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How far can government intrude in your life before it actually becomes intrusive?


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#21 Sauron

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:21 AM

no but the idea is to defend yourself properly  in the areas that require that defense. monitoring all americans to catch the few is tiring and unrewarding.


So you locate areas of vulnerability i.e. areas where lots of people visit/gather and areas most likely to be used to radicalise/educate extremists i.e. Mosques if terrorists are Muslim. And you locate vulnerable people i.e. gullible and docile people who are easy to manipulate and their teachers i.e. people who are hostile and have rhetoric that might be used to train vulnerable individuals/groups.

I never said monitor all Americans if you're looking for Muslim terrorists. Presumably they're monitoring all Americans looking for criminals, terrorists and potential for illegal activity. Even though terrorist attacks are more politically damaging, the chances of being killed in criminal activities is greater. I think the statistics will show this. The government is in the business of protecting as many innocent people as possible. And I don't believe trained, educated agents are going to be as prejudiced as people are perceiving them to be: there's just nothing to gain from monitoring innocent people; I doubt the president will bother rewarding an NSA agent for spotting some random person rather than spotting credible threats. Whether you like it or not, targeted surveillance of areas where potential terrorists might visit is the best place to start. You might say they're discriminating and you're right: they are discriminating between people with low probability of being a Muslim terrorist and people with high probability of being a Muslim terrorist. You might say that's unfair blah blah blah... but if there weren't any terrorist attacks perpetrated by Muslims then there would never have been the need for this kind of surveillance. In order for there to be a reduction in surveillance on Mosques, there needs to be a reduction in Muslim terrorist threats; in other words: Muslims can contribute by weeding out terrorists in their midst as well as ensuring they are not facilitating anything that can potentially mould perfectly law abiding people into mass murderers.
 

there is little that will be found to actually be relevant, and you will more likely catch people whom are making harmless jokes than those that are actually trying to do said act.

I disagree. You might not find anyone plotting terrorist attacks, but you might find links seeing as Mosques are places where Islam is taught and a place of Muslim worship. Once again, you're not going to find Muslim terrorists in other places e.g. gay bars, unless of course they're planning to kill gay people. And if a 'Muslim' person is actually gay, then chances are they're not going to be extremists in the sense that they're going to kill people for not following the teachings of the Quran word for word. It would be very hypocritical for them to do so.
 

those whom would try to act in a manner that is not seen as good by the rest of the world certainly wouldnt have their members whom were on the lower scale post their meaning, also by saying such things you make it more likely that you would be found. were there some strange terrorist R us website where all the terrorist within the world gathered online to conspire against the world then yeah I think that would be a safe idea to monitor, but to monitor a religious site just because a few people whom are within said religion have done these acts to say that you should monitor all traffic on said site is ridiculous and, since it holds to a religious area, invasive.


You're not making any sense again.

Saying what things? They don't necessarily have to run around the Mosque shouting "death to the west" or any other typical terrorist speak.

It's not ridiculous to monitor all traffic on said site and certainly not ridiculous to monitor all activity in a public Mosque. Besides, like I've just said, Mosques are public spaces whether you like it or not, so why not have CCTV within them? I mean, almost every other public spaces have CCTV in them so why should Mosques be exempt?
 


also I doubt that they do public propaganda at their place of worship, more like they will talk with the individuals inside or around such an area


Propaganda might be anything, whether it's news reports or merely teaching from the Quran. One person I've heard thinks of it like a conveyor belt. It'll begin with small things and gradually lead on to bigger things until at the end of the conveyor belt, the person is a full blown Muslim extremist. So it's crucial that such individuals are monitored at the earliest possible stage of radicalisation. It's all about prevention. No cop or Senator or President wants to give the order to kill people-- they want to prevent it. And like Obama says, "you can't have 100% security; 100% privacy; 0% inconvenience," which is a point of view that I actually agree with. It just makes sense. But what makes even more sense is to target the most likely areas of terrorist infiltration rather than looking at a haystack; given the lack of resources, that would just be unfeasible. Money just doesn't grow on trees! That money could've been diverted into better projects than drained away focusing on mammoth amounts of data.
 

find out if they are opposed to certain things in the world and then after they have found out such things meet with them and try to recruit them. they will do their propaganda for their recruitment but not in the place of worship.


No, you don't just randomly walk up to people and ask whether or not they're against certain things. You allow it to happen naturally. So you go to a Mosque and then befriend individuals who think like you and agree with you. After that you get them onto the conveyor belt of radicalisation! And do it all privately so that you don't draw attention.
 

also you would need to have the priest(dont know what they are called in islam) agree to the broadcasting of what goes on in their place of worship and judging by how much disfavor seems to be shown for images of the prophet mohammad(think thats how I spell that) it is highly unlikely to be something that they would like.


TECHNOLOGY! They can quite easily communicate through their phones or computers etc. Or quietly talk amongst themselves in a corner where nobody is watching. It doesn't take long to show people in a Mosque pictures of their prophet posted by someone else from a phone and gauge everyone's reactions.
 

then it goes into the seperation of church and state to police a church you must bring the state into the matter, and yes while I get that if the religious belief steps upon the rights of others that the government can step in, however with the matter of terrorist and islam is the two are seperate. so you could not legally say that terrorism is a proper reasoning to invade the privacy of all islamic worshippers.


Putting CCTV in a Mosque wouldn't be establishing or prohibiting worship. Besides, it might possibly be for their own good!


Edited by Sauron, 15 June 2013 - 07:10 PM.


#22 Rayman

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:03 AM

Even if the DNI and the President say so, how are they not going through the private lives of private citizens with this all-encompassing dragnet. Too many eyes and too many opportunities for abuse and "new ideas" for that assurance to be taken too seriously.

I dont believe them. I was just saying that them claiming that they're not mass spying on US citizens, just everybody else, isn't somehow better. Especially seeing as it was a UK paper that originally broke the story >.<



#23 DarkNemesis

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:16 AM

I dont believe them. I was just saying that them claiming that they're not mass spying on US citizens, just everybody else, isn't somehow better. Especially seeing as it was a UK paper that originally broke the story >.<


Do you live in the UK?

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#24 Rayman

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:19 AM

I do.



#25 DarkNemesis

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:31 AM

I do.

 

Since you refuted my "CC cameras is everywhere" as bunk, I wonder how the UK government is handling the war on terrorism. Because the way they make it sound here in the US is that your gov't has some far-reaching laws that may constitute it as one step short of a police state.


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#26 Sauron

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:15 AM

In the wake of Lee Rigby's murder, there have been revenge attacks on Muslims across the length and breadth of this Green and Pleasant Land! Now, although I cannot support EDL in their endeavour to flush out (or burn out) Muslims, since I am a very tolerant person, I hope we will - as a society - move towards the position of agnosticism (atheism works too) so that people do not harbour extreme beliefs or extreme beliefs within religions of peace. I suspect that the entire world is actually becoming more liberal, more progressive, with more science based thinkers. It's a trend that I foresee gaining momentum. Then maybe we'll have lower surveillance on people. Everyone living in peace and prospering in terms of economy is really what we all want. ...but then again, there's not much I can do about it. I suppose I'll just keep dreaming.


Edited by Sauron, 09 June 2013 - 10:21 AM.





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