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[Character] Shiba "Kurosaki" Isshin (Part 3)


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#121 KittyGoesMeowMeow

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 04:54 PM

I attribute everyone getting bankai more to the fact that Kubo just wanted an easy out to certain things.

 

Also, bankai would be the only way anyone not named Ichigo would have a slight chance of defeating a VR.


Edited by KittyGoesMeowMeow, 03 August 2014 - 04:55 PM.


#122 hesoggy_shoehey

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 04:59 PM

I'm really curious about Isshin's Bankai. Only because I really can't even fathom a guess as to what it is.



#123 aoshi

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 03:30 PM

Lets see.

1. We know that it is fire based. Fire based can actually mean many things. From what we have seen from his shikai he can actually manipulate fire like pyro from X-men, or so I perceive it. The way he is shown to breath fire alludes to 2 thing, a dragon and a juggler. The first may have been foreshadowed by hitsugaya's bankai, the ice dragon succeeded the fire dragon. The second maybe connected to the ability of setting things aflame and not actually creating fire. This may also mean he actually needs a kindling or fuel for his power to work. Also that may connect him with the ability of creating flamable substances such as gasoline. The interesting part is that if isshin's power is actually setting things aflame, it is actually a perfect match for the house he belongs. If the shibas are actually the mechanic engenieers of shinigami they would need some kind of energy source for research and development. So isshin's power could have been a way to test inventions as the cannon, which clearly need a lot of energy to work.

2. His bankai takes a toll in his body health. This is actually an interesting part as isshin is portayed as a fighter with bulk and stamina. Kubo has also emphased that he can't use his bankai if not in top physical status so much that it makes me think that if he intends to kill him he will actually exploit this weakness because isshin will use his bankai while injured and that will finish him of. Anyway, he is not the first character to take a toll while using bankai. Ichigo, crumbled will using bankai in the byakuya fight, soi fong got exhausted because she use her missile, rukia was harmed by her bankai and hitsugaya had a timer in his bankai. All these characters shared one thing. Their power wasn't mature enough. That doesn't seem to amply on isshin so we are lead to another logical assumption. His power harms his body. This makes it even more possible that he is a fire manipulator. His body can't withstand the fire. He just manipulates it to attack. That means that his power is also his shield against the fire. He uses as a weapon something that can harm him. That is a very isshin like pattern which I will explain in the following bullet. Another reason why his bankai might be able to harm him is that he can actually become the fire. That may be a rukia analog, he can actually raise the temperature of his body or surrounding and not create fire directly or he can actually turn his body into a living fire (another juggler trick).

3. Like a moth to the flame. If any phrase could characterise isshin I think that this will be it. The way he saw masaki as the sun and his whole existance floating in orbit to her is the first evidence. But also the way he chases light, meaning the moral and right thing to do alludes to this phrase. He knew that meddling with the "white" case would be dangerous, he just disobeyed orders and went to investigate. He knew that he would lose his power to save masaki but he did it anyway. He wants to protect his son (ichigo) but lets him fight dangerous fights because he understands that this is actually the right thing to do (according to his percetion). All this show that  he has a certain attraction to what he perceives as right that he can't resist. He knows that his actions may harm him/ his personal interests but he does them anyway. He is like a moth to the flame. His bankai also states that. Engetsu, the enflamed moon. Not sun which someone would expext to see as an allegory to fire but moon. The only light in the dark, when moths get out. The moth (isshin) that phased the butterfly (aizen). The moth is also kinda like a butterfly that lost its luster. Just like he stopped being a captain and just as his clan lost its own luster.

4. The getsuga tenso. Now this is a puzzling one because getsuga tenso is completely separated from the fire motif. But the moon motif can be a connection to the energy form (the energy of light) and and the fire form= moon seen as a hidden sun or reflecting the rays of the sun. Anyway, since I think that what the nature of getsuga tenso is, is actually plot relevant and we are going to get a detailed explanation of why it was inherited, wheter it is shinigami or quincy related, if it is a generic ability or a zan ability, if it is artificial or natural and what is its final form (an attempt to mimic vollstanding perhaps), i will not go any further to the getsuga question. In any case it will actually be interesting to find out that ichigo got his quincy power from isshin (an impure quincy) and not masaki (a pure one).

 

I wonder what does isshin shiba actually means in kanji. I think that the shin in isshin is the kanji for heart and the is is ichi meaning one but no clue for shiba.


Edited by aoshi, 04 August 2014 - 03:37 PM.


#124 hesoggy_shoehey

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 06:04 PM

Kaien's Zan was a water based one right? Just trying to think of all the known Shiba clan Zan's and their element based abilities. Maybe it'll give some clues to what the Shiba clan's actual place in SS was.



#125 aoshi

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 06:23 PM

isshin fire

kaien water

ganju earth

so that makes kuukaku wind???

 

Also kanji wise

1. kaien --> kai: sea, en: swallow (the bird)

2. ganju --> gan: rock, ju: eagle

3. kuukaku --> kuu: sky, kaku: crane (the bird)

but

4. isshin --> is (ichi): one, shin: heart

I wonder if isshin's middle name has something to do with fire and a bird.

 

Still wondering if shiba kanji can clarify or foreshadow something.


Edited by aoshi, 04 August 2014 - 06:27 PM.

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#126 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 06:43 PM

I wonder what does isshin shiba actually means in kanji. I think that the shin in isshin is the kanji for heart and the is is ichi meaning one but no clue for shiba.

 

Still wondering if shiba kanji can clarify or foreshadow something.


Shiba: 志波.

 

志 meaning "will/motive/resolve" and 波 meaning "wave(s)."

Isshin: 一心 meaning "wholeheartedness" or "wholeheartedly" as the individual characters are "one" and "heart."

Kaien: 海燕, meaning "sea/ocean swallow."
Kuukaku: 空鶴, meaning "sky crane" with the first character having a nuance of "emptiness/void."
Ganju: 岩鷲, meaning "rock eagle."

 

Ichigo completes the godai elements of Japanese philosophy with his power having void themes.


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#127 aoshi

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 06:49 PM

While making some research I found that shiba when read as a whole with the same kanji has some connections to a tree, but not exactly sure.

Anyway, the bird names raise the question why bird names? :D



#128 Milareppa

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 07:19 PM

One thing I do know about Kaien's name (for ornithological, not literary, reasons) is that while the kanji break down to sea/ocean swallow, the bird that actually refers to is the storm petrel, a bird that - in many languages (not just Japanese) - often gets nicknamed the 'swallow of the sea' (in various ways, depending on language).

However, one thing to note about the storm petrel is that, in the Christian world, the petrel is associated with Saint Peter due to the illusion of it being able to walk on water - Saint Peter symbolism has been cropping up a lot in the final arc.

Among the many legends of the storm petrel is that its appearance is associated with rain which is one of several reasons why I think the shinigami soul that was used in the creation of White was Kaien's - because White and the rain were considered to be linked the way the storm petrel and rain is (and in the form of Mother Carey's Chicken, the storm petrel symbolises the raw power of the sea and water in general). It's also the soul of the dead - either dead sailors, or the souls of those who died by drowning (which was usually sailors).

The storm petrel is also associated with revolution in society (thanks to Russian and German anarchists and literature mostly, but other European countries as well). Kaien was indicated by both Ukitake and Byakuya to be that type of person - Byakuya, in particular, felt Ichigo's revolutionary attitude reminded him of Kaien's same attitude.

A lot of what I've said is applicable to Japanese mythology because the petrel is found associated with certain shrines as a 'bad luck' kami - prayers are offered to the petrel to ensure he's not in a bad mood for the coming year so he will protect people using water (sea, rivers, lakes, mountains, etc.) instead of drowning them. The theory is that the petrel mythology has entered Japan via Russia as it shares the Russian flavour of the bird's mythology. The Ekijin festival (to the petrel) at Yoshida Shrine occurs the day before the Setsuban festival (beginning of February) - it's the first of several festivals over a couple of days. The Setsuban festival is the demon-scattering festival of the New Year and one of its major purposes is to protect people against illness (as well as encourage happiness and peace) for the coming year - so, thanks to the close association of the two festivals, the petrel is also associated with protection from illness and the wishing of peace and happiness. And here we see possible connections to Kaien's heavy support of the often-ill Ukitake (who himself has water themes).

Edited by Milareppa, 04 August 2014 - 07:38 PM.

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#129 DarkNemesis

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:05 PM


Among the many legends of the storm petrel is that its appearance is associated with rain which is one of several reasons why I think the shinigami soul that was used in the creation of White was Kaien's

 

Help me understand how that's possible? Kaien's spirit body was with Metastacia and then Aaroniero. And Ichigo is supposedly the splitting image of Kaien. Suggesting to some degree that Kaien was reincarnated as Ichigo. But if Kaien's soul was in White, then how could Aizen have captured it?


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#130 Milareppa

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:10 PM

Help me understand how that's possible? Kaien's spirit body was with Metastacia and then Aaroniero. And Ichigo is supposedly the splitting image of Kaien. Suggesting to some degree that Kaien was reincarnated as Ichigo. But if Kaien's soul was in White, then how could Aizen have captured it?


The spirit body wasn't the soul and, as you say, that spirit body was connected to Metastacia and Aaroniero. Kaien didn't die immediately. Rukia dragged him back to the Shiba family home and he was still alive at that point. Ganju remembers Kaien smiling at Rukia and thanking her before he died and he couldn't comprehend why.

So, I don't know at what point Kaien's spirit body broke apart and winged its way to Hueco Mundo where it was captured by Aaroniero, but Kaien died close to Seireitei and we don't know the fate of his soul at all. However, we do know Aizen had the capability of capturing souls because he was feeding them - or shaven pieces of souls - to his Hougyoku for years. So, he was not only capable of capturing souls, he was capable of capturing pieces of souls. The manga has glossed over how.

#131 CuChulainn

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 11:07 AM


His bankai takes a toll in his body health. This is actually an interesting part as isshin is portayed as a fighter with bulk and stamina. Kubo has also emphased that he can't use his bankai if not in top physical status so much that it makes me think that if he intends to kill him he will actually exploit this weakness because isshin will use his bankai while injured and that will finish him of. Anyway, he is not the first character to take a toll while using bankai. Ichigo, crumbled will using bankai in the byakuya fight, soi fong got exhausted because she use her missile, rukia was harmed by her bankai and hitsugaya had a timer in his bankai. All these characters shared one thing. Their power wasn't mature enough. That doesn't seem to amply on isshin so we are lead to another logical assumption. His power harms his body. This makes it even more possible that he is a fire manipulator. His body can't withstand the fire. He just manipulates it to attack. That means that his power is also his shield against the fire. He uses as a weapon something that can harm him. That is a very isshin like pattern which I will explain in the following bullet. Another reason why his bankai might be able to harm him is that he can actually become the fire. That may be a rukia analog, he can actually raise the temperature of his body or surrounding and not create fire directly or he can actually turn his body into a living fire (another juggler trick).

Two things:

1. An analogy to Rukia? More like an analogy to Yamamoto. Or a combination of both xD.

2. The statement about Isshin's Bankai taking a toll on him comes from the EBTR, right? Well, some time has passed since that moment - and some since Isshin has regained his Shinigami powers. The fact that it's a burden on his body doesn't mean that it simply is that way - maybe his Bankai IS not fully mature yet. Just like Soifon, whose Bankai can still improve (if I recall correctly, she said that she can fire more times a day than earlier). Maybe he needs a revamp in a manner similar to Byakuya's or Renji's, or something along the lines.



#132 hesoggy_shoehey

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 08:20 PM

Whatever his Bankai is, I hope he gets to show it off in a fight where he actually wins. I'm ready for some characters who haven't gotten a big spotlight in battle's yet to throw down.



#133 PlasmaWolf

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 08:40 PM

I'm ready for some characters who haven't gotten a big spotlight in battle's yet to throw down.

 

Next several chapters: MOAR BYAKUYA.


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#134 aoshi

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 03:50 AM

Two things:

1. An analogy to Rukia? More like an analogy to Yamamoto. Or a combination of both xD.

2. The statement about Isshin's Bankai taking a toll on him comes from the EBTR, right? Well, some time has passed since that moment - and some since Isshin has regained his Shinigami powers. The fact that it's a burden on his body doesn't mean that it simply is that way - maybe his Bankai IS not fully mature yet. Just like Soifon, whose Bankai can still improve (if I recall correctly, she said that she can fire more times a day than earlier). Maybe he needs a revamp in a manner similar to Byakuya's or Renji's, or something along the lines.

I said rukia analogy because she started to "break" when in bankai state.

I suspect (but might be wrong) that some bankai have endogenous restrictions, as far as the effects they have on the wielders body. For instance soifong gets really tired when using her bankai. It is clear that she has  improved but it is very vague if she will ever reach a point where she will be able to freely fire missiles. Her mastery of the bankai can mean something else (being able to move more quickly). The same goes for rukia. It is still vague if her bankai has a time limit that can be extended when mastered, but it is still possible that mastery of her bankai could be just to learn how to prolong its use by supressing for the longest time possible its side effects.

The difference all these have with isshin is that we know isshin can't even perform bankai if he is injured. So we can assume that his bankai not only has an effect in his body but may also absorb energy supplies making isshin weaker from the beginning.



#135 Milareppa

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:27 AM

We don't know if that is an issue specific to Isshin or something that's a general concern with bankai.

By that, what I mean is this: Aizen indicates that he was thinking of something specific to Isshin's bankai when he decided to slash Isshin. However, the theory on a more general level may apply to a lot of shinigami. Given what we've seen of bankai throughout the entire manga, there's always some kind of cost involved. Bankai cannot be used without consequences. Experienced, powerful shinigami may be able to minimise (or, more accurately, better control) the downsides of their bankai, but that doesn't stop downsides from existing, no matter what (ie, no matter how experienced/well-controlled the shinigami becomes, the downsides or 'costs' will always exist).

We've learned about 'costs' with several bankai (Soifon, Komamura, Byakuya), including some that have been implied to have 'costs' of some kind (Urahara, Kyouraku). Isshin joins an existing list, rather than standing out as unique for having some kind of problem with the idea of freely using bankai.

Soifon's once-per-three-days rules sounds fairly insurmountable. Had we been told it in advance of ever seeing her bankai, we might speculate that it's a rigid, unbreakable rule of her bankai. We still don't know how far she will ever be able to push it but the key message of her issue is that her bankai consumes a lot of reiatsu to use just once: whether or not she becomes better able to absorb such a high reiatsu output in the long run, the fact that it has a huge reiatsu cost probably isn't the aspect of her bankai that will ever change.

As a result, we don't know how insurmountable Isshin's bankai restriction is. Depending on English translation, Aizen's comment can sound like it's accommodating the possibility of Isshin being able to work with the restriction if absolutely necessary or it can sound like there's no negotiation on how unbreakable Aizen believes the restriction to be. Either way, however, it's Aizen's knowledge of Isshin's bankai that's being discussed, not the reality of Isshin's situation - and 20 years before Chapter 1 ever began, which means we don't know if Isshin's current situation is the same now, even if Aizen was absolutely accurate 20 years ago. Up until Karakura Town's battle, Soifon always thought she had to use her bankai once every three days: so was that what Aizen thought about her bankai, too? We don't know. The same could be true for Isshin as well.

Edited by Milareppa, 03 September 2014 - 11:36 AM.


#136 ddboy102

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:39 AM

Whatever his Bankai is, I hope he gets to show it off in a fight where he actually wins. I'm ready for some characters who haven't gotten a big spotlight in battle's yet to throw down.



Haha nno in this life time.
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#137 hesoggy_shoehey

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 06:29 PM

Haha nno in this life time.

 

One can hope. I'll hold on to hope until I'm disappointed too. Lol all about the resolve. :xD:



#138 KittyGoesMeowMeow

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 11:28 AM

I can't see Kubo killing him off though...especially since Ichigo be going to the RR after this is all over with. Who would take care of the twins? Ryuken? 



#139 Haas

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:44 PM

Hm so all Shiba so far are a combination of an element (fire,wind,water,earth) and a bird. I wonder if that is somehow true for Ichigo. Personally about the "Getsuga Tensho" skill I feel it is a technique of the Shiba clan that condenses reiatsu and bursts it out in a powerful shot. Seeing how the Shibas have that cannon and Kuukaku helping Ichigo enter Seiretei using a cannon kido, this may be true, meaning that if not all then at least SOME Shibas can use a getsuga.

As a third option, it may be a technique Isshin develloped using the Shibas knowledge and background in cannons, which was passed down to Zangetsu(Whitey) when he fought him to save Masaki. After all it was Zangetsu that used Getsuga Tensho when Ichigo first went Bankai(which was in all fairness not his real zanpakuto bankai but rather Juha Bachs powers manifesting).

 

I can't remember however when Ichigo did his first Getsuga Tensho tho...perhaps during Urahara's training?



#140 hesoggy_shoehey

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 06:44 PM

Yeah it was during that training when he figured it out. I would love for his abilities to be something like a phoenix. It would go with the fire and bird theme. 






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