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[Discussion] Most Overrated/Underrated Characters (Part 24)


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#41 Tale

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:05 PM

I'm at work and frankly not massively invested in this debate so I'll be brief.

1) Saying Marco is an example of stamina drain isn't true. Saying he's possibly an example of stamina drain is, it could be that he has a regeneration limit regardless of his stamina, whether he's drained or charged like the Energiser bunny. Other characters have shown limitations that don't appear to be stamina related  like Bartolomeo and his barriers, or Buggy not being able to levitate his feet, or Foxy's beam's effects only lasting thirty seconds.

 

I didn't say Marco's Devil Fruit is an example of stamina drain. I said it might be. What I'm saying in my previous post is that there's no reason for you to treat him as an exception, if his ability is tied to stamina drain or has some "phoenix energy" that runs out. 

 

 

 

2) Yes I'm arguing based on an absence of evidence in the sense that nobody has outright come out and said my DF doesn't drain my stamina, but I feel that, that is still the stronger side as Oda appears to have called out Law and CC for having stamina drain in what appears to be an exception basis. 

 

I've already explained why I don't think absence of evidence is evidence of absence in this case. I'm not sure how to respond to this when you insist that your interpretation of it is still the stronger argument, because I've already objected to your reasoning and you're not addressing my objections.

 

 

 

There have been countless opportunities to explain that DFs drain your stamina, none have been taken, and this is a fairly big point to just bypass.

 

How big a point is it? Fights in OP rarely have stamina as a major deciding factor. (The only one I can remember off the top of my head is Rayleigh's fight with Kizaru.) I don't think it's comparable to intangibility and haki, because those are always among the most significant issues - if not the most significant - when someone fights a logia. And Petite has already adequately addressed this, in my opinion. 

 

 

 

Weaknesses of the DFs have been expanded on quite a few times (superiority, exploiting the element, Haki, water, salt, seastone)

 

And how many of these were explained before they started to matter? And how were they explained? Oda works by implication. We know elements can be exploited from three cases (Crocodile, Eneru and Monet). Oda didn't tell us the rules. He showed using a small number of examples. We know of "superiority" from one case (Ace vs Akainu), though I don't think I need to point out that we don't know how that relationship works (because it wasn't really explained). Now, we have two cases in which two Devil Fruit users have explicitly mentioned stamina issues. While not conclusive, I don't find anything inconsistent in the way things are explained, because Oda hands things to us piece by piece, over time.

 

Additionally, there is no reason whatsoever to give Caesar and only Caesar a finite amount "gas energy". That's one point you haven't addressed. Why Caesar, if not to imply a general rule about logias? How does his limit serve the story? What is the point of it? If I remember correctly, Caesar didn't show signs of tiredness when fighting Luffy, but extensive use of Gastille on the bridge in Dressrosa made him pant and then complain later.

 

In order to argue that your side is stronger, you need to at least indicate that it isn't likely that other fights are analogous to the Caesar case, that it isn't likely that DF users weren't actually taxed by the use of their abilities. You need to argue that [absence of evidence = absence of stamina drain] is more likely than [absence of evidence = no fights with stamina issues], even if you exclude Caesar and Law from the pool of evidence. In other words, is [Enel can produce an unlimited quantity of electricity] more probable than [the amount he produced so far didn't drain a significant portion of his stamina]. That's when absence of evidence becomes evidence of absence. :shrug:


Edited by Tale, 22 October 2014 - 12:07 PM.


#42 MattC302

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:40 PM

I've always just assumed, well before Law and Caesar's situations, that activated devil fruit powers use at least some amount of effort/energy/concentration. It just wouldn't make sense for me for devil fruit users, especially logias, to be able to make an endless supply of their element without it taking any effort. Of course, we have people like Ace who can fight for 5 days, so in a manga where most onscreen fights are not much longer than a chapter or two worth of panels and much less than a day long in story time, devil fruit stamina limits aren't likely to be a glaring factor. In a hypothetical EoS fight between Akainu and Luffy, Akainu is much more likely to succumb to his injuries before he becomes too tired to make more magma.

 

Even with the specifically mentioned examples of Law and Caesar, we still have Law making Rooms and doing named attacks after his fights on Punk Hazard just the day before Dressrosa, and fighting Doffy and Fujitora at the same time. Law's limit being mentioned might just be so that Oda can plausibly sideline him so that main character Luffy can finish off Doffy. And Caesar's limit was brought up while he was floating Law and Co. across the broken bridge, so I suspect Oda just specifically mentioned it so that nobody got it in their head that logias could just fly to Raftel effortlessly or to not undermine flying zoans or something like that :shrug:

 

So in other words, "devil fruit stamina" mostly won't be a factor, but I still think we should just assume it as an unstated truth. Especially since we have characters like Enel with his voltage limit and "ultimate attack". If he can go bigger and a higher voltage with no effort, he should have/would have done so. Same with Ace and his Entai. If he could have created more fire with no effort for his final attack against Blackbeard, that would have been the time to do it.


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#43 Sanji

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:44 PM

Law's stamina was probably replentished by Sanji's dish, unlike Caesar's i guess ? Which would explain Caesar complaining after what did not seem to be that much of an extensive use of his DF power on the bridge to Green Bit.


Edited by Sanji, 22 October 2014 - 12:44 PM.

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#44 Petite Fleur

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:24 PM


I'm sorry but I can't agree with this argument. Why are you assuming it was stamina and not control and/or imagination?

 

Yes, one of the easiest things to do is imagine yourself stronger. 3:

 

A lot of difficulty with control has to do with "more" not "how much" which is what we've seen. Which means their limitations are not based in limits to their imagination or control, no.


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#45 theonlygeezy

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 10:01 PM

Mihawk is underrated. I mean dude rides around the New World in a boat, alone #likeaboss. From now on, there is a new level between Admiral & Yonkou called Mihawk level.



#46 captain kidd

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 10:02 PM

you think mihawk is stronger then the emperors? lol that is a good one........


 
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#47 monstertrio

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 10:05 PM

you think mihawk is stronger then the emperors? lol that is a good one........

Why not?



#48 tenchu

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 10:33 PM

Mihawk is underrated. I mean dude rides around the New World in a boat, alone #likeaboss. From now on, there is a new level between Admiral & Yonkou called Mihawk level.

you mean the guy vista tied with?


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#49 theonlygeezy

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 10:39 PM

you mean the guy vista tied with?

 

Not only did Vista not tie with Mihawk, but just remember, Kizaru got kicked in the face by Marco.



#50 Furinji Saiga

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 10:40 PM

Not only did Vista not tie with Mihawk, but just remember, Kizaru got kicked in the face by Marco.

or better yet Kuzan got tied by fledgling Ace

 

dem war feats are so much fun.  :hurr: 


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#51 Sanji

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 10:50 PM

You shouldn't use Mihawk's best feat as point of reference. He caused 0 damage to Jozu with his strongest slash, was unable to kill Luffy despite being serious and apologizing to Shank's for what he was about to do, couldn't defeat Buggy with his own set of skills and had to use his own power against him. The war was full of inconsistencies so Mihawk managing to stall for a while against Vista might be one of those.


Edited by Sanji, 31 October 2014 - 10:50 PM.

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#52 Furinji Saiga

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 11:06 PM

You shouldn't use Mihawk's best feat as point of reference. He caused 0 damage to Jozu with his strongest slash, was unable to kill Luffy despite being serious and apologizing to Shank's for what he was about to do, couldn't defeat Buggy with his own set of skills and had to use his own power against him. The war was full of inconsistencies so Mihawk managing to stall for a while against Vista might be one of those.

I am quite interested now

 

Please point to me where it was it stated it was his strongest attack? *waits for inevitable "oh those fodder marines just know"*

And the strongest attack of as swordsman is in his air slash? news to me. 

 

oh and being serious against Luffy, yes this is the face of a man that is serious. dat effort. what a try hard.  :hurr: 

 

And being held back to the point where his air slash attacks are stopped by Mr 1, yet we have Zoro who can create air slashes that can cut steel like fruit.  :wacko: 

 

That war was nothing but inconsistency for Mihawk. 

 

But it seems to me from reading posts here and other forums those inconsistencies are used quite negatively against him, yet you see none of that for the Admirals who were actually trying in the war in comparison to Mihawk. 


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#53 theonlygeezy

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 11:23 PM

You shouldn't use Mihawk's best feat as point of reference. He caused 0 damage to Jozu with his strongest slash, was unable to kill Luffy despite being serious and apologizing to Shank's for what he was about to do, couldn't defeat Buggy with his own set of skills and had to use his own power against him. The war was full of inconsistencies so Mihawk managing to stall for a while against Vista might be one of those.

 

Does anybody really say this with a straight face?


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#54 Furinji Saiga

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 11:26 PM

Does anybody really say this with a straight face?

yeah killing Luffy, this is definitely going to happen in this manga.  :hurr: 


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#55 Sanji

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 11:26 PM

:lol:

 

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#56 Furinji Saiga

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 11:30 PM

:P

I'm bored, though it seems you are more so than I am. 

 

Like I always say, this shit always happens when there is no chapter.  :<_<:

See you next break...


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#57 Sanji

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 11:35 PM

:P

I'm bored, though it seems you are more so than I am. 

 

Like I always say, this shit always happens when there is no chapter.  :<_<:

See you next break...

 

Did you read Nanatsu no Taizai ? If not and you're bored as you say go read it ! I went through 100 chapters in 3 days it's pretty damn good and has that awesome bastard from my avatar. :aww:


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#58 Furinji Saiga

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 11:47 PM

Did you read Nanatsu no Taizai ? If not and you're bored as you say go read it ! I went through 100 chapters in 3 days it's pretty damn good and has that awesome bastard from my avatar. :aww:

Actually I am watching Fate Zero right now, my friend recently recommended it to me because of the fate stay/night anime that is going on right now , on episode 13, don't spoil anything!!!!!!

 

And then I also have Berserk(volume 29)  to catch up on, Matt will be angry with me if I do not finish it.  :unsure:

I will check  it when I have finish with those two.  :)

 

Edit: Marco is stronger than Sabo, just to get things going for this topic. 


Edited by Furinji Saiga, 31 October 2014 - 11:50 PM.

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#59 Sanji

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 11:50 PM

Actually I am watching Fate Zero right now, my friend recently recommended it to me because of the fate stay/night anime that is going on right now , on episode 13, don't spoil anything!!!!!!

 

And then I also have Berserk(volume 29)  to catch up on, Matt will be angry with me if I do not finish it.  :unsure:

I will check  it when I have finish with those two.  :)

 

Nice, Fate Zero is awesome i was even considering watching it again. I love the Rider Servant ( i think you don't know his name so not spoiling it for you  :P  ) from Fate Zero. :D


Edited by Sanji, 31 October 2014 - 11:50 PM.

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#60 ArSoNiSt JoE

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 12:01 AM

 

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