredibly miss leading if your interpretation is correct.

I mean... oda isnt above making incredibly miss leading statements to scfew with the fans (luffy's crew is dead, pudding acting like she is going to kill herself, all of OP pretending sabo is dead)

But then such a quote would only be for us fans. Because even if you disregard the hodi and don kreig examples. They are technically not wrong. Don kreig will forever be able to say he beat luffy. When luffy becomes the pk he will be able to say "I beat the PK" but everyone would know he is a fraud. Everyone in OP (and the fans) would know don kreig beat east blue rookie luffy. Such a statement would be a waste of breath.

So it was either a waste of breath or oda trying to mislead us. (Or it was true, wb tied with roger as the PK)
If it was a waste of breath, why would they say it? Every marine is sitting there going like "ya.... wb tied with roger... when he was 20"
Or if it was misleading.... why would oda mislead us? The 3 examples I listed above of oda borderline trolling us are all in order to build suspense. Wb needed no suspense, he is the wsm, he was the real deal, why lie like that?

Finally it is believable. Look at their bounties, they are close enough. Luffy tied with 320m bounty moria. That is a frozen bounty so let me assume his bounty is 10m higher. Luffy's was 300m 10% difference between their bounties. Roger is 5.5b wb was 5b that is also a 10% difference, a tie is possible by looking at numbers alone. Luffy has overcome a 10% difference in strength many times. If you count crocodile it was a.... 270% difference. If you count the low level bounties he beat in the east blue... what is that infinite?
(Also if you dont believe my adjusted bounty numbers then remember nightmare luffy hit moria a few times, that is 10m worth of assistance)

And the fact roger was only king for a little is a good reason to believe the quote. Obviously a pirate king fights. The fact only one man was able to ever tie him is because he only had the title for a little.


Oh also, you know what, the battle of ed war was a tie.

Ya so either the statement was an outright lie. Or it ment wb was the only one to tie roger as the pk. Because we know roger as a normal pirate tied with shiki.
 
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#87 Madara D Dragon

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 10:03 AM

That doesnt sound right. It would be weird to hype WB as the only man to tie with the pirate king if what they really ment is that WB is the only person to ever tie with roger.

I dont think don kreig and hodi will go down in history as men to have beat "the pirate king"

Also that would mean in roger's life he only ever tied once. I think that quote and supposed to be literal. Wb tied with "the pirate king" meaning roger as the pirate king.

 

 

There was so funny misunderstanding here, because I actually meant what you said: I don't think they literally tied in a fight, but I thought of it as a more general concept. Closer to "WB having reached a level on pair with Roger", which has been hinted by numerous people saying "he was the man closest to the One Piece". However, what I meant was that perhaps WB got close to Roger's level once Roger was done for and WB reached HIS prime. 

 

So in that case Kidd would still be able to be Luffy's WB even if he was currently weaker. Luffy could die and then Kidd reach his "level".

 

Anyway, funnily enough, after doing some research, I found this to be the scene that is closest to the origin of the "WB was on pair with Roger" concept

 

Spoiler

 

So, according to THIS scene and THIS translation it's about fighting, which breaks both my and your posts apart... 


"You can't take the King Marco_by_Kanomaru.gifon your first turn!!"

         FoundeothTrafalgaLafan-clu-----> :aww: 


#88 PunkHazard

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 11:10 AM

Ok I know this guy. He is a little guy but he sure is....brave... he wont ever back down from a fight. He is always talking tough getting into fights..... and losing.

Should I give him... what did you say "top deeds"? Or should I call him a cocky little shit?

Are you saying luffy isnt brave enough? Luffy charged head first into ID and MF. Asode from BB luffy has shown the most bravery out of any pirate in OP..... or maybe it is ignorance...

Regardless bravery is only so admirable. There is a point where bravery becomes foolishness. Maybe kidd has passed that point maybe he hasnt. But I am not going to over look his frequent loses because he did one "brave" or foolish, thing.
 

Really? That doesnt sound right to me. I think the quote would be incredibly miss leading if your interpretation is correct.

I mean... oda isnt above making incredibly miss leading statements to scfew with the fans (luffy's crew is dead, pudding acting like she is going to kill herself, all of OP pretending sabo is dead)

But then such a quote would only be for us fans. Because even if you disregard the hodi and don kreig examples. They are technically not wrong. Don kreig will forever be able to say he beat luffy. When luffy becomes the pk he will be able to say "I beat the PK" but everyone would know he is a fraud. Everyone in OP (and the fans) would know don kreig beat east blue rookie luffy. Such a statement would be a waste of breath.

So it was either a waste of breath or oda trying to mislead us. (Or it was true, wb tied with roger as the PK)
If it was a waste of breath, why would they say it? Every marine is sitting there going like "ya.... wb tied with roger... when he was 20"
Or if it was misleading.... why would oda mislead us? The 3 examples I listed above of oda borderline trolling us are all in order to build suspense. Wb needed no suspense, he is the wsm, he was the real deal, why lie like that?

Finally it is believable. Look at their bounties, they are close enough. Luffy tied with 320m bounty moria. That is a frozen bounty so let me assume his bounty is 10m higher. Luffy's was 300m 10% difference between their bounties. Roger is 5.5b wb was 5b that is also a 10% difference, a tie is possible by looking at numbers alone. Luffy has overcome a 10% difference in strength many times. If you count crocodile it was a.... 270% difference. If you count the low level bounties he beat in the east blue... what is that infinite?
(Also if you dont believe my adjusted bounty numbers then remember nightmare luffy hit moria a few times, that is 10m worth of assistance)

And the fact roger was only king for a little is a good reason to believe the quote. Obviously a pirate king fights. The fact only one man was able to ever tie him is because he only had the title for a little.


Oh also, you know what, the battle of ed war was a tie.

Ya so either the statement was an outright lie. Or it ment wb was the only one to tie roger as the pk. Because we know roger as a normal pirate tied with shiki.

I see what your saying I really do. But I think your forgetting a couple things. First off its not like Roger suddenly got stronger after he got the title. Roger was already a super strong pirate before his last voyage. And theres a fair chance he was already regarded as the strongest man before his last voyage. And there is an even realer chance that WB and Roger clashed several times in the months and years leading up to Roger becoming PK.

So think about it like this. If WB and Roger fought and tied a week before Roger became the Pirate King, would that make the statement any less true? Would people say their fight didn’t count because Roger wasnt pirate king yet? I dont think so. The point is that WB tied with the man that was Pirate King when he was at his strongest, regardless of the actual time line

And its not about it not being accurate or that Oda lied to us. I think its jus more common sense. We can assume easily that they didnt mean that WB tied with a 20 year old Roger wen he was significantly weaker. Nor am I saying that it was impossible for WB to have fought and tied with Roger wen he was PK. Im jus saying that both are possible and it wouldnt contradict what was said.
 

There was so funny misunderstanding here, because I actually meant what you said: I don't think they literally tied in a fight, but I thought of it as a more general concept. Closer to "WB having reached a level on pair with Roger", which has been hinted by numerous people saying "he was the man closest to the One Piece". However, what I meant was that perhaps WB got close to Roger's level once Roger was done for and WB reached HIS prime.

So in that case Kidd would still be able to be Luffy's WB even if he was currently weaker. Luffy could die and then Kidd reach his "level".

Anyway, funnily enough, after doing some research, I found this to be the scene that is closest to the origin of the "WB was on pair with Roger" concept



So, according to THIS scene and THIS translation it's about fighting, which breaks both my and your posts apart...
wait I cant see the picture




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