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[Discussion] Relationships (Part 4)


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#141 SoulFire

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:26 AM

Well I think it's safe to say that we all want a happy ending, just not something that is hopelessly contrived or feels like a cop-out.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've seen posts expressing a desire for a grimmer resolution that includes the deaths of  the protagonists, etc.

 

I consider the outcome of Naruto to be more an expected than a contrived one. Kishi has been very clear in where he is going and what themes he is addressing throughout his story. And as he has shown with the recent attention to NH, he can make what some may decry as too lacking in development to be believable just that. Planning out a story that has ran for over ten years has got to be difficult and I give Kishi props for holding it together with as few glitches as he has.

 

I like japanese humor in other manga and anime, but in Naruto, it just never seems to fit or be very funny. Stuff like the jokes Obito made and the poop stuff, just make me realize even more how this is aimed at kids and younger teens.

 

I guess the parts of Naruto I enjoy the most are the parts that don't have that positive tone, because I find them the most interesting. I guess because the series I generally like nowadays the most either have a darker tone, or are very light (comedy, romance, drama, etc, don't take themselves too seriously apart from the odd necessary dramatic moments), I can't help but find Naruto displeasing in some way because it's caught somewhere between the two. Or maybe other series' just have a better sense of comedic timing and characters I enjoy. Naruto is eternally destined to be a typical shonen, but showing that it had potential to be something great if it had gone another way. That's not to say I don't, or never will, enjoy shonen anymore, because I do, I've just learnt not to take them seriously and that I'll never be 'wowed' by one.

I don't care for Japanese humor all that much, so I just let it slip past without passing much judgement. Kishi actually likes word play humor, which I find clever, however it doesn't translate all that well at all. As for crude humor, it is so common (and enjoyed) even in the US, that I doubt it is intended only for the very young. I dislike it greatly, but I'm an old curmudgeon. ;)

 

The story itself has a fairly serious undertone in spite of its optomistic undercurrent. The humor is there primarily to break the tension and I accept that, but I do agree that often falls flat--especially when given to Naruto. That said, I continue to enjoy Kishi's work. He creates wonderful characters and has the ability to turn cliches on their ear and to surprise us all (as he did with these last few chapters).


Edited by SoulFire, 05 January 2013 - 01:28 AM.

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#142 Liar

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:49 AM

Either way, go NaruSaku.



#143 Sev

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:35 AM

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've seen posts expressing a desire for a grimmer resolution that includes the deaths of  the protagonists, etc.

 
Of course people would like it, but it's not gonna happen lol.
 

 

 

The story itself has a fairly serious undertone in spite of its optomistic undercurrent. The humor is there primarily to break the tension and I accept that, but I do agree that often falls flat--especially when given to Naruto. That said, I continue to enjoy Kishi's work. He creates wonderful characters and has the ability to turn cliches on their ear and to surprise us all (as he did with these last few chapters).

 

That's what I meant by it's caught in between two worlds; on one hand it's all serious and dark at times, and on the other hand it's still a shonen about friendship and peace and all that. I don't know if i'd ever say 'wonderful' characters, but there are some good ones, though he fails to use most of their potential and his character development is nothing to be wowed by most (I'm careful not to say all, because some characters have been treated well with their development) of the time. I wouldn't go as far to say he turns cliches on their ear either, but hey, if you think so lol. I've honestly forgotten what it means to be surprised in a story so I can't comment on whether he surprised me lately, but I know Phenomiracle predicted months ago Neji would die in the battle, so he didn't surprise everyone ;). I'll give Kishi credit for his world building though, the world and lore he has created is awesome.

 

EDIT: I just thought of a better way to put it (I think). The subject matter is dark, but it's handled in a shonen way with shonen themes used throughout. Maybe that's why I wish it wasn't a shonen, because it has potential to be more mature, and more meaningful in the story it tells and the resolutions.

 

Either way, go NaruSaku.

 
Nice way to subtly steer the thread back on topic there, Liar. :P


Edited by Sev, 05 January 2013 - 04:03 AM.


#144 FallFromGrace

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:08 AM

 I don't know how you can get rougher than Hashirama's 'Wooden Dragon', if you catch my drift.

 

That’s a hard point to argue against... pun not intentional xD Maybe they could share? :P How’s that for a compromise ^^)

 

 I don't know how you can get rougher than Hashirama's 'Wooden Dragon', if you catch my drift. 

 

 

 

 

 

And that's a bad thing, why?  :ph34r:  

 

Besides, it's not like many NH fans ship it because they care for Naruto's well being. They just do it because they love Hinata and identify with the character thus they want her to achieve her dreams. 

 

Actually, I could never identify with Hinata. Our personalities are miles apart. I could very easily identify with Sakura, however. And in doing so, I could never see the appeal of Naruto as a romantic interest. I think it could all go back to ZSword's post about star signs and Aries women. I could never imagine someone like Sakura with someone like Naruto.The dynamic of their personalities would put Naruto in a submissive position if they were to get together, which I see as unproductive for both. Naruto would probably feel emasculated in the long run whereas Sakura would never be able to fully develop her more feminine side, since she will have to assume the dominant role all the time.


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#145 ArSoNiSt JoE

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:13 AM

Why are people referencing Horoscopes? They don't mean anything in the manga why.png


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#146 FallFromGrace

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:21 AM

Why are people referencing Horoscopes? They don't mean anything in the manga http://www.the-coli.com/images/smilies/w...

 

Lol :D I was merely referencing the point that was made about dominant women and men who are intimidated by them in that post ;)


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#147 Kazekage

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:02 AM

Why are people referencing Horoscopes? They don't mean anything in the manga http://www.the-coli.com/images/smilies/w...

 

There are apparently some parallels between the Horoscope reading and the character's themselves.  

 

FallFromGrace just used to it reinforce her points. 


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#148 DeiDreamer

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:42 AM

There are apparently some parallels between the Horoscope reading and the character's themselves.  

 

FallFromGrace just used to it reinforce her points. 

 

Problem with Horoscopes is that theyre designed to apply to practically everyone. Some people fit more than others but people tend to ignore the bits that dont apply to them and concentrate on the few things that do.

 

edit: There's a lot of Japanese humour that's so similar to English humour it's uncanny. A lot of deadpan. I love deadpan.

 

editedit: but a lot of that doesn't seem to come through in Naruto. More so in Haruhi and Gintama.


Edited by DeiDreamer, 05 January 2013 - 08:01 AM.

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#149 disastrousmaster

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:18 AM

i have completely given up on a good ending to naruto and just want to see some good naruhina shots before the end comes >_> if he ever does end it >.<!!!! just kill the thing already kishi

 

 

and D: one manga failed me and didnt provide me with any of those probably many post between this and the meant to be post area


Edited by disastrousmaster, 05 January 2013 - 08:19 AM.

                                                    <p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis....personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg></a></p>

“The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”― Eddard Stark, A game of thrones

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#150 SoulFire

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:20 AM

No matter what one thinks of the validity of horoscopes, they do make a convenient tool when building a character's personality. What I find interesting is how well Kishi's characters fit their western horopscopes when I doubt that Kishi gave this any consideration.



#151 Graeystone

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:34 AM

Well I think it's safe to say that we all want a happy ending, just not something that is hopelessly contrived or feels like a cop-out.

A cop-out is about 98% of finished manga. Its like the word 'closure' doesn't exist with mangakas and publishers. Then there is the publisher's bad habit of axing any series that appears to be sinking.which forces a mangaka to rush an ending if they are fortunate enough to do so.


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#152 ZSword

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:01 AM

Why are people referencing Horoscopes? They don't mean anything in the manga http://www.the-coli.com/images/smilies/w...

Maybe it has nothing to with the manga but....It could have something to do with Kishi's future plans and why certain events occurred.....That or Kishi's way of thinking when it comes to pairings. For example: Why Sakura never tried to return the same kind of affection Naruto constantly gave. Her star sign claims that Aries girls like to have a challenge when it comes to romance and given that Naruto already likes her, it isn't much of a challenge to go for him. Now, a guy that's never shown to love/like any other girl is certainly a challenge for her so she'd likely go for him. However, then there's other factors to consider outside of star signs...like how close Sakura felt to Sasuke and how they really bonded.



Problem with Horoscopes is that theyre designed to apply to practically everyone. Some people fit more than others but people tend to ignore the bits that dont apply to them and concentrate on the few things that do.

Yeah...that's the problem with them :/ I think Kishi probably used certain bits from each Zodiac's general description and then incorporated what he wanted.



#153 DeiDreamer

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:40 AM

Yeah...that's the problem with them :/ I think Kishi probably used certain bits from each Zodiac's general description and then incorporated what he wanted.

 

I think it more likely that he got his character types from the Japanese blood type thing as they do. Or more likely gave them blood types that fit with the character.


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#154 ZSword

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:00 AM

I think it more likely that he got his character types from the Japanese blood type thing as they do. Or more likely gave them blood types that fit with the character.

Japanese blood types? I'll have to look into how exactly they fit in....aren't they just like the rest of the world blood types, like O negative, B Positive, etcetera...?



#155 disastrousmaster

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

http://en.wikipedia....apanese_culture


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                                                    <p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis....personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg></a></p>

“The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”― Eddard Stark, A game of thrones

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#156 ZSword

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:42 AM

Well, if we look at japanese blood type things, then it more or less alludes to the same thing that the Western Horoscopes alluded to. Naruto's blood type is B and according to this site, http://asianlifestyl...acter-analysis/, he's most compatible with B and AB blood types. Hinata's Blood-type is A and Sakura's Blood-type is O. But guess who's Blood-type is AB? :D Karinnnn!!!! ......Anyways, Sakura's most compatible with other O-types and AB types. Guess who's an AB-type? ....Sasuke! Hinata's an A-type and she's most compatible with A and AB types. Can't imagine Hinata with anyone else so....I'll leave that up to anyone who wants to make a new Hinata pairing. So....all in all, the Japanese blood-types haven't really contradicted the Western Horoscopes. In fact, it's less obscure and doesn't shed any light on why they are compatible. I'll look it up further.

 

Using this site (http://www.tofugu.co...types-in-japan/), Type As are timid (Hinata frankly is pretty timid), mild-mannered (She's never insulted anyone and is pretty polite) and earnest (I don't think she's ever been sarcastic or ever lied before). She was anxious at the beginning of Part II, when first seeing Naruto again and trying to form words...but sadly struggling to. Type Bs are wild (Naruto isn't calm, now is he?), free-thinkers (When deciding to place his faith in Jiraiya's book and refusing to believe that just because he wasn't a genius that he would be a failure) and selfish (Naruto going to war regardless of people risking their lives for him). Type Os are outgoing (Sakura's definitely confident in social situations and can express herself if need be), confident (The girl ain't afraid of nothing and nobody) and passionate (Caring about Naruto's burden and what she did to him single-handedly with the PoAL). She definitely has a dominant personality, besting everyone in arguments. Type ABs are very calm and in control (It seems like nothing ever bothered Karin when she was first introduced and Sasuke's always cool and collected) but also aloof (Sasuke and Karin can be quite distant and uncaring at times) and irresponsible (Sasuke not caring how his actions reflect on his friends back in Konoha).


Edited by ZSword, 05 January 2013 - 12:24 PM.

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#157 disastrousmaster

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:55 AM

seriously man what got you on the karin thing?


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“The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”― Eddard Stark, A game of thrones

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#158 ZSword

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:02 PM

I don't know but the more things I find for it, the more my enthusiasm for it grows.



#159 Sauron

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

Well, if we look at japanese blood type things, then it more or less alludes to the same thing that the Western Horoscopes alluded to. Naruto's blood type is B and according to this site, http://asianlifestyl...acter-analysis/, he's most compatible with B and AB blood types. Hinata's Blood-type is A and Sakura's Blood-type is O. But guess who's Blood-type is AB? :D Karinnnn!!!! ......Anyways, Sakura's most compatible with other O-types and AB types. Guess who's an O-type? ....Sasuke! Hinata's an A-type and she's most compatible with A and AB types. Can't imagine Hinata with anyone else so....I'll leave that up to anyone who wants to make a new Hinata pairing. So....all in all, the Japanese blood-types haven't really contradicted the Western Horoscopes. In fact, it's less obscure and doesn't shed any light on why they are compatible. I'll look it up further.

 

Hinata:

 

tumblr_meoedrvjHs1rml2rmo3_250.png


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#160 ZSword

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:10 PM

Hinata:

 

http://25.media.tumblr.com/cd57f5f7c4945...

Lol?! That randomness took me off my guard! XD. Lol....*Wipes a tear*...haha...






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