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Gender Identity


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#1 m1hawkgsm

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:15 AM

There's a few issues and topics I'd like to combine in this single thread, and see where it leads. There's been a hell of a big hoopla and debate over the Supreme Court (USA) case on homosexual marriage, and yet there's a slightly different issue that brushes this one but doesn't quite reach it:

Gender Identity. I quote from the website Here:
Spoiler


Furthermore, the site recommends what they call "a gender spectrum" concept:

Spoiler


On a similar note, I'll quote some Wikipedia:
Spoiler


Then there's things like this:
Spoiler

Link here

Finally, I remember, from my Question Time thread not so long ago, that one poster posed a rather interesting and unique question somewhat related to gender, in the form of general relationships:

If, in twenty years from now, the institution of marriage in America is completely separated from involvement by any form of government (local, state and federal government will have no say on defining marriage, which will be left as a private matter), how do you conceive society adapting to such behavioral changes, and state whatever positives and/or negatives you anticipate being generated from it.

EDIT:

I figure this isn't clear enough, so I'll add a few questions:
1. Do you believe Gender identity is a legitimate concept, independent of biological sex?
2. Should gender nonconformists (transsexuals, etc.) be accomodated their change? (Example: should a FtM be forced to use the women's room?, etc.).
3. Basically the last question I quoted speaks for itself.




Cheers~

Edited by m1hawkgsm, 13 April 2013 - 02:59 PM.

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#2 Sev

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:31 AM

The Iranian government's "solution" for homosexuality is to endorse, and fully pay for, sex reassignment surgery. The leader of Iran's Islamic Revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, issued a fatwa declaring sex reassignment surgery permissible for "diagnosed transsexuals." Eshaghian's documentary, Be Like Others, chronicles a number of stories of Iranian gay men who feel transitioning is the only way to avoid further persecution, jail and/or execution.

 

Wow, that's just... wow. Ridiculous. It's like some countries are stuck living in the past with the way they look at certain things.



#3 disastrousmaster

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:36 AM

There's a few issues and topics I'd like to combine in this single thread, and see where it leads. There's been a hell of a big hoopla and debate over the Supreme Court (USA) case on homosexual marriage, and yet there's a slightly different issue that brushes this one but doesn't quite reach it:

Gender Identity. I quote from the website Here:


Cheers~

Personally i find being of a mind that your gender is not correct a little confusing, but I dont really see any problems with letting them change their gender if they so wish. Truth be told in reality after a sex change operation i still see them as being of the same gender. You can change what you look like now, but you cannot change how you were born.

The Iranian government's "solution" for homosexuality is to endorse, and fully pay for, sex reassignment surgery. The leader of Iran's Islamic Revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, issued a fatwa declaring sex reassignment surgery permissible for "diagnosed transsexuals." Eshaghian's documentary, Be Like Others, chronicles a number of stories of Iranian gay men who feel transitioning is the only way to avoid further persecution, jail and/or execution.

While this could be said to be wrong I see this as more of a good thing than a bad thing. while it does state their is persecution that makes them feel that they have to change genders to escape it. This still helps those who wish to change purely because they wish it to be so. Even if I find this weird I wont say they cant do it.

If, in twenty years from now, the institution of marriage in America is completely separated from involvement by any form of government (local, state and federal government will have no say on defining marriage, which will be left as a private matter), how do you conceive society adapting to such behavioral changes, and state whatever positives and/or negatives you anticipate being generated from it.

 

The issue with the government on having a say on marriage is purely tax related in my mind. The government does not wish to see more tax benefits going to same sex couples due to the possibility of fraud on parts with people of the same sex whom wish to get married purely to have more benefits. This idea is a little silly though and can be seen as being a little over the top. I have my doubts on gay couples getting married purely for these benefits. I forget what the movie is but they made a comedy of this idea at one point. Where two men who were not gay got married so that they one could retain the health benefits he had from when he was married to help out his children and such.


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#4 Sev

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:47 AM

While this could be said to be wrong I see this as more of a good thing than a bad thing. while it does state their is persecution that makes them feel that they have to change genders to escape it. This still helps those who wish to change purely because they wish it to be so. Even if I find this weird I wont say they cant do it.

 

I see why you're saying that, but I don't think that kind of policy can be considered in any form to be "good" or "positive". It's not out of their government's good nature that they're paying for and endorsing sex reassignment surgery, it's them offering a "solution" to something they consider to be a problem. That much is obvious from the fact that those who don't go through with the surgery receive punishment. It's a way of them covering over homosexuality as if it doesn't exist anymore if they change the sex of those people.

 

The only thing can be remotely considered good about it is that people who genuinely wish to receive that surgery, won't have to fork out thousands to have it done - it's good that they can feel more comfortable in their body. But that doesn't justify the policy at all, most homosexuals are completely comfortable with the way they are and the way their body is, and so this is just a disgusting form of discrimination that should not exist in this world. Sadly, it probably always will.


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#5 Don Kanonji

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:48 AM

Sooo..uhm...you just wanted to show this or...?
For me there is something missing. Something like "is that right?", "what do you think?", etc.. Something these facts refer to.

Maybe i didn´t get the crucial part of this, english is not my mother language.

 


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#6 m1hawkgsm

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:00 PM

Sooo..uhm...you just wanted to show this or...?
For me there is something missing. Something like "is that right?", "what do you think?", etc.. Something these facts refer to.

Maybe i didn´t get the crucial part of this, english is not my mother language.

Edited for your and other people's convenience.

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#7 disastrousmaster

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:15 PM

2. Should gender nonconformists (transsexuals, etc.) be accomodated their change? (Example: should a FtM be forced to use the women's room?, etc.).

I didnt answer this before as far as the bathroom issue. I think that with the fact that they indeed had the sex change they will probably just use the ones that go towards the sex that they changed to. Even were the government made to make them have their own bathrooms for changed males and females it wouldnt fully work unless someone paid close attention. You cant completely tell when someone has had a sex change from a glance or whatnot especially after the change. Of course if found out to be of a changed sex sometimes people would see this as wrong and tell them that they should not be in this bathroom because of the sex that they were before. I guess the only way to find out would be to have the issue studied. :shrug:


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#8 Ultrafragor

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:49 PM


1. Do you believe Gender identity is a legitimate concept, independent of biological sex?

 

 

I feel like anyone that denied this would get flamed out of this sub

 

2. Should gender nonconformists (transsexuals, etc.) be accomodated their change? (Example: should a FtM be forced to use the women's room?, etc.).

 

Relevant Article:

 

 

An Open Letter To The Guy Who Chased My Son Out Of The Men’s Bathroom

 

 

I just want to start by applauding your decision to shout at us right off the bat. "She was in the men's room! Your daughter was in the men's room! A girl in the men's room!" For one thing, how else will we learn? For another, how else will we be covered in spittle? Plus, I think it's good, if you see something unexpected, to proceed with violent certainty rather than with, say, wonder or even doubt. Like the time I found that slightly darker "O" in my bowl of Cheerios and freaked out because I knew for sure that it was a wheel from the landing gear of a miniature UFO that was going to abduct me and probe my anus; if it were cereal, it would look like the rest of the cereal. Likewise, if you see a doll with short hair, even if it's lying next to a pair of scissors, you should think, "Ew. When did Ken's boobs get so big?"

 

It made sense, too, to continue to insist that he was a girl, even after he calmly explained that he had been in the men's room because he was a boy. ("It's Ken! But Ken has boobs!") And your distress over imagining that a preadolescent girl saw your man parts—"I was naked in there! She saw me naked!"—makes such an important point about the prevalence of peeping-Tommery in young girls, and the ways that middle-aged men are vulnerable to them.

 

To answer your question, "Are you its mom?" more unambiguously: Yes. But you're smart to ask, because maybe the whole family is a transgendered house of mirrors and I'm really "its" dad! (Last laugh—i.e. my having it—alert!) Certainly, though, it made a lot of sense to imagine that I had colluded in the perversion of sending a girl into the men's room because, after all, what parent doesn't want their daughter to be in a tiled room full of urinating men?

 

In conclusion, thank you for your valuable input. I can only hope that my son will leave behind his girly days of placid confidence and grow into somebody as manly as you—with the kind of balls it takes to scream at a child in public.

Yours truly,
It's Mother


Edited by Ultrafragor, 13 April 2013 - 09:50 PM.

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#9 kame d. kaze

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:19 PM

Wow, that's just... wow. Ridiculous. It's like some countries are stuck living in the past with the way they look at certain things.

Because those countries have yet to modernize. I think a lot of people fail to understand that "modernized" people didn't just drop out of the sky being modern, it was a tedious process. Anyways, sorry for being off topic.



#10 Ultrafragor

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:31 PM

Because those countries have yet to modernize. I think a lot of people fail to understand that "modernized" people didn't just drop out of the sky being modern, it was a tedious process. Anyways, sorry for being off topic.

 

America's as modern as it gets and "sodomy" is still illegal in some states. Along with this

 

Discrimination is not a thing of the past.



While this could be said to be wrong I see this as more of a good thing than a bad thing. while it does state their is persecution that makes them feel that they have to change genders to escape it. This still helps those who wish to change purely because they wish it to be so. Even if I find this weird I wont say they cant do it.

 

Lesbians+Gays>>>>Transexuals

 

*exasperated sigh

 

Conversations about lgbt issues with non-lgbt individuals----->Teaching your 90 year old grandmother how to use windows 8


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#11 disastrousmaster

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:22 AM

America's as modern as it gets and "sodomy" is still illegal in some states. Along with this

 

Discrimination is not a thing of the past.



 

Lesbians+Gays>>>>Transexuals

 

*exasperated sigh

 

Conversations about lgbt issues with non-lgbt individuals----->Teaching your 90 year old grandmother how to use windows 8

You misunderstand the reasoning within my post. i am saying that though there is still that problem with gays, the matter that particular government resolved dealt with Transsexuals. My answer had nothing to do with homosexuality. The country that is being addressed is not one that i know much about, but what I do know is that they have taken a step forward that most areas have not.  While this may not stop hate against gays it certainly helps with those whom wish to change sex. Do you disagree with this or no?


Edited by disastrousmaster, 14 April 2013 - 12:23 AM.

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“The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”― Eddard Stark, A game of thrones

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#12 Sev

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:43 AM

Because those countries have yet to modernize. I think a lot of people fail to understand that "modernized" people didn't just drop out of the sky being modern, it was a tedious process. Anyways, sorry for being off topic.

 

There is still discrimination around every corner even in "modern" countries. So I don't understand how you can speak of the process being tedious in the past tense - "it was a tedious process" - It's not finished, nor is it anywhere near being a fair world to those who are different than the majority and those who fail to meet societal norms.

 

To be fair (and to be on-topic lol), we've probably only just scratched the surface in regards to topics such as this being brought to the attention of society on a whole. Homosexual marriage is one such topic which is in the limelight in many countries recently, and just as much as there is support for change, there is a whole lot of hate out there too.  :shrug:



#13 kame d. kaze

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:03 AM

Wow, that's just... wow. Ridiculous. It's like some countries are stuck living in the past with the way they look at certain things.

It was in response to this. These countries have not developed yet. That's the point. They ARE stuck in the past. You are justifying your views through a modern perspective. Societal norm for them is different from yours since as you stated, they are living in the past.

 

I mentioned modernization being tedious precisely for that reason. Women didn't get the right to vote in America til the 1920's. That's not too long ago. The change of societies to being more "civilized" is a gradual process something that as you said even America/West has not reached. So yeah, judging these people doesn't make a lot of sense.



America's as modern as it gets and "sodomy" is still illegal in some states. Along with this

 

Discrimination is not a thing of the past.

Yeah I understand that of course. That was not point. I was responding to the "they are stuck back in time" comment. Obviously they are because it is a long process.






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