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#221 aoshi

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 04:36 AM

Respectfully I have to disagree with that. You can't hold the European people accountable for anti-refugee sentiment. Whatever the reasons may be that their people need to flee from their unstable dangerous nations, the average European did not vote on every single act of foreign policy that may have contributed to it. These decisions were made by the governments and influenced by elites or other interest groups (via campaign donations or what not) that had personal stake in the outcome of such action. They never asked to screw up the middle east, so I would argue that it's not fair to make them take responsibility for the ruined lives of the refugees and claim that they have an obligation to open their neighborhoods and economy to the refugees. 

Along those lines, anti-refugee sentiment is going to exist, regardless of the media's influence. A better strategy for the pro-remain to adopt would have been to acknowledge the sentiments and concerns of the native European people rather than push an agenda over them and treat them like their concerns were irrelevant because it would be considered xenophobic or racist to not do so. The feeling of being ignored was a large factor in driving brexiters to ignore pro-EU media.

In my opinion, you can't close the door to suffering human beings regardless of whether they are your responsibility or not.

And take into account that I am saying that while my country, Greece, has suffered the biggest turmoil from the emigration affair.

What should we do to halt the immigration waves? Sink the boats?

And again I am making this argument while the immigrant:native ration in Greece is 2.00.000:9.500.000^ (17,4% immigrants not counting the unrecorded who are estimated to approximately 300.000-500.000 from unregistered births, unregistered entrances and people who never ask for a green card)

^ note that these numbers aren't exclusively the result of the recent immigration wave, which only partly contributes an smaller amount of emigrants to these numbers

 

It is clear that a person won't leave his birthplace and put himself and his offspring in an merely floating boat just for fun.

Someone stated in a previous post and I haven't answer that. Yes islamic countries must also share the burden of emigration. We cannot expect everything to come from Europe. On the other hand chauvinism is not a good reflex at this kind of matters. I agree that the immigration relocation can't become in a rag tag way but we can't keep putting the problem under the carpet either.

The real and rather sad conclusion one can reach is that immigrants are weaponized and become a means of political games. Inside Europe we have those political forces who try to ride the wave of fear and concern in order to gain political power and Turkish government uses the immigrants to gain in a diplomatic level from Europe, in general, and from Greece, in particular. And to be more clear about this matter, the sovereignty of Greece (which is and should be considered a european union boarder if the union is what claims to be) which extends to the majority of the Aegean sea is constantly questioned. Masked behind the cooperation between countries in order to find a solution to the immigration problem the last months even islands/ boarders have been questioned (which isn't a first but anyway).

Finally, I want to state that I too have my concerns. People who are settling to Europe are in many cases of different cultural and religious background than that of many european countries including my country. I don't state this from the perspective of racism but out of concern of whether or not these people will manage to fit in. France for instance partly suffers the recent problems because, for many reasons, some people (of 3rd or 4th generation immigrants) didn't manage to fit in and view the country as their homeland. And there comes what I said about hiding the problem under the carpet. The problem came not from the first or second generation but from the 3rd and 4rth, at the point where immigrants have managed (at some rudimentary level) to solve the basic needs and started a journey of self-definition in a society that hadn't exactly managed to make the fit.


Edited by aoshi, 25 June 2016 - 04:50 AM.


#222 Bloodknight

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 11:53 AM

@aoshi

 

who are the 3rd and 4th generation of  the immigrants you're are talking about? Unfortunatly for those that  did manage to fit in an European country  and  those are still trying to fit in are in difficulties not only because they face descrimination in finding jobs or generalization for exemple, but they are even  facing troubles  with those who don't want to fit in.


                                                


#223 Milareppa

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 01:49 PM

The feeling of being ignored was a large factor in driving brexiters to ignore pro-EU media.


Just a correction. The UK has no mainstream pro-EU media. Even the local or fringe media that do engage in pro-EU sentiments will balance that out with anti-EU articles.

The closest mainstream media gets to pro-EU would be The Guardian, The Mirror and The Economist, and even they try to come across as 'neutral' by including anti-EU articles that pander to the misconceptions instead of addressing the pros and cons of the EU in a factual way.

However, you are right in that a lot of Leave votes came from people who felt disenfranchised with the Westminster establishment and who felt their concerns have been ignored for far too long.

Whatever else people can say about the referendum, how it was organised, conducted, and what the result ended up being, the idea that ordinary people have been ignored for far too long is a sentiment that is completely right.

The trouble for these people is that the much more immediate problem is how Westminster ignores the ordinary people - being inside or outside the EU has nothing to do with that specific problem.
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#224 aoshi

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 08:04 PM

But you could also frame the other argument. It's true that it's difficult to send illegal immigrants that arrive by boat back to the country that the came from, and enforcing border security requires actions that many on the left would consider inhumane, such as shooting down boats, even if they are logical from a tactical perspective relative to the objective. It's a complex problem, but as clearly demonstrated with Brexit and the rise of right wing nationalists like Le Pen in France, it's a problem that the EU will have to one day confront. 

I will answer more thoroughly but I don't consider humanity a privilege of neither the left not the right.

Morality and philanthropy exist way above political affiliations.



#225 DarkNemesis

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 09:43 PM

In normal circumstances, I would say that the Arab League has far more responsibility in finding sanctuary for refugees than Europe does. But. European policy and influence in the Middle East has played a signficant role in what has happened there. So, IMO, you just can't wash your hands of them and say, 'nah, your problem, not mine'. Especially if you're in the business of human rights, equal rights, and humane treatment of all peoples.


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#226 DarkNemesis

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 09:52 PM

But you are claiming European policy = European people. I think it's important to distinguish who is really responsible for said policy (in terms of government and interest groups vs people) for reasons I mentioned in an earlier post. 

 

Well to be technical, European policy does equal European people. Your representatives are European. The electorate voted those people in. When the representatives didn't listen, the electorate didn't make themselves heard AND didn't vote them out? So in short, the European people may not get all of the blame, or even most of the blame, but it does get some.


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#227 waleuska

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Posted 26 June 2016 - 01:35 AM

At the risk of veering off topic, I would counter then by saying, is it not inhumane to make the native people give up jobs and expose themselves and their families to danger from migrants who may come from nations whose cultures do not discourage physical or sexual violence, especially towards women in the case of the latter? Especially if said immigrants children and future generations do not assimilate? Or to make them compete with people who were bred in environments that offer a perspective of life from which much lower wages than the native people can comfortably live off of seem more than acceptable? 

And yet american doesn't have that problem.


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#228 thoryo

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Posted 26 June 2016 - 05:02 PM

And yet american doesn't have that problem.

idk were you got your info bud, but alot of Americans hate illegals, and back on top grats britain for getting your freedom back!



#229 Rayman

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Posted 26 June 2016 - 06:09 PM

I'm seriously convinced at this point that the prominent leave campaigners, like Boris and Farage didn't expect or even want to win. They've immediately backpedaled on the proposed NHS funding 'Saved from the eu', lowering immigration, economic forecasts, and seemingly want to delay invoking article 50. They've admitted already they had no plan if they won. Now this!

There's been that appealing theory that it was just a populist power play for Boris to take control of the tory party, and that Cameron stepping down has thrown a spanner in the works, as no one actually wants to be the PM to take us out of the EU and potentially break up the UK. Now it looks all the more true.

 

I can't see a way out of this without serious unrest or riots. Half of the public has been galvanized into hating the EU for decades by the press, unchallenged by anyone in power or in opposition, and they wont accept anything less than out. Seemingly Boris and leave now are saying they want an EEA or similar agreement, and I doubt the UK, as it is now (scotland, gibraltar, NI border peace) will survive without that compromise.

 

What a complete and total cock up. What a fucking embarrassment. I'm so angry at my country for this mess.


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#230 waleuska

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Posted 26 June 2016 - 10:29 PM

idk were you got your info bud, but alot of Americans hate illegals, and back on top grats britain for getting your freedom back!

hate illegals is one thing that wasn't my point. My point was that muslim here assimilate vs the ones in Europe.

 

We do not have the problem of whole muslim communities practicing sharia law.


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#231 thoryo

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 10:37 AM

hate illegals is one thing that wasn't my point. My point was that muslim here assimilate vs the ones in Europe.

 

We do not have the problem of whole muslim communities practicing sharia law.

I'm living in a city with 5 mosques, And i can tell you there not that much assimilated here in the us.



#232 Chillman

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 05:13 PM

And yet american doesn't have that problem.


American Muslims are generally more integrated, along with America having a better police force/intelligence agency to deal with terrorists.
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#233 thoryo

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 11:39 PM

American Muslims are generally more integrated, along with America having a better police force/intelligence agency to deal with terrorists.

i respectfully have to disagree, but this topic is nether about the US nor Islam. As far as im concern UK is better of without the EU.



#234 DarkNemesis

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 04:23 AM

And to tie it altogether, the UK now understands the Gaza effect when it comes to democracy.


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#235 Phenomiracle

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 07:00 PM

American Muslims are generally more integrated

 

Having lived in England for almost two years (Reading, but had family in London and Luton that we visited frequently), my experiences have led me to conclude that as well. 

 

We're far more dispersed in our neighborhoods (though that's more of a reflection of population statistics relative to area), our mosques are far more engaged in community affairs, and we're more likely to speak English fluently. 


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#236 tenchu

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 05:27 AM

I'm seriously convinced at this point that the prominent leave campaigners, like Boris and Farage didn't expect or even want to win. They've immediately backpedaled on the proposed NHS funding 'Saved from the eu', lowering immigration, economic forecasts, and seemingly want to delay invoking article 50. They've admitted already they had no plan if they won. Now this!

There's been that appealing theory that it was just a populist power play for Boris to take control of the tory party, and that Cameron stepping down has thrown a spanner in the works, as no one actually wants to be the PM to take us out of the EU and potentially break up the UK. Now it looks all the more true.

 

I can't see a way out of this without serious unrest or riots. Half of the public has been galvanized into hating the EU for decades by the press, unchallenged by anyone in power or in opposition, and they wont accept anything less than out. Seemingly Boris and leave now are saying they want an EEA or similar agreement, and I doubt the UK, as it is now (scotland, gibraltar, NI border peace) will survive without that compromise.

 

What a complete and total cock up. What a fucking embarrassment. I'm so angry at my country for this mess.

you got that right. None of them wants to be PM right now. The incoming separation of Scotland is gonna be a catastrophe for the UK.   


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#237 kenkage

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 08:00 AM

Come to think about it, it's imposible for any country/reagion/province (call it what ever you want) to be independent if they don't have an army of their own, does Scotland have their own armed forces? I highly doubt it, even if Sturgeon declares right at this moment that Scotland is now an independent republic then they will have to be recognised by the UNSC but the UK does have veto power so they could just use it to prevent Scotland from being recognised, and since Scotland isn't south Sudan it's not like they are gonna start a sepratist war with London, and since Scotland won't be recognised by the UNSC they cannot join the EU.

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#238 Oben

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 09:18 AM

Come to think about it, it's imposible for any country/reagion/province (call it what ever you want) to be independent if they don't have an army of their own, does Scotland have their own armed forces? I highly doubt it, even if Sturgeon declares right at this moment that Scotland is now an independent republic then they will have to be recognised by the UNSC but the UK does have veto power so they could just use it to prevent Scotland from being recognised, and since Scotland isn't south Sudan it's not like they are gonna start a sepratist war with London, and since Scotland won't be recognised by the UNSC they cannot join the EU.

 

Of course it's possible, there are currently independent countries without a military right now.



#239 kenkage

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 09:21 AM

Of course it's possible, there are currently independent countries without a military right now.

example?

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#240 Oben

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 09:42 AM

example?

 

Nauru.






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