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[Character] Hiruzen Sarutobi / Third Hokage


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#201 Darthwin

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:57 AM

Oro was planning to destroy Konoha. That was the point of attacking it, and he explicitly said it many times. Isolating the highest commanding officer and decapitating the head of an organization is a viable (and much used) military tactic (ref: Osama bin Ladin). Though yes, killing Hiruzen was one of his objectives. However, even when the operation started, Sasuke was left by himself and wasn't approached by anyone. Sasuke himself was the one who chased after Gaara (and indeed, it was only some time after that Sasuke was tempted to go and seek out Orochimaru). So retrieving Sasuke was not one of the objectives of the battle.

 

Ok, lets list the objectives in this battle:

 

Oro:

Primary objective: 

Destroy Konoha

 

Secondary Objective:

Kill Hiruzen

 

Hiruzen:

 

Primary Objective:

Protect Konoha

 

Secondary Objective:

Neutralize Orochimaru as a threat to Konoha.

 

Oro achieved Secondary Objective, but failed on his Primary. Hiruzen achieved both. So yes, he achieved Victory.



 

You asked for the definition of victory and I showed it as well as Hiruzen achieved it.

 

Oro did not mean to "weaken" Konoha, he mean't to destroy it. Hiruzen meant to protect it and ensure its continued existance. Hence Oro failed and Hiruzen succeded.

 

Oro's arms weren't the only thing lost, but his ninjutsu as well. For a guy who is aiming to master all ninjutsu (hence why he was seeking out the sharingan and immortality) that was not a minor loss indeed. 

 

Indeed with respect to Oro, Hiruzen's death only managed to satisfy his thirst for revenge. However, with respect to Hiruzen, his death sealed 3 kages from Edo, and reduced Oro as a threat to Konoha (he never attacked Konoha during his sealed state). And paved the way for Tsunade to inherit being the Hokage.

 

So yes, Hiruzen achived far more than Oro in that battle.

 

Back then it would be easy to think that was Orochimaru's main goal was the destruction of the leaf, but based on the fact that he simply used the sand for the attack and had a few sound ninja. If his goal was it's destruction he would have certainly placed  more of an effort into it especially after sound fours leader falls ill. I also remember that he mentioned getting things in motion.

 

If anything his objective probably had a lot more to do with sasuke then anything else. Since Sasuke was an Uchiha and the fact that he known information on the tablet. In truth his goal could have very well involved the rinningan in the end rather then simply the sharingan.

 

 

Orochimaru did not exactly have a reason to attack, based on the fact that he had another step towards his goal sasuke uchiha. Especially if we take into account that he has an armies worth of curse mark users at his facilitates. Even without his arms he was still powerful so I don't see how sealing his arms did much other then slow him down from his goal of knowing everything. The sealing of said kages was no advantage since Orochimaru figured his way around that also.

 

So even with said definition the only thing the third did was delay orochimaru and prevent him from destroying the village something that was not high on the to do list. So where is the victory exactly. At best what happened was a minor annoyance for Orochimaru with only the pain of the effects being the biggest problem, and being pressed for time of transferring into a new body.



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#202 ixSheng

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:02 AM

Well delaying the process is an immediate victory. So if 5 years pass and Orochimaru destroys Konoha (hypothetically speaking) then it will still stand Hiruzen won the battle and Orochimaru won the war. So Hiruzen really did win if we're going to label his #1 priority destruction of Konoha which you and I don't personally believe based on his windmill speech and stuff Ibiki said as well but based on our belief that his #1 goal was simply to kill Hiruzen then yes Hiruzen in fact lost. I guess it boils down to how you want to interpret the situation. 


Don't let anything anyone posts distract you from the fact that Krillin was the first of U7 to get knocked out in the ToP :laugh:


#203 Darthwin

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:19 AM

Yeah I could see it coming down to interpretation on what Orochimaru's goal was. Though I suppose if the kages go help it will be an opportunity to give a better display of his abilities.



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#204 dageo18

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:57 AM

Ah I understand that I guess I'm having trouble defining what her prime was because well as she is 50+ she would have lost capabilities in other regions. Her mobility and standard stamina should also be gimped due to age the same way Hiruzens were. She compensated for it by further developing her jutsu and such which is fine. We have seen Tsunade at her prime, agreed.

I'd say depending on who you are and what kind of jutsu you use 40-55 would be kind of prime for a ninja.  Plus, there is a major difference between aging effects present when your 50 and 80.  Its not even a question of aging.  It just startles me you think the third could lose to tsunade 1 v 1 in their primes.  I bet he could take her even if he was like 80, let alone in his prime.  If he truly doesn't have any trump card besides his ape summon weapon then he is still given the demeanor as a very traditional yes, yet genius ninja with knowledge of a mass amount of jutsu, probably why Oro thought more jutsu = more power cause he was jealous of his teachers endless knowledge.  He reigned as a kage during wars, Oonaki is the only other kage that looks like he's made it so far.  That guy seems like he'd be a huge powerhouse if his hip didn't break all the time and the third had to compete with that, let alone the third raikage.  

 

This is the thirds thread, lets give it some respect.  The village first asked Jiriya to be hokage, maybe he could have beaten the hiruzen like Oro. Point is, tsunade is nice an all but she can't beat the ol' man.  He'd see everything coming with his crystal ball.



#205 ixSheng

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:25 AM

I'd say depending on who you are and what kind of jutsu you use 40-55 would be kind of prime for a ninja.  Plus, there is a major difference between aging effects present when your 50 and 80.  Its not even a question of aging.  It just startles me you think the third could lose to tsunade 1 v 1 in their primes.  I bet he could take her even if he was like 80, let alone in his prime.  If he truly doesn't have any trump card besides his ape summon weapon then he is still given the demeanor as a very traditional yes, yet genius ninja with knowledge of a mass amount of jutsu, probably why Oro thought more jutsu = more power cause he was jealous of his teachers endless knowledge.  He reigned as a kage during wars, Oonaki is the only other kage that looks like he's made it so far.  That guy seems like he'd be a huge powerhouse if his hip didn't break all the time and the third had to compete with that, let alone the third raikage.  

 

This is the thirds thread, lets give it some respect.  The village first asked Jiriya to be hokage, maybe he could have beaten the hiruzen like Oro. Point is, tsunade is nice an all but she can't beat the ol' man.  He'd see everything coming with his crystal ball.

We already seemed to debate it to death, I'm finished. You're welcome to your own opinion as silly as it may seem in my eyes.


Don't let anything anyone posts distract you from the fact that Krillin was the first of U7 to get knocked out in the ToP :laugh:


#206 Moosegawd

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 06:52 AM

*looks at Kishi* *Steve Urkel voice* Look what you did....

#207 Sesshoumaru

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:08 AM

Yeah, you guys are right, Hiruzen won the fight, Orochimaru lost, doesn't matter that they fought an all out battle in order to kill each other and Sarutobi died while Orochimaru lived :lol:

 

The overall goal matters not a single bit. What's important is their current goal in the fight: Which means killing each other.

Hiruzen realized he couldn't win, so he used a technique that would allow him to end this fight in a draw, with both of them getting killed.

But Orochimaru was too strong to be taken out by that technique. He survived, he was heavily injured, but he survived. Not so Hiruzen. He succeeded in protecting Konoha, but he lost the fight.


Edited by Sesshoumaru, 03 March 2013 - 10:09 AM.


#208 ninpokaton

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:15 AM

Lost the battle, won the war



#209 Ace1225

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:35 AM

Hiruzen died, Orochimaru lived. Hiruzen achieved his goals, Orochimaru didn't. Hiruzen was past his prime, Orochimaru wasn't. Hiruzen had no advantages, Orochimaru had many. Those are the facts. Make of them what you will. In the end, nothing about that fight diminishes Hiruzen in any way,


I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#210 OP Eyes FTW

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:59 AM

Until proven otherwise:

1.Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Tobirama
4. Hiruzen
5. Tsunade

Tobirama and Minato could easily swap spots, but only after Tobirama strength is actually shown.

Over-Powered Eyes For the Win!


#211 Dead Presidents

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:17 AM

Yeah, you guys are right, Hiruzen won the fight, Orochimaru lost, doesn't matter that they fought an all out battle in order to kill each other and Sarutobi died while Orochimaru lived :lol:

 

The overall goal matters not a single bit. What's important is their current goal in the fight: Which means killing each other.

Hiruzen realized he couldn't win, so he used a technique that would allow him to end this fight in a draw, with both of them getting killed.

But Orochimaru was too strong to be taken out by that technique. He survived, he was heavily injured, but he survived. Not so Hiruzen. He succeeded in protecting Konoha, but he lost the fight.

 

Yea so your opinion...



Until proven otherwise:

1.Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Tobirama
4. Hiruzen
5. Tsunade

Tobirama and Minato could easily swap spots, but only after Tobirama strength is actually shown.

 

Actually based on feats Tobirama and Hiruzen are the weakest. If you factor in hype it gets really complicated. Comparing them now is not fair because of their different situations and the many factors. 



#212 Ace1225

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:26 AM

If you judge a character by feats and skills alone, Tsunade is far from the weakest Hokage. She's actually smack dab in the middle below Hashirama and Minato, but above Tobirama and Hiruzen.


I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha





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