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[Discussion] Most Overrated/Underrated Characters (Part 24)


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#21 Tale

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 04:27 PM

We've never seen Luffy tired from just stretching, or just being rubber.

We've never seen Chopper tired from staying in his half man half deer state.

 

I don't think those support the case that Law and Caesar are likely to be exceptions. Luffy's Devil Fruit simply changed the constitution of his body. Usage of his abilities is arguably the same thing as physical exertion. Chopper could expend stamina in order to change, but that doesn't necessarily mean being in a particular form drains his stamina. Marco, on the other hand, might expend stamina to regenerate.

 

As for logias, I can't decide whether Oda was implying that logias have a "gas/lightning/magma" reserve to draw upon. It seems like such a limitation would have been described much earlier in the series and it is true that only Caesar has complained about this. But that still raises a question about why Caesar has such a limitation. 


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#22 Petite Fleur

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 04:47 PM


It seems like such a limitation would have been described much earlier in the series and it is true that only Caesar has complained about this.

 

Not necessarily. So long as you kept the logias to antagonists you can be as vague as you want for as long as you want. Weaknesses should only be quickly identified among protagonists.


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#23 Tale

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 05:05 PM

Not necessarily. So long as you kept the logias to antagonists you can be as vague as you want for as long as you want. Weaknesses should only be quickly identified among protagonists.

 

Limitations aren't necessarily weaknesses, but that nitpick aside, I agree. You could easily say there was no need to bring it up because all the logia we've seen so far had lots of stamina. But that still leaves the question of "Why now?" Maybe it's going to start being a factor once top tiers start fighting each other and Oda doesn't want it to seem like a retcon? 


Edited by Tale, 18 October 2014 - 05:06 PM.


#24 Petite Fleur

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 05:16 PM


Limitations aren't necessarily weaknesses

 

It's all about how they're treated, mind. I think a stamina rule that's only capable of being shown through antagonists for at least 200-odd chapters would look bad, limitation or weakness.


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#25 captain kidd

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 05:17 PM

Limitations aren't necessarily weaknesses, but that nitpick aside, I agree. You could easily say there was no need to bring it up because all the logia we've seen so far had lots of stamina. But that still leaves the question of "Why now?" Maybe it's going to start being a factor once top tiers start fighting each other and Oda doesn't want it to seem like a retcon? 

 

you know i think there were plenty of limitations we just never looked hard enough at.

Crocodile said if the sand storms got too big even he couldn't control it

Enel called out his max, once he reached his max

Aokiji couldn't freeze enough water to kill luffy

 

The logia have always had a "max" it is not "just now"


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#26 2 manga

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 07:39 PM

No, because the Gura Gura no Mi doesn't let the user shatter the entire Earth. Whitebeard had that potential because of who he was, but it's not a default of the fruit.

I wasn't referring to Sengoku's quote about Whitebeard's prowess with the fruit. I'm trying to figure out whether a hypothetical Gura Gura no mi, with its basic shattering abilities scaled up to the point where it's almost trivial for its user to shatter the entire world, falls under your definition of overpowered. 

 

More generally: Is there a point where the extension of a fruit user's capabilities afforded to the user through the fruit is so great, that you would classify such a fruit as overpowered (since the very existence of such a fruit user is intimidating) or does such a user not lie under your definition since the fruit hasn't afforded its user any immunities?  



#27 Petite Fleur

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 07:46 PM


I wasn't referring to Sengoku's quote about Whitebeard's prowess with the fruit. I'm trying to figure out whether a hypothetical Gura Gura no mi, with its basic shattering abilities scaled up to the point where it's almost trivial for its user to shatter the entire world, falls under your definition of overpowered. 

 

That user would have to do that, because the fruit doesn't do it passively, so no.

 


More generally: Is there a point where the extension of a fruit user's capabilities afforded to the user through the fruit is so great, that you would classify such a fruit as overpowered (since the very existence of such a fruit user is intimidating) or does such a user not lie under your definition since the fruit hasn't afforded its user any immunities?  

 

I would say that the user is still the one that's over powered in that regard. It's no different than saying Kuzan, scaled up, could freeze the world, or that Ace/Sabo could burn it down. That would make those people scary, but it doesn't necessarily do anything for the fruit.

 

Take Enel, for example. When he was primed up to destroy an entire island, that was because of him, his fruit and Maxim. Without one of those three things present, it would be an impossible feat and that means that all three of those things working together is scary, but one of those things by themselves, or even just two of them together, aren't or at least not as scary.


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#28 captain kidd

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 08:23 PM

That user would have to do that, because the fruit doesn't do it passively, so no.

 

 

 

 

I would say that the user is still the one that's over powered in that regard. It's no different than saying Kuzan, scaled up, could freeze the world, or that Ace/Sabo could burn it down. That would make those people scary, but it doesn't necessarily do anything for the fruit.

 

Take Enel, for example. When he was primed up to destroy an entire island, that was because of him, his fruit and Maxim. Without one of those three things present, it would be an impossible feat and that means that all three of those things working together is scary, but one of those things by themselves, or even just two of them together, aren't or at least not as scary.

 

wrong. Enel is more then capable of destroying an island without the maxim.

 

first thing, Robin confirmed he could Before she knew about the maxim, second........he has done it before


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#29 Petite Fleur

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 08:28 PM

wrong. Enel is more then capable of destroying an island without the maxim.

 

first thing, Robin confirmed he could Before she knew about the maxim, second........he has done it before

In the way that he did? With all of that destructive and terrifying power? Because he only had a tenth of that power without Maxim. I'm not saying he couldn't, but it'd take him several times longer to do it.


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#30 2 manga

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 08:31 PM

I would say that the user is still the one that's over powered in that regard. It's no different than saying Kuzan, scaled up, could freeze the world, or that Ace/Sabo could burn it down. That would make those people scary, but it doesn't necessarily do anything for the fruit.

 

Take Enel, for example. When he was primed up to destroy an entire island, that was because of him, his fruit and Maxim. Without one of those three things present, it would be an impossible feat and that means that all three of those things working together is scary, but one of those things by themselves, or even just two of them together, aren't or at least not as scary.

Okay. Thanks for clarifying. I'm inclined to agree.

 

From what I understand, by passive you refer to characteristics afforded to the user by the fruit by definition. Whereas active refers to any extensions formed by the user (such as Law increasing the range of "room").  

 

I can see why you'd define only passive abilities as overpowered, since almost any ability can be actively made overpowered depending on the user's ability to extend it. The only thing I'd question is defining only immunity passives as overpowered.(I don't mean that all passives should be defined as overpowered)  


Edited by 2 manga, 18 October 2014 - 08:32 PM.

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#31 Petite Fleur

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 08:39 PM


The only thing I'd question is defining only immunity passives as overpowered.(I don't mean that all passives should be defined as overpowered)  

 

It's a more specific definition, but I will admit that I'd have to stop and pour over a list of devil fruits to find any that don't have immunity passives that fit the definition. I would prefer the term superior as well because while over powered fits, it also carries the connotation of the fruit being "super 1337 haxxors" passively, and that's not necessarily true.

 

That said, if you take note of any fruits that fit the bill that aren't logia fruits, I'd be happy if you shared.


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#32 ddboy102

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 08:57 PM

good pic Marco is such a over wanked stuffed turkey.


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#33 Tale

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 07:28 AM

you know i think there were plenty of limitations we just never looked hard enough at.

Crocodile said if the sand storms got too big even he couldn't control it

Enel called out his max, once he reached his max

Aokiji couldn't freeze enough water to kill luffy

 

The logia have always had a "max" it is not "just now"

 

I'm aware of those limitations. We were talking about a logia being able to produce its element indefinitely, not saying they have no limits whatsoever. 


Edited by Tale, 19 October 2014 - 07:28 AM.


#34 Fulmine

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 08:40 AM


So you believe just that one fruit itself is exceptional? Is this for a case on why the fruit itself should be OP? 3:

Didn't those support each other?

 


I got that, but I wasn't sure how the Caesar bit related at all.

Ah, I mean in Caesar's case it may be a reflection of his character, just that we don't know yet.

And frankly, it can be the other way round, Law's case being reflection and Caesar's case being his fruit


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#35 Petite Fleur

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 11:58 AM


Didn't those support each other?

 

They weren't contrasting questions, no. They were both basically asking the same thing.

 


Ah, I mean in Caesar's case it may be a reflection of his character, just that we don't know yet.

 

I don't see how his fruit has a limitation for his character. It isn't something that'd make sense in the story.


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#36 Nmaan

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 07:28 AM

1) I don't think those support the case that Law and Caesar are likely to be exceptions. Luffy's Devil Fruit simply changed the constitution of his body. Usage of his abilities is arguably the same thing as physical exertion.

 

2) Chopper could expend stamina in order to change, but that doesn't necessarily mean being in a particular form drains his stamina. Marco, on the other hand, might expend stamina to regenerate.

 

As for logias, I can't decide whether Oda was implying that logias have a "gas/lightning/magma" reserve to draw upon. It seems like such a limitation would have been described much earlier in the series and it is true that only Caesar has complained about this. But that still raises a question about why Caesar has such a limitation. 

 

 

1) I think they do. Luffy's DF changed the constitution of his body, as logias change the constitution of the people who eat them. Luffy's stretching/twisting is a usage of his ability. He is rubber, he stretches. Akainu is magma he shoots magma fists.

 

2) Sure it doesn't but I don't see the change requiring stamina at least not in the sense that Law/Caesar seem to need stamina for their abilities.

Having said that, if the change required stamina why wouldn't maintaining the state require stamina? I personally don't believe either do.

 

And that still doesn't take into account the rest. Nobody has mentioned a stamina drain or shown a stamina drain. WB was quake punching away while dying. Marco didn't seem to be tired in the war, though you could be right in saying his regeneration is linked to his stamina.

 

DD has used his string fruit to cover a country create puppets and control people apparently simultaneously, he doesn't seem to be affected much if at all.

 

That isn't to say there is 0 drain, but given the evidence so far, the likely scenario is that the stamina drain for DFs other than for Law Caesar and possibly Marco.


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#37 Tale

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 08:47 AM

1) I think they do. Luffy's DF changed the constitution of his body, as logias change the constitution of the people who eat them. Luffy's stretching/twisting is a usage of his ability. He is rubber, he stretches. Akainu is magma he shoots magma fists.

 
I don't think that is a good analogy. 
 
Let me explain, first, why I don't think Luffy is a good counterexample to the argument that Devil Fruit abilities drain stamina. The Gomu Gomu no Mi makes Luffy's body like rubber. It is a property that is "acted upon", meaning that Luffy uses his physical strength and muscles to tense and stretch his body in order for attacks. In that sense, "stretching" is the same as a physical motion. I don't count it as an example of a Devil Fruit ability that drains stamina, because in this case, the physical movement is what's draining stamina. But you can't count it as evidence that Devil Fruits don't drain stamina, because the Gomu Gomu no Mi is not representative of all Devil Fruits.
 
So, Akainu. This isn't a good analogy because there is no reason to think that all his abilities are passive, like Luffy's. For example, I don't think his intangibility is something that drains stamina. It's a property of his magma body that is shown when his body is "acted upon". But you can't argue that this doesn't use stamina (or "magma energy"). That ability is not a passive property of Akainu's body. It's not a simple punch with a hand that is made of magma (which you can argue drains physical stamina). It either involves the production of more of his element or an intensification of the element that is already there, depending on how you think Logia abilities work. It's not analogous to Luffy's Devil Fruit, because Luffy does not have an ability like that.
 

2) Sure it doesn't but I don't see the change requiring stamina at least not in the sense that Law/Caesar seem to need stamina for their abilities.
Having said that, if the change required stamina why wouldn't maintaining the state require stamina? I personally don't believe either do.

 
I don't know whether, in fact, the change requires stamina. My point is that as long as you accept that being in a particular form may not require extra stamina, what you said ("We've never seen Chopper tired from staying in his half man half deer state.") doesn't help your case. There's no reason to think he needs to "maintain" his hybrid form, as if somehow, without stamina, he'd change into another form. (Unconscious Chopper remains in his hybrid form, by the way. 1 2  (As did Lucci and Jyabura.) Not sure it counts for something, but it might.) (Btw, I'm not counting stamina expended just from living, like daily calorie burn or something. Taking that into account, it's possible to argue that his hybrid form takes less energy than his other two forms.) 

 

 

Nobody has mentioned a stamina drain or shown a stamina drain.

 

Part of your argument relies on "absence of evidence" being "evidence of absence". There are circumstances in which I would agree with that kind of reasoning, but this case isn't one of them. So far, most of your examples have been "x was never tired", which, of course, doesn't logically entail "x's abilities don't use stamina, nor can it be counted as strong evidence for "x's abilities probably don't use stamina", because the (not so unlikely) possibility that these characters have massive stamina exists. Given that, it's not surprising that we don't see characters complaining about stamina.

 

However, it's not actually true that we don't see characters complaining about stamina. In your view, Caesar, Law and now Marco are exceptions. But they're also evidence against your view. :shrug: I don't think it's likely that your view is the correct one, because I don't see how you're justified in saying these are exceptions (and further, how your view explains the existence of these exceptions. Caesar's is the most problematic, in this respect) 

 

Also, this might be another example of "stamina" failing, though of course, it can be attributed to consciousness or damage as well:

http://www.mangainn....ter-481/page_14

http://www.mangainn....pter-482/page_4

http://www.mangainn....pter-482/page_8

http://www.mangainn....pter-482/page_9

http://www.mangainn....ter-482/page_17


Edited by Tale, 21 October 2014 - 08:47 AM.

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#38 Nmaan

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 06:56 AM

I'm at work and frankly not massively invested in this debate so I'll be brief.

1) Saying Marco is an example of stamina drain isn't true. Saying he's possibly an example of stamina drain is, it could be that he has a regeneration limit regardless of his stamina, whether he's drained or charged like the Energiser bunny. Other characters have shown limitations that don't appear to be stamina related  like Bartolomeo and his barriers, or Buggy not being able to levitate his feet, or Foxy's beam's effects only lasting thirty seconds.

 

2) Yes I'm arguing based on an absence of evidence in the sense that nobody has outright come out and said my DF doesn't drain my stamina, but I feel that, that is still the stronger side as Oda appears to have called out Law and CC for having stamina drain in what appears to be an exception basis. 

 

 

There have been countless opportunities to explain that DFs drain your stamina, none have been taken, and this is a fairly big point to just bypass.

We've had logia intangibility explained countless times (and BB stating he's the exception). Haki's ability to counteract certain aspects has been explained/touched on a large number of times as well. Zoans have been explained quite a few times, and even paramecias have.

Weaknesses of the DFs have been expanded on quite a few times (superiority, exploiting the element, Haki, water, salt, seastone)

 

And yet stamina drain hasn't been mentioned except by Law and CC, this would be a fairly hefty and a glaring miss and inconsistent with the way DFs have been presented throughout the manga as a whole.

 

I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong when Vegapunk explains all the mysteries behind them, but at this point I personally wouldn't be able to justify the position that all DF abilities drain stamina (with exceptions such as Luffy) rather than DF abilities don't drain stamina with the exception of the known cases Law/CC. 


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#39 Petite Fleur

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:42 AM


There have been countless opportunities to explain that DFs drain your stamina, none have been taken, and this is a fairly big point to just bypass.

 

It's not bypassed, no. Tale and I addressed it much earlier in all of this. What we're saying is simple: in terms of storytelling, Oda used his best opportunity to establish the rule. To have a rule that only antagonists show, can show, do show, or show in the majority is a bad rule. He could have included it with Robin but instead he showed her gradually get better at summoning more and more arms at once. What was her limit before, if not stamina? She had to pull magical energy from somewhere to run off of a magical limitation - so why not the one that's been established for two unrelated devil fruits?


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#40 Nmaan

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:44 AM

It's not bypassed, no. Tale and I addressed it much earlier in all of this. What we're saying is simple: in terms of storytelling, Oda used his best opportunity to establish the rule. To have a rule that only antagonists show, can show, do show, or show in the majority is a bad rule. He could have included it with Robin but instead he showed her gradually get better at summoning more and more arms at once. What was her limit before, if not stamina? She had to pull magical energy from somewhere to run off of a magical limitation - so why not the one that's been established for two unrelated devil fruits?

 

I would have stopped with my last post till I saw this one.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with this argument. Why are you assuming it was stamina and not control and/or imagination?

Consistently we've seen that DFs require training to be able to control their abilities.

Kaku and his pasta machine gave us a live example in a fight leading to his pasta machine look

Depending on how you view it reflex intangibility for logias is another example of control being required to develop DF abilities.

Luffy and his wildly off target punches is yet another example of control being a limiting factor for DFs. Luffy consistently developing new attacks to suit the situation has nothing to do with stamina, but has plenty to do with his control/imagination.

Sabo also appeared to say he hasn't yet learnt to fully control his DF in his fight with Fujitora.

BB said he couldn't control WB's power fully at the time of MF not that he didn't have the stamina to use his new fruit.

Chopper can now morph to all his forms bar one without the use of a rumble candy, and he said that his candy works by disrupting the DFs flow/wavelength, so it's not an energy pill, and now he's learnt to control how to do the changes without said candy, again this is an example of control leading to greater mastery and applications of DF abilities.

You could also argue that Moria and Sugar losing consciousness and then a grip on their abilities is another example of control being the key factor.

Brook too seemed to develop new abilities through control/imagination, there is 0 evidence for it being a stamina issue.

Perhaps they are all stamina related and Oda will make that clear in later chapters, as it stands though the evidence for that is not strong.


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