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[Discussion] Most Overrated/Underrated Characters (Part 24)


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#161 captain kidd

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 08:59 AM

Ya I mean to be fair we HAVE to count CC and hodi, neither of which would stand a prayer of a chance against moria.

I really want to do BM vs moria but I need to hold off until we see all BM's abilities.

You are 100% right moria wouldn't be effected at all by BM's life stealing attack. Not only is moria a true pirate but he was once the rival of kiadou, a man who fought with kiadou wouldn't be scared of BM.... no way no how.... moria would say the same thing to BM that he said to kuma "I know how your DF works, knock it off, it won't work on me"
 
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#162 capu

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 03:49 PM

Ok I get the president bowing would be shocking in its own way.
But why did Fuji do it all? Why did Fuji care who gets credit and why did he go against his boss to make sure credit went to the right place and why didn't Fuji do the job himself?
If it was admiral captain Kidd in that situation it would go like this
"Admiral dd is going crazy killing his own citizens!"
"Oh no!! I better go and kill DD then feed his body to the sharks so every time his family goes swimming there are sharks out there that can smell his blood!"
 

 

That being said the thing I still don't see is why Fuji acted in that way. Yes he wants the world to see the warlord system works, or in your words that the WG isn't perfect, either works, why did he insist luffy gets credit? Even in alabasta crocodile was defeated he was still revealed as a tratior and a huge blemish on the WG and smoker got a promotion out of it.

Unless...... are you telling me the marines stopping dd would prove the WG is competent? So Fuji purposefully let luffy take down DD to give all the credit away from the WG? Then that is the single most messed up thing I have ever even thought of someone doing..... no forget I said anything that makes so little sense it is beyond stupid.

Fuji "look the WG isn't perfect! Their warlords are killing people and a pirate had to stop the problem"
People with common sense "wait, didn't the WG send you to deal with DD?"
Fuji "yes and I didn't do anything because I wanted to prove the WG is incompetent"
Common sense "doesn't that just make you incompetent?"
Fuji "no that makes the WG incompetent for sending an incompetent admiral to deal with this problem"


Nothing makes sense about Fuji's refusal to fight and insistence on luffy taking credit. How does it make the WG look better if a marine took down dd vs a pirate taking down dd?

He could not have done that without messing up the message he wanted to send. He wanted that which happened at alabasta, where the marines were seen as the heros, while they infact were part of the problem by having allowed (k WG did) DD and Croc to become/remain shicki, no matter their crimes, not to happen again. He feared that once more the marines would be seen as the ones who set things right, that is infact a behaviour, which is within Fujis character, who values honor and wants to protect the innocent (compare to many marines like akainu, VA doberman etc), instead of protecting their very own faces.

 

Moreover in realisation of his aim to abolish the shicki it is far smarter not to dethrone the first shicki who does something, urself, otherwise ur very agenda might become known to others too soon, hindering u to reach ur goals!  

 

It is not to take away "fame" from the WG but to reach his goal of abolishing the shickisystem. Since in his eyes the shicki cause more harm than they do good, which is one of his most important aspects so far, that he actually wants the world to become better/safer, without using every means. Fuji may commit "necessary" sins in his eyes, but overall he has good intention and consciousness, which cant be said of other marines.


Edited by capu, 26 April 2017 - 03:53 PM.


#163 Saya

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 04:16 PM

Ya I mean to be fair we HAVE to count CC and hodi, neither of which would stand a prayer of a chance against moria.
I really want to do BM vs moria but I need to hold off until we see all BM's abilities.
You are 100% right moria wouldn't be effected at all by BM's life stealing attack. Not only is moria a true pirate but he was once the rival of kiadou, a man who fought with kiadou wouldn't be scared of BM.... no way no how.... moria would say the same thing to BM that he said to kuma "I know how your DF works, knock it off, it won't work on me"


Was this pre TS?

#164 Goddess Nike

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 04:28 PM

Which ones counted as major? Is Hody counted? If yes, I disagree.


Hody isn't post Punk Hazard.


 


Was this pre TS?


Yeah in Thriller Bark when Kuma was first introduced.
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#165 capu

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 04:40 PM

Which ones counted as major? Is Hody counted? If yes, I disagree. Also I don't know about BM but Doflamingo wouldn't beat Moria real quick. At least mid-diff.

 

 

 

Where did you get that? Moria didn't even flinch and told the SHs that a true pirate doesn't fear death...

 

 

Moria is, by feats, easily Yonkou Commander level and can be Top Yonkou Commander level. At the very least he can survive all the Top Yonkou Commanders whose arsenal we have seen a fair share of.

Post PH means after Punk Hazard. So no Hody was not counted. Seriously DD would need mid diff to defeat Moria, when all Jinbei needed to do was 1 hit to K.O. Moria  in such a way that he was a nonfactor for the rest of the game/war.

DD took on post TS Law and Luffy! Moria was defeated by preTS Luffy....u still compare them as mid-diff?

Luffy post TS at DR time likely was stronger than the entire preTS SHcrew with Luffy included, DD had to deal with someone else similarily strong as current Luffy!

Ergo mid-diff MAX!

 

That he said , still see context first. 

Yes he spoke to a fooder in his eyes, and yes luffy was exactly that back then, just not the extrem fodder as in normal citizin. Therefore it is commonplace to be a bit arrogant in front of those, despite others being far better than u at a thing, if u r better than the person that is actually the theme right now, u can afford to be cocky. Which essentially was what Moria did. 

There was no need for Moria to fear death in that situation in this eyes. He believed himself to be far superior and the SHs to be a minor problem. He even mocked Luffy by telling him that he too once was overconfident (http://mangaseeonlin...463-page-5.html), and got wrecked because of that, this exact same situation he now parallels to Luffy and the SHs, he views them as being overconfident and weak, as he once was.....therefore under that circumstance he is allowed to say he does not fear death, since for all he knew, after having grapped already 3 shadows (Sanji, Luffy, Zoro), without effort i might add, it truly seemed like the SHs were simply talk nothing much, so no need to fear for urself against them...Fear always gets bigger the more threatening the situation/opponent, i.e. i dont fear death in front of cats usually, but a lion jumping me is a different story, consequently, it is within reason not to fear the "weak", u fear strong ones, or at least those u deem stronger/more cunning than urself.

 

Highly doubtful! Why u guys cant understand that there is a huge gap between postTS SHs and preTS SHs, consequently the ones having been defeated by the fodder (=preTS SHs) dont matter in current postTS SH standard anymore.....

 

Simply the fact that Moria choose never to rely on his crew again and neither, if u r technical and dont regard a DFpower as ones own achievement, himself powerwise but rather uses tools in form of souls of powerful foes, is a reminder of what happened to him, and even if subconscious it still manifests his inferiorty complex since his defeat vs Kaidou, ergo it also represents his fear of death.

Despite his weakness to salt, which renders his DF useless he still cant instantly control the shadows, even though Sanjis shadow was stolen way before Luffys, Absalom says here that Sanjis zombie still retained his "individual will" (http://mangaseeonlin...63-page-13.html), consequently moria was unable to control  even a weakass preTS Sanji spirit, i mean everyone who will fight anyone important foes from this day fourth in an all out battle will have to fight a stronger willed persons than preTS Sanji, as such even nami will have to face stronger opponents than what moria had to , when he faced the SHs.

Nowhere in hell Moria ias able to use the shadow stolen from an commander in time, when he could not use Sanjis fast enough....neither preTS Luffys, he would die trying to hide from the stolen shadow which wont be enough since either she shadow himself kills Moria or the awakening commander will.


Edited by capu, 26 April 2017 - 04:48 PM.


#166 Fulmine

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 08:44 PM


Seriously DD would need mid diff to defeat Moria, when all Jinbei needed to do was 1 hit to K.O. Moria in such a way that he was a nonfactor for the rest of the game/war.

We never see Jinbe 1 hit KO Moria O__O Seriously you need to stop inventing manga. Oda didn't show anything after that page. I mean Luffy landed a Red Hawk on Doflamingo and Doflamingo's face is just like Moria's face when hit by Jinbe (blood spitting and all). Do you think Doflamingo was 1 hit KO by Gear2Luffy? No! Because we saw how the fight continued. But we didn't see the same for JinbevsMoria. So all we can say is Jinbe got an upper hand in the 1st exchange, that's all there is to it.

 

Also, again, wrong! Moria was perfectly fine 2 chapters later and started facing Curiel, WB's 10th Division's Commander. How the hell is that non-factor? Definitely not a major fight compared to Marco vs Kizaru or Jozu vs Aokiji but nothing non-factor about it...Moria also remained his fairly good shape when the war ended.

 

 

Not to mention, if DD can stomp Moria so easily, why the hell did he bring 3-4 Pacifista with him LOL?

 

 


Moria was defeated by preTS Luffy.

Who had 100 shadows injected into him, so NightmareLuffy to be exact, who can be stronger than CurrentLuffy (at least brute strength-wise) for all we know. Also Moria got in traumatic mode remembering his killed nakama so anything after that is not a true reflection of his power. He could have consumed much less shadows and still got the strength he wanted but he was so obssessed with showing Luffy the difference and ate more than he could manage.

 


That he said , still see context first.

Yes he spoke to a fooder in his eyes, and yes luffy was exactly that back then, just not the extrem fodder as in normal citizin. Therefore it is commonplace to be a bit arrogant in front of those, despite others being far better than u at a thing, if u r better than the person that is actually the theme right now, u can afford to be cocky. Which essentially was what Moria did.

There was no need for Moria to fear death in that situation in this eyes. He believed himself to be far superior and the SHs to be a minor problem. He even mocked Luffy by telling him that he too once was overconfident (http://mangaseeonlin...463-page-5.html), and got wrecked because of that, this exact same situation he now parallels to Luffy and the SHs, he views them as being overconfident and weak, as he once was.....therefore under that circumstance he is allowed to say he does not fear death, since for all he knew, after having grapped already 3 shadows (Sanji, Luffy, Zoro), without effort i might add, it truly seemed like the SHs were simply talk nothing much, so no need to fear for urself against them...Fear always gets bigger the more threatening the situation/opponent, i.e. i dont fear death in front of cats usually, but a lion jumping me is a different story, consequently, it is within reason not to fear the "weak", u fear strong ones, or at least those u deem stronger/more cunning than urself.

None of that matters. He just got beaten by NightmareLuffy, ergo his life could be in trouble. Also, if pre-TSLuffy can be scareless then why Moria can't be? That's not something reserved only for the protagonist (although it would manifest most clearly in him). Moria also used to fight Kaidou in New World. Finally, you're trying to reason why that line cannot be counted but you haven't actually provided a page where Moria fear death like you claimed.

 

 


Highly doubtful! Why u guys cant understand that there is a huge gap between postTS SHs and preTS SHs, consequently the ones having been defeated by the fodder (=preTS SHs) dont matter in current postTS SH standard anymore.....

Because there are special factors and you should reread One Piece more carefully to see those. Also, One Piece's themes and combat system (especially Haki).

 

Crocodile were defeated by AlabastaLuffy. So why the hell is he not fodder in MFWar where a bunch of New World fighters were presented and why is he still in good shape when the war ended (by good shape I mean not sustaining any major injuries. He only has the blood from Jozu's hit)? Why couldn't Jozu, a Top Yonkou Commander (who should be as strong as Cracker based on rank and your post-TS logic), 1 hit KO Crocodile?

 

People are underestimating Shichibukai far too much.

 

 


Simply the fact that Moria choose never to rely on his crew again and neither, if u r technical and dont regard a DFpower as ones own achievement, himself powerwise but rather uses tools in form of souls of powerful foes, is a reminder of what happened to him, and even if subconscious it still manifests his inferiorty complex since his defeat vs Kaidou, ergo it also represents his fear of death.

You're taking a leap in logic. I fail to see how inferiority complex + trust only in undead would logically follow by a conclusion that he fears death. That's like saying because elephant is big ergo milk is white. Completely irrelevant clauses...

 

The only thing that shows is Moria feel his old way is not sufficient and he changes. That's all. If you doesn't study for your final exam and start relying on cheating method, does that mean you fear death? No, more like you just want to success in a bad way.

 

 


Despite his weakness to salt, which renders his DF useless

No, it only renders an ability of his DF useless. Moria can still use Doppelman just fine...

 

 


he still cant instantly control the shadows, even though Sanjis shadow was stolen way before Luffys, Absalom says here that Sanjis zombie still retained his "individual will" (http://mangaseeonlin...63-page-13.html), consequently moria was unable to control even a weakass preTS Sanji spirit, i mean everyone who will fight anyone important foes from this day fourth in an all out battle will have to fight a stronger willed persons than preTS Sanji, as such even nami will have to face stronger opponents than what moria had to , when he faced the SHs.

I don't see how any of that matters to Moria's power level. You should realize by now that willpower and power level don't directly correlate. It may show potential but not the actual power level. 10 year-old Ace has CoC, is he stronger than Lucci at that point? So yeah, the SHs, especially the M3 are very strong willed, they aren't easily scared, so what? Has nothing to do with their pre-TS power level. You're just using that to undermine Moria.

 

 


Nowhere in hell Moria ias able to use the shadow stolen from an commander in time, when he could not use Sanjis fast enough....neither preTS Luffys, he would die trying to hide from the stolen shadow which wont be enough since either she shadow himself kills Moria or the awakening commander will.

He doesn't need to. Just steal them is enough. What the hell are you arguing?


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#167 capu

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 06:19 AM

1.) We never see Jinbe 1 hit KO Moria O__O Seriously you need to stop inventing manga. Oda didn't show anything after that page. I mean Luffy landed a Red Hawk on Doflamingo and Doflamingo's face is just like Moria's face when hit by Jinbe (blood spitting and all). Do you think Doflamingo was 1 hit KO by Gear2Luffy? No! Because we saw how the fight continued. But we didn't see the same for JinbevsMoria. So all we can say is Jinbe got an upper hand in the 1st exchange, that's all there is to it.

Also, again, wrong! Moria was perfectly fine 2 chapters later and started facing Curiel, WB's 10th Division's Commander. How the hell is that non-factor? Definitely not a major fight compared to Marco vs Kizaru or Jozu vs Aokiji but nothing non-factor about it...Moria also remained his fairly good shape when the war ended.

Not to mention, if DD can stomp Moria so easily, why the hell did he bring 3-4 Pacifista with him LOL?

 

2.) Who had 100 shadows injected into him, so NightmareLuffy to be exact, who can be stronger than CurrentLuffy (at least brute strength-wise) for all we know. Also Moria got in traumatic mode remembering his killed nakama so anything after that is not a true reflection of his power. He could have consumed much less shadows and still got the strength he wanted but he was so obssessed with showing Luffy the difference and ate more than he could manage.

None of that matters. He just got beaten by NightmareLuffy, ergo his life could be in trouble. Also, if pre-TSLuffy can be scareless then why Moria can't be? That's not something reserved only for the protagonist (although it would manifest most clearly in him). Moria also used to fight Kaidou in New World. Finally, you're trying to reason why that line cannot be counted but you haven't actually provided a page where Moria fear death like you claimed.

 

3.) Because there are special factors and you should reread One Piece more carefully to see those. Also, One Piece's themes and combat system (especially Haki).

 

4.)Crocodile were defeated by AlabastaLuffy. So why the hell is he not fodder in MFWar where a bunch of New World fighters were presented and why is he still in good shape when the war ended (by good shape I mean not sustaining any major injuries. He only has the blood from Jozu's hit)? Why couldn't Jozu, a Top Yonkou Commander (who should be as strong as Cracker based on rank and your post-TS logic), 1 hit KO Crocodile?

 

5.) People are underestimating Shichibukai far too much.

 

6.) You're taking a leap in logic. I fail to see how inferiority complex + trust only in undead would logically follow by a conclusion that he fears death. That's like saying because elephant is big ergo milk is white. Completely irrelevant clauses...

 

The only thing that shows is Moria feel his old way is not sufficient and he changes. That's all. If you doesn't study for your final exam and start relying on cheating method, does that mean you fear death? No, more like you just want to success in a bad way.

 

7.) No, it only renders an ability of his DF useless. Moria can still use Doppelman just fine...

 

8.) I don't see how any of that matters to Moria's power level. You should realize by now that willpower and power level don't directly correlate. It may show potential but not the actual power level. 10 year-old Ace has CoC, is he stronger than Lucci at that point? So yeah, the SHs, especially the M3 are very strong willed, they aren't easily scared, so what? Has nothing to do with their pre-TS power level. You're just using that to undermine Moria.

 

 

 

 

He doesn't need to. Just steal them is enough. What the hell are you arguing?

1.) Lol Moria was a factor for u , since he was able to fight the 10th commander of WB crew, which equals what in ur standard? I mean even Marco u claim u be weak , like 50-60 % of an admiral (max?) (since u delibarately speak about the WB commanders uselessness in the war, as such by ur own standard they cant be anywhere near 75%, for that would be a high diff battle already, not extreme diff , but no joke either), that would make the 10th commander like....postTS Nami lvl according to ur own standard? I mean u cant have it both ways, one way is always downgrading the WB crew the other is taking them for ur argumentation that he was so important that Moria fought him and that that is a feat for u....Such behavior is called double standard.....U urself u r the one that always downgrades the entire WB crew.......now u use them as back up when it suits u....

Moreover there is a big difference if one is shown to be able to get shadows until a certain time (jinbei interference) and to have impact on several occasions before, yet after that one, not really being important anymore.....

And no once more u dont remember the manga.... Here:http://mangaseeonlin...59-page-11.html it can be seen that Morias eyes have the typical white shape which Oda sometimes/usually uses when someone blacks out! Moreover here Moria claims that he will take Jinbeis shadow http://mangaseeonlin...59-page-10.html and on the next page he gets beaten by 1 hit.....wow what a feat for Moria.....Same as in the discussion i had at a different Topic one should understand the message here....which is clear superiority on jinbeis side compared to Moria and since Moria was not taken off guard in any way that manifests a clear powerdifference, since equals dont brush each other off like that.

What u mean with DD would be able to 1hit Ko Luffy? Which luffy u r talking about here preTS or DR Luffy? Ahh DR Luffy, well i already told u many times that i consider preTS to be <<< than post TS powerlvl so,.... understood?

We saw enough that we can conclude that Moria is nowhere near Jinbei, equals dont brush each other of with 1 punch, they fight for a prolonged time and Moria had full intend of getting Jinbei shadow, which in  turn means he would have went after him to get it, sadly he had to realise after 1 punch that he was no match for Jinbei and that he from now on better once more focusses fodder and get their shadow instead of truly highclassfighters shadows, whom would kill him while trying....how do u not see that? Moria did not engage a single person of interest, after getting his ass handed by Jinbei!!! 

Lol at DD needed Pacifista....U dont get DDs character? He lets others do the job for as long as he does not need to interfere....he certainly was laughing like wild realising moria to be so weak that 3-4 pacifista r enough to beat him......Moreover yet again a clear superiority is shown here, which u choose to disregard for whatever reasoning again.....that if the fact that post TS Luffy, Zoro, Sanji can 1hitKO any pacifista!!!! For Moria to be defeated by 3-4Pacifista while DD not having a single wound once more, and not taking this seriously as he did vs the end against luffy, shows how weak Moria is compared to NW standard......sadly u because u like a character , much like with Enel boost him to lvls he is clear not to have reached.....ya well what can i do instead of telling u.....DD just took the Pacifista not to get his hands dirty, knowing they would suffice to take down moria..... he even specifically states that Moria is too weak to be shicki!!!!!!!!How dont u understand what that implies?  http://mangaseeonlin...81-page-17.html

 

 

2.) First off so untrue! Go reread! It was gearLuffy who defeated Moria, nightmare Luffy defeated Oz! Big difference, so ur argument is actually once more useless, and not backing up ur stand in any way.....

So i have to take ur sentence, none of that matters, as one of ur characterization to either disregard things u cant counter, or just that u cant read, like u constantly claim others to be unable to........

Its been years since his clash with Kaidou. There are words for people who cant suck it up like a man, its crybaby, or weakling......? 

To which Zoro already said from start Moria already lost the battle, after taking in the shadows....its a beginners mistake.....who we r to blame if not Moria himself for being stupid/weak? Once more ur argument does not help u in  any way.....

I mean yes u r right Moria was defeated just like the blowfish of FI was.......by being very very dumb......let me make it clear, that aint an upside hyping but rather a downside dehyping the charatcer.....

Well i gave u reasoining, and once more u cant even counter my arguments.....just disregard them , then shift the discussion ...... way to go......

here is the manga page after nightmare luffy defeated Oz with Moria inside (notice the white eyes!, and remember both oz and moria get up again afterwards) http://mangaseeonlin...79-page-19.html here just one more chapter later moria gets up, way before shadow asgard and the end of the battle were luffy defeats moria, nighmareluffy happened even before Oz gets taken down for good, for he too gets up after this one......u mixed that up a bit did u not (pls dont tell anyone to read the manga anymore pls...i just feel the need to show u form time to time that u should heed to ur own advise, up to now it is sadly to no avail....)  

Here Oz actually gets taken down by SH crew and Luffy without shadows(moria still unconscious, as can be seen at the beginning of this chapter) http://mangaseeonlin...80-page-19.html  again the chapter after that Moria gets up,....http://mangaseeonlin...481-page-6.html

 

Moria used to fight? does that not imply on different occasions? which would make it wrong they only clashed once for all we know so far and moria got everyone exept himself killed, no equals here... just one far stronger and one being weak.....

 

Moreover Moria was in ideal surroundings, already having numerous shadows at his disposal, which he used to boost his overall strength, yet Jinbei was in unfavorable conditions, with being on land, yet still Jinbei turned out the winner of the match......what does that tell u? 

 

i chose not to give reasoning / proof that moria is fearing death? k let me show u a passage again:

my previous post:

"Simply the fact that Moria choose never to rely on his crew again and neither, if u r technical and dont regard a DFpower as ones own achievement, himself powerwise but rather uses tools in form of souls of powerful foes, is a reminder of what happened to him, and even if subconscious it still manifests his inferiorty complex since his defeat vs Kaidou, ergo it also represents his fear of death." But i give u i cant find a page were he says: "i fear death" .... but i am capable to read between the lines----not everyone is.....

And let me remind u that claim was going in conjunction with the discussion that BMs fruit is more powerful than shadow fruit simply based on the fact that people tend to rather fear death then someone specific....

If someone far more powerful than urself threatens u it is natural u feel fear....there is no need to even discuss this....If the president of russia threathens to kill me as a person i fear for my life, if a yonkou threathens to do everything in his power to kill u, u except if u r yonkou or admiral/highlvl shicki urself, u feel fear as well......Fear in generel is an ability every human has, Oda chose for plots sake to install Jinbei of being free of fear, the m3 of the SHs might all be, but they r the exception among exceptions whom will be the PKs crew, ergo better than the rest!, for them to have character traits even the most selected few of strongest caliber wont even have, is natural in order to reach their goals.....thus plot armor, u cant believe that every commander lvl fighter does not fear death simply, because u like the idea, and because as of now 1 person was shown to be immune to certain DF effects.....

 

 

3.) Dont really know what u r aiming at here? Any sense behind that claim? Ahh i see i get it...what? lol u just underlined ur own stand which is.....well not start talking about it thouroughly, not even needed. Just this should suffice:

I should reread Haki since i claim that the former enemies (preTS, not MFwar one like admirals/yonkou) r fodder to NW enemies, yet u say Haki is important. Then tell me where r the people who r even capable of useing haki? In paradise or in NW? which one was pre TS, which one was post TS, get the picture.......?????? In the war Haki was already established to exist and to be used, just uncoloured...(jozu hitting croc, garp marco, kizaru<--> marco, marco-->akainu, WB-->akainu), yet Moria back then showed nothing to be able to use haki.....u think he is able to? on what grounds u base this claim? Pls go reread and show me were my sentences r wrong, before u make untrue statements!

I said: "Highly doubtful! Why u guys cant understand that there is a huge gap between postTS SHs and preTS SHs, consequently the ones having been defeated by the fodder (=preTS SHs) dont matter in current postTS SH standard anymore....."

I answered to that becuase someone specific (u?) claimed that Moria would be able to fight commanders, which i called BS, since Jinbei who is below or equal to commanders, was able to "oneshot" moria, even though the surroundings/circumstances were very unfavorable for him .Moreover i answered to ur ....statement....by saying how so? Moria was defeated by preTS Shs, who r far beneath the current SH.....he fought hakiless preTS Sh fodder....not the having trained under Iva, Ray-san, Mihawk, SHs who have significantly risen from fodder lvl, to far above Moria lvl......I mean sinply  the fact that Zoro, Sanji, Luffy one shot a pasicifsta , while the entire team was needed to get over 1 preTS, shows, since 1shots r far harder, that each of the individuals of the M3 is already above the entire preTS SH crew.....yet u claim Moria to be a factor.........

 

4.) Crocodile was defeated by a way weaker luffy than moria i give u that, yet still the huge difference is, that unlike Moria Croc was in ID where he as lvl6 inmate has boosted his physical (perhaps even mental-->haki but that is assumption) stats immensely, as can be seen in the war were he took several hits like the one from jozu without being truly affected, whereas once upon a time in alabasta luffys hits/battle was enough to take him down. Perhaps u see it differently, and i would understand, since i cant prove my stand, which is that current luffy in each and every mode is exponentially stronger when compared to luffy at alabasta , same with TB Luffy in all modes when comparing preTS to post TS, just the amount is different....and which is also the standi have that IDs treatment boosts one physical stats, we know they tortured jinbei, it is likely in my eyes they tortured Croc as well, thus upping his physical (mental?) stats.    

Check previous posts, of mine, i always considered Croc to be fooder before MF/before ID (and i dont see him being able to stand to Zoro or Sanji anymore), same with Enel, i dont consider him weak because he has too few abilities, or does not know how to use them, Enel was very intelligent, very versatile, with an awesome DF, used to augment his very own CoO. One of the best portrayed characters in generel, well balanced! Granted i dislike his godcomplex, but he was the ultimate weapon of the skies so far, an unquestioned force of his realm, just like the yonkous are in the NW......Yet the thing i have tried to tell u on numerous occasions by now is, that since he was defeated by preTS, skypiaLuffy, whos poweroutput/punches/hits is laughable when compared to current postTS standard, he is weak overall. Since so many haki users in the NW would be able to defeat him, since Enel aint tanky/ able to endure much. And NW fighters, at least some highclass, r sure to have fought well CoO adjucated people. I mean Katakuri seems to be a commander known for that trait, u think he would be unable to fight/connect hits to Enel? 1 hit would mean certain defeat, the way Enel was presented not to be able to take skypia luffy hits.....since katakuri is logia too, the range he should be able to cover should be immense, and since he probably can tell from time to time where enel is going to appear, he can act accordingly to connect the hit, ergo enel defeated. Same should be possible with a lot of character with far weaker CoO than Katakuris....

Not that i want to discuss Enel, its just that i thought that u and @captain kidd had already gotten why i deem many preTS (hakiless) characters, even though i totally like some of them (Croc, CP9, even moria to a degree, whom i even hoped to join after the war/TS, Jinbei is better in my opinion though, since his water skills r the weakness to so many DFs presented, that he boosts the overall SH strength by a lot, also that certainly makes the SHs one of the most effective/dangerous crews when it comes to seabattles in generel (jinbei, like Zoro and Sanji ~ Franky+ Robin+ Usoop+ Nami+ CHopper+ Brook)), to be far weaker than u 2 do. Sry to u 2 i thought  i had made this very clear when we were discussing Enel and Moria on previous occasions, my bad.

Also i nowhere stated that i consider current croc or MF war Croc to be a highlvl fighter nor a fodder (alabasta time he was fodder imo) did i? So i dont see where ur going with this. Jozu was not able to 1hitKO croc since croc has a huge boost physically (mayhaps also mentally) since punishement in ID, therefore he had grown significantly more tanky/endurable. Moreover he finally got back his drive to go to the NW, which represents, his personal growth in my eyes. We already talked about this months (perhaps even longer?) ago Fulmine, u posed a similar question.....i answered just like today.... i still dont know what ur stand on this was, since u did not answer to it iirc.

 

5.) In generel i agree, DD was not only the person himself, but also the backup of the crew (and no matter what i still consider pica and violas fruit to be exremely useful in battle, i mean one can do something like the walls the marines used, seperating the enemy, at least for some time, the other can give u explicit knowledge as from where the enemey comes from, granting u the time the do strategy, sugars was useful in generel, not so much during battle though) but also the connections he had to the CDs and the yonkou as well as the island he had under his absolute control

Moria is the same he would be a force to be reckoned with had things gone differently. His shadows, and if given the needed amount of time as well as strong bodies to use for the zombies, were a force to be reckoned with, sadly he did not get, for whatever reasons, the needed powerful shadows, and with exclusion of oz, neither did he get the strong bodies (well the samurai was a strong/special body, but the only one, next to Oz iirc).

Mihawk was said to be comparable to Shanks, who is yonkou now.

Weevil is said to be near WB in his youth.

Buggy, every rule has an exeption ( :P ) .

Croc was logia with instant kill ability, yet a lot of them, were no physicalfighters/tanks, with very weak tankyness/ durability/ endurance, which lead to them (Moria, Croc, Buggy) not to be as strong as they should/could have been. Moreover i still see the fact of who was where to be a significant hint as to powerlvls. Weevil, DD, Mihawk (dont know whether island is in NW, but at it is grandline, and mihawk defeated don kreig on their way (or in?) to NW) = NW-->stongest, Boa, Moria, Jinbei near the Redline -->midteam, Buggy, Croc (back at alabasta, again MF war croc would be mid team, stronger than moria , most likely weaker than DD and Jinbei (since water ability is just this important/useful to me generally speaking, croc could be overall stronger by now though, depending on what he did since TS)) early stage of Grandline --->weakest.  

 

6.) Shit just saw u writing that...hmh somehow answered in previous points but i will try, in case i made it unclear as to which part was meant to ur statement. 

Yes it is a leap, not logic wise though, since it is a statement that came out of logical assumptions/train of thoughts/variables put together to form a logical conclusion, dont does not have to be true though. Still i see it within reason. Moria did not go to florian trianlge simply because he felt like it, he moved there for safety purposes, to regain his strength and build up a force, which would make a difference, at which he failed though. He went there for securtity purposes as well, he only needed securitty/safety, because he understood that he is nowhere near the upper echelons of the NW, as such he went to florian trianlge for safety, knowing that is it highly unlikely a highcaliber fighter will come to disturb him there, since it was still within paradise. Going there for safety purposes is what makes me believe he went there out of fear, since u dont need safety against somehting u dont have to fear, somehting that does not affect u/has no impact on u. As such i still claim that he fears the yonkous themselfs, and consequently he also fears death by their hand. But yes i give u and @captain kidd that this might not be the case and he simply went their for building up reasons, which still raises the question as to what for though, to which the answer still would be, to not get annihilated at the hands of a yonkou again.....ergo fear of them... 

 

7.) The shadows get purified by salt, which is making the entire fruit far less useful than without that downside, which was what i was actually trying to say, yet exaggerated a bit too much it seems...but keep in mind that Morias entire plan to retake his stand in NW/be significant, lies within the concept of getting strong shadows, if those shadows cant be used because of purification they , and consequently morias fruit and its main upside battle ability becomes rendered pretty much useless....

 

 8.) I dont intend to undermine him, neither is that my main aim, i am telling u major weaknesses of his fruit in order to make u understand, why all the upside of his fruit wont be able to help him in battle vs strong opponents......he was not able to take jinbeis shadow even though he specifically said he would do exactly that, ergo it is highly likely he cant control the shadows of strong opponents (if not given the needed time), since the only strong opponent he faced, "1 shotted him" (notice the white eyes i linked earlier, he had those when nightmare luffy got oz to his knees, and when jinbei defeted him in MF, ergo it aint a simply leap in logic, its an analysis based on instances shown by manga pages, and whats more shown by the exact same character!), and the only other time he was able to take shadows he was not even able to control them for a long period of time! If he cant control Sanji,Zoro,Luffy preTS shadows, how u expect him to control the ones of commanders, u fail to elaborate on that, i still say even the rampaging commander shadows kill moria pretty fast, ergo that very skill aint of use in a battle vs strong opponents/commanders!!


Edited by capu, 27 April 2017 - 06:23 AM.


#168 captain kidd

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 08:16 AM

He could not have done that without messing up the message he wanted to send. He wanted that which happened at alabasta, where the marines were seen as the heros, while they infact were part of the problem by having allowed (k WG did) DD and Croc to become/remain shicki, no matter their crimes, not to happen again. He feared that once more the marines would be seen as the ones who set things right, that is infact a behaviour, which is within Fujis character, who values honor and wants to protect the innocent (compare to many marines like akainu, VA doberman etc), instead of protecting their very own faces.

Moreover in realisation of his aim to abolish the shicki it is far smarter not to dethrone the first shicki who does something, urself, otherwise ur very agenda might become known to others too soon, hindering u to reach ur goals!

It is not to take away "fame" from the WG but to reach his goal of abolishing the shickisystem. Since in his eyes the shicki cause more harm than they do good, which is one of his most important aspects so far, that he actually wants the world to become better/safer, without using every means. Fuji may commit "necessary" sins in his eyes, but overall he has good intention and consciousness, which cant be said of other marines.


That can't be said of the other maines? I think that can be said about every marine.
The WG is curroupt but for the most part the mariners are doing good. Even akainu with his extreme views only wants to destroy the possibility of evil existing, and pirates are obviously many times worse the the marines.
 
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#169 Tale

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 12:07 PM

@capu @Fulmine

 

Moria could still have been a factor in the war even if you think of him as weak enough to be defeated by pre-TS Luffy. The first thing he did when fighting Jimbei was to use Shadows Asgard to make himself stronger. With so people in the in the war, there were plenty of shadows for him to steal and use to boost himself to a level where he could fight a commander even after he was punched by Jimbei. 


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#170 capu

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 04:05 PM

That can't be said of the other maines? I think that can be said about every marine.
The WG is curroupt but for the most part the mariners are doing good. Even akainu with his extreme views only wants to destroy the possibility of evil existing, and pirates are obviously many times worse the the marines.

Well Akainu is someone who uses all means necessary, which infact makes him a bad person...so no he does not  follow ideals, he does not even understand justice, his justice simply is the one with power gots to say what is right or wrong, which aint justice at all......and while he may truly want the world to become better in his eyes, what he deems better (equals totalitarism) aint better from our modern culture point of view (democracy based), except perhaps if ur still a fanatic moslem (not that all r like that, just far too much sadly.....)

Moreover akainu knows no mercy, he killed soldiers simply to prove a point, and while they were soldiers, thus it is understandable, the same cant be said for oharas normal/not scolar citizins....he just ordered to needslessly murder them without trial....so no akanu aint a good guy in my book, and with him neither r some VA who have veen shown not to care about the life of even their allies (fellow marines) but rather to cause more bloodshed, because of that it is absolutely clear that the marines aint the ones to follow, since a far too high number among them is bloodthirsty, cruel etc etc. 


Edited by capu, 27 April 2017 - 04:09 PM.


#171 captain kidd

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:36 AM

Darn I just defended akainu but I will do it again.

1st- akainu killing soldiers. Every time I say I don't want to make a long post about this I do because I really want to convey how selfish a soldier has to be to leave his battle buddies behind, who trust him with all their lives, because he feels his life is more important.
Besides, it worked. When coby saw akainu's stance on desertion he imiditally turned around and headed back to the battle field.

2nd- bombing civilians. Ok this is not a good thing to do by any stretch of the imagination, but it doesn't make him a criminal beyond morale. Akainu said his stance very clearly, if even a single scholar was on that ship they would get the ancient weapons and end the world. Not a reasonable stance but half the blame rests on professor clover and the citizens who tolerated his treasonous behavior. Personally I think it is stupid to make laws against sudying the past, and I believe he WG should of collected all ancient weapons long ago and locked them up, but Ruies are rules.

Also he doesn't use all means necessary, the WG banned chemical weapons, CC thought akainu would be looking for some and akainu didn't.




And the real genius of akainu is shown on the battle field. The man is an amazing soldier.
- he insured none of his solders would desert
- he sewed chaos in WB's ranks by tricking spider squad
- he "tricked" ace into running into his fist
- he inspired his soldiers to fight far beyond when they should of stopped (ya he probably shouldn't of but a good leader inspires and he did that)
- he survived an island shattering punch and returned to lead the charge for his men
-he jumped to defend the island when WB threatened to break it (that sense of duty is admirable)
-and of course as I said above, he lead the charge the entire time. He could of been like aokiji and kizaru who did the minimum, or he could be like garp and sengoku who lead from the rear, but he was a hero who stood in front of his soldiers and lead them into battle.

So akainu may be controversial but his intentions have always been clear, the man only wants peace.

And "absolute justice" is nearly the same exact thing as "zero tolerance policing" which is a policing method largely responsible for the massive drop in crime in NYC. So akainu is actually operating on one of the most efficient policing (justice) models we have ever seen.

Edited by captain kidd, 28 April 2017 - 07:37 AM.

 
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#172 Fulmine

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 08:58 AM


1.) Lol Moria was a factor for u , since he was able to fight the 10th commander of WB crew, which equals what in ur standard?

Not mine. In-verse One Piece standard. Which means Moria is New World-level fighter. Moreover a Yonkou's top 16 fighter level. Not non-factor by any mean. Unless your standard is anyone not Yonkou or Admiral is non-factor? Okay, that's super high standard but I can understand. From now on let's use that. So don't ever challenge me if I say Marco, Jozu, Cracker etc. are non-factor, okay?

 

 


I mean even Marco u claim u be weak

I never claim that. What I said is Marco is weak compared to Yonkiral.

 

 


(since u delibarately speak about the WB commanders uselessness in the war, as such by ur own standard they cant be anywhere near 75%, for that would be a high diff battle already, not extreme diff , but no joke either), that would make the 10th commander like....postTS Nami lvl according to ur own standard?

I seriously have no idea how you came to to those numbers and that Nami comparison...HOW?

 

 


I mean u cant have it both ways, one way is always downgrading the WB crew the other is taking them for ur argumentation that he was so important that Moria fought him and that that is a feat for u....Such behavior is called double standard.....U urself u r the one that always downgrades the entire WB crew.......now u use them as back up when it suits u....

I'm not downgrading WB pirates. I'm stating what I think they are.

 

And I'm arguing two different things in these two cases so it's not double standard. Learn to read and understand my argument first before accusing.

Example: If I have to compare him to Pele/Maradonna/Messi/Ronaldo I'd call Mario Gotze, even at his peak, a much inferior football player. But if you ask me is he a good player, famous around the world, my answer is absolutely YES. Are those two lines double standard or having it both ways? NO! Because they answer different questions.

 

So similarly, compared to Admirals and WB I think Marco, Jozu, Vista, Cracker etc. are much weaker. But I never said they are weak overall. I actually have said many times that calling them weak doesn't mean they aren't still very strong pirates compared to the rest of the world. And I have also said many times that Vice Admirals are only fodders to guys like Sabo or above but they are still very strong in the grand schems of things.

 

 

So basically I think guys like Curiel is shit to Admirals or Sabo or Gear4Luffy but he should still be a very strong pirate, a monster to most fighters around the world, same way a bunch of guys of Big Mom pirates are called monsters by Yonji or Vito. Ergo if Moria could fight him that means by no way Moria is non-factor. Do you think Martio Gotze at his peak a completely useless football player who is non-factor to the football world? You shouldn't. If you do you need to check your head. But well, maybe your standard is too high.

 

 

 


And no once more u dont remember the manga.... Here:http://mangaseeonlin...59-page-11.html it can be seen that Morias eyes have the typical white shape which Oda sometimes/usually uses when someone blacks out! Moreover here Moria claims that he will take Jinbeis shadow http://mangaseeonlin...59-page-10.html and on the next page he gets beaten by 1 hit.....wow what a feat for Moria.....Same as in the discussion i had at a different Topic one should understand the message here....which is clear superiority on jinbeis side compared to Moria and since Moria was not taken off guard in any way that manifests a clear powerdifference, since equals dont brush each other off like that.

And once more you're embarassing yourself by showing you don't read the manga or don't remember it by likes to accuse people of the deed. Read Magellan vs Luffy and tell me how Magellan had that white shape and he still fought no problem in the next page.

 

 

That's not brush. Because we never see what happened after that. And Luffy hurt Lucci like that and yet they are nearly equal.

 

 


What u mean with DD would be able to 1hit Ko Luffy?

 

Which luffy u r talking about here preTS or DR Luffy? Ahh DR Luffy, well i already told u many times that i consider preTS to be <<< than post TS powerlvl so,.... understood?

I didn't say that. I said ''was 1 hit KO''. Passive, not active...

 

Do you actually understand what you read? Go learn English! Post-TS or pre-TS doesn't matter to my point. What I'm trying to show you is the similarity of the two cases, which is one person got hit and spit blood. And in one case you can see he continued to fight no problem. Moria could have done that for all we know because we never see what happened after that

 

 

 


they fight for a prolonged time

We only saw them exchange 1 hit and you call that prolonged? O__o

 

 


Lol at DD needed Pacifista....U dont get DDs character? He lets others do the job for as long as he does not need to interfere....he certainly was laughing like wild realising moria to be so weak that 3-4 pacifista r enough to beat him......Moreover yet again a clear superiority is shown here, which u choose to disregard for whatever reasoning again.....that if the fact that post TS Luffy, Zoro, Sanji can 1hitKO any pacifista!!!! For Moria to be defeated by 3-4Pacifista while DD not having a single wound once more, and not taking this seriously as he did vs the end against luffy, shows how weak Moria is compared to NW standard......sadly u because u like a character , much like with Enel boost him to lvls he is clear not to have reached.....ya well what can i do instead of telling u.....DD just took the Pacifista not to get his hands dirty, knowing they would suffice to take down moria..... he even specifically states that Moria is too weak to be shicki!!!!!!!!How dont u understand what that implies? http://mangaseeonlin...81-page-17.html

I get it more than a guy who clearly didn't read or read but doesn't understand like you. DD's character is he would troll and control the person like he did Bellamy's right-hand man, like he did Atmos, like he did Viola etc. And if he's so much more powerful than Moria he would have done that. But no, he brought 3-4 Pacifista with him LOL

 

I don't disregard them. I know them full well and still say what I am saying. You clearly don't read. Moria was defeated by 4 Pacifistas? Evidence DD didn't do a thing? Where did you see the whole of that fight? In your dream? Also, yes, DD said Moria is too weak for Shichibukai. So? That doesn't mean he's suddenly non-factor scrub. Not to mention it can just be that DD was being a jerk.

 

 

 


2.) First off so untrue! Go reread! It was gearLuffy who defeated Moria, nightmare Luffy defeated Oz! Big difference, so ur argument is actually once more useless, and not backing up ur stand in any way.....

Good to know you still didn't read! or you're blind because you don't see NightmareLuffy hitting Moria LOL
 

 


So i have to take ur sentence, none of that matters, as one of ur characterization to either disregard things u cant counter, or just that u cant read, like u constantly claim others to be unable to........

Nice to see how you project your ''qualities'' on others.

 

 


Its been years since his clash with Kaidou.

So? They fought in New World regardless.

 

 


There are words for people who cant suck it up like a man, its crybaby, or weakling......?

For people who don't fear death? Yeah, as always you leap to conclusion that suits you. You're inventing things. Because you're prejudiced so you can only interpret things in that way and when you lose in terms of logic, you claim people (me) to be biased. Sadly ad hominem doesn't make your stupid argument right

 

 

 


To which Zoro already said from start Moria already lost the battle, after taking in the shadows....its a beginners mistake.....who we r to blame if not Moria himself for being stupid/weak? Once more ur argument does not help u in any way.....

I mean yes u r right Moria was defeated just like the blowfish of FI was.......by being very very dumb......let me make it clear, that aint an upside hyping but rather a downside dehyping the charatcer.....

Wadatsumi isn't traumatic LOL

 

 


Well i gave u reasoining, and once more u cant even counter my arguments.....just disregard them , then shift the discussion ...... way to go......

here is the manga page after nightmare luffy defeated Oz with Moria inside (notice the white eyes!, and remember both oz and moria get up again afterwards) http://mangaseeonlin...79-page-19.html here just one more chapter later moria gets up, way before shadow asgard and the end of the battle were luffy defeats moria, nighmareluffy happened even before Oz gets taken down for good, for he too gets up after this one......u mixed that up a bit did u not (pls dont tell anyone to read the manga anymore pls...i just feel the need to show u form time to time that u should heed to ur own advise, up to now it is sadly to no avail....)

Funny how you don't read what happened before that to see Nightmareluffy punched Moria several times. Good to see you purposely dodge the page that proves you wrong. heed your own advice and please stop being stupid!

 

 


Here Oz actually gets taken down by SH crew and Luffy without shadows(moria still unconscious, as can be seen at the beginning of this chapter) http://mangaseeonlin...80-page-19.html again the chapter after that Moria gets up,....http://mangaseeonlin...481-page-6.html

It was you who claimed NightmareLuffy beat Oz, not me LOL


nightmare Luffy defeated Oz

But sure, keep mixing up what I said and what you said and deluding yourself into thinking you're right and I'm just a biased guy who boosts his favorite character.

 

 


Moria used to fight? does that not imply on different occasions? which would make it wrong they only clashed once for all we know so far and moria got everyone exept himself killed, no equals here... just one far stronger and one being weak.....

Except that the context clearly means they are rivals, not just one-time opponents.

Also Moria's crew being dead doesn't mean Moria is weaker. It may have been Kaidou's crew is much stronger or Kaidou used dirty means.

 

 


Moreover Moria was in ideal surroundings, already having numerous shadows at his disposal, which he used to boost his overall strength, yet Jinbei was in unfavorable conditions, with being on land, yet still Jinbei turned out the winner of the match......what does that tell u?

Jinbe wasn't the winner of the match. We never see how that fight ended. Stop the lie!

 

And Jinbe being on land doesn't change anything. He wasn't on land when fought Akainu either. What's your point? Say, if Jinbe is in water and Moria is, too, then Moria would be drown because he's a DF user. You can never get it right unless Moria is on land and Jinbe is underwater but the fight would happen in a very limited way.

So Jinbe being on land is irrelevant. When we talk about his power level, we talk about his on-land version anw

 

 


"Simply the fact that Moria choose never to rely on his crew again and neither, if u r technical and dont regard a DFpower as ones own achievement, himself powerwise but rather uses tools in form of souls of powerful foes, is a reminder of what happened to him, and even if subconscious it still manifests his inferiorty complex since his defeat vs Kaidou, ergo it also represents his fear of death." But i give u i cant find a page were he says: "i fear death" .... but i am capable to read between the lines----not everyone is.....

To which I answered


You're taking a leap in logic. I fail to see how inferiority complex + trust only in undead would logically follow by a conclusion that he fears death. That's like saying because elephant is big ergo milk is white. Completely irrelevant clauses...



The only thing that shows is Moria feel his old way is not sufficient and he changes. That's all. If you doesn't study for your final exam and start relying on cheating method, does that mean you fear death? No, more like you just want to success in a bad way.

And you have no counter and choose to dodge and shift discussion. Way to go! Sadly you don't heed your own advice.

 

 


If someone far more powerful than urself threatens u it is natural u feel fear....there is no need to even discuss this....If the president of russia threathens to kill me as a person i fear for my life, if a yonkou threathens to do everything in his power to kill u, u except if u r yonkou or admiral/highlvl shicki urself, u feel fear as well......Fear in generel is an ability every human has, Oda chose for plots sake to install Jinbei of being free of fear, the m3 of the SHs might all be, but they r the exception among exceptions whom will be the PKs crew, ergo better than the rest!, for them to have character traits even the most selected few of strongest caliber wont even have, is natural in order to reach their goals.....thus plot armor, u cant believe that every commander lvl fighter does not fear death simply, because u like the idea, and because as of now 1 person was shown to be immune to certain DF effects.....

Translation: i can't do it so I assume others can't, too, even fantasy characters who can easily be non-conformed to real-world logic, otherwise my ego can't stand it. Good to know!

 

Plot armor is nice and all but it's just excuse. You never actually manage to give an evidence to show Moria fears death. You just conveniently call characters who don't fear death and exist outside of your comprehension special and assume those you think aren't special, well, aren't special. That's like saying ''just because''. Where's your actual evidence and reason why Moria can't be in that special group? No, not the circular reasoning ''he can't be because he can't be because he fears death because I think that's why... oh wait isn't that what I have to prove?''

 

That's like saying billionaires are special and anyone who can do the same is special without actually understanding that they are that way precisely because, well, they don't submit to your ''obviously we would feel fear, it's normal, we won't be like that, give it up only special people are special. it's life-plot-armor''. They succeed because they choose to be different and not hindered by that.

 

 


3.) Dont really know what u r aiming at here? Any sense behind that claim? Ahh i see i get it...what? lol u just underlined ur own stand which is.....well not start talking about it thouroughly, not even needed. Just this should suffice:

I should reread Haki since i claim that the former enemies (preTS, not MFwar one like admirals/yonkou) r fodder to NW enemies, yet u say Haki is important. Then tell me where r the people who r even capable of useing haki? In paradise or in NW? which one was pre TS, which one was post TS, get the picture.......?????? In the war Haki was already established to exist and to be used, just uncoloured...(jozu hitting croc, garp marco, kizaru<--> marco, marco-->akainu, WB-->akainu), yet Moria back then showed nothing to be able to use haki.....u think he is able to? on what grounds u base this claim? Pls go reread and show me were my sentences r wrong, before u make untrue statements!

I said: "Highly doubtful! Why u guys cant understand that there is a huge gap between postTS SHs and preTS SHs, consequently the ones having been defeated by the fodder (=preTS SHs) dont matter in current postTS SH standard anymore....."

I answered to that becuase someone specific (u?) claimed that Moria would be able to fight commanders, which i called BS, since Jinbei who is below or equal to commanders, was able to "oneshot" moria, even though the surroundings/circumstances were very unfavorable for him .Moreover i answered to ur ....statement....by saying how so? Moria was defeated by preTS Shs, who r far beneath the current SH.....he fought hakiless preTS Sh fodder....not the having trained under Iva, Ray-san, Mihawk, SHs who have significantly risen from fodder lvl, to far above Moria lvl......I mean sinply the fact that Zoro, Sanji, Luffy one shot a pasicifsta , while the entire team was needed to get over 1 preTS, shows, since 1shots r far harder, that each of the individuals of the M3 is already above the entire preTS SH crew.....yet u claim Moria to be a factor.........

Just so you know, what you labeled point 3 and 4 are actually the same point (one illustrates the other). I clearly wrote them to answer one same sentence you wrote. But of course, you would purposely separated them into smaller bits so you can attack Strawman. Typical, capu! And where the hell did I claim Moria could use Haki? Read!

 

 

Haki is not the be-all-end-all means. That's all I say.

 

 


4.) Crocodile was defeated by a way weaker luffy than moria i give u that, yet still the huge difference is, that unlike Moria Croc was in ID where he as lvl6 inmate has boosted his physical (perhaps even mental-->haki but that is assumption) stats immensely, as can be seen in the war were he took several hits like the one from jozu without being truly affected, whereas once upon a time in alabasta luffys hits/battle was enough to take him down. Perhaps u see it differently, and i would understand, since i cant prove my stand, which is that current luffy in each and every mode is exponentially stronger when compared to luffy at alabasta , same with TB Luffy in all modes when comparing preTS to post TS, just the amount is different....and which is also the standi have that IDs treatment boosts one physical stats, we know they tortured jinbei, it is likely in my eyes they tortured Croc as well, thus upping his physical (mental?) stats.

Check previous posts, of mine, i always considered Croc to be fooder before MF/before ID (and i dont see him being able to stand to Zoro or Sanji anymore), same with Enel, i dont consider him weak because he has too few abilities, or does not know how to use them, Enel was very intelligent, very versatile, with an awesome DF, used to augment his very own CoO. One of the best portrayed characters in generel, well balanced! Granted i dislike his godcomplex, but he was the ultimate weapon of the skies so far, an unquestioned force of his realm, just like the yonkous are in the NW......Yet the thing i have tried to tell u on numerous occasions by now is, that since he was defeated by preTS, skypiaLuffy, whos poweroutput/punches/hits is laughable when compared to current postTS standard, he is weak overall. Since so many haki users in the NW would be able to defeat him, since Enel aint tanky/ able to endure much. And NW fighters, at least some highclass, r sure to have fought well CoO adjucated people. I mean Katakuri seems to be a commander known for that trait, u think he would be unable to fight/connect hits to Enel? 1 hit would mean certain defeat, the way Enel was presented not to be able to take skypia luffy hits.....since katakuri is logia too, the range he should be able to cover should be immense, and since he probably can tell from time to time where enel is going to appear, he can act accordingly to connect the hit, ergo enel defeated. Same should be possible with a lot of character with far weaker CoO than Katakuris....

Not that i want to discuss Enel, its just that i thought that u and @captain kidd had already gotten why i deem many preTS (hakiless) characters, even though i totally like some of them (Croc, CP9, even moria to a degree, whom i even hoped to join after the war/TS, Jinbei is better in my opinion though, since his water skills r the weakness to so many DFs presented, that he boosts the overall SH strength by a lot, also that certainly makes the SHs one of the most effective/dangerous crews when it comes to seabattles in generel (jinbei, like Zoro and Sanji ~ Franky+ Robin+ Usoop+ Nami+ CHopper+ Brook)), to be far weaker than u 2 do. Sry to u 2 i thought i had made this very clear when we were discussing Enel and Moria on previous occasions, my bad.

Also i nowhere stated that i consider current croc or MF war Croc to be a highlvl fighter nor a fodder (alabasta time he was fodder imo) did i? So i dont see where ur going with this. Jozu was not able to 1hitKO croc since croc has a huge boost physically (mayhaps also mentally) since punishement in ID, therefore he had grown significantly more tanky/endurable. Moreover he finally got back his drive to go to the NW, which represents, his personal growth in my eyes. We already talked about this months (perhaps even longer?) ago Fulmine, u posed a similar question.....i answered just like today.... i still dont know what ur stand on this was, since u did not answer to it iirc.

The point is Croc got back his resolve and that's why I told you to reread carefully to understand the themes and combat system (especially Haki).

 

Haha, no, Enel is heavily disadvantageous against Luffy because of their DF interaction. He would beat anyone below Top Yonkou Commanders and his chance of losing is very low. Heck, after 1 fight, it can get to zero. Once again, Haki is not the be all end all. It's been circumvented several times in the manga

 

 


6.) Shit just saw u writing that...hmh somehow answered in previous points but i will try, in case i made it unclear as to which part was meant to ur statement.

Yes it is a leap, not logic wise though, since it is a statement that came out of logical assumptions/train of thoughts/variables put together to form a logical conclusion, dont does not have to be true though. Still i see it within reason. Moria did not go to florian trianlge simply because he felt like it, he moved there for safety purposes, to regain his strength and build up a force, which would make a difference, at which he failed though. He went there for securtity purposes as well, he only needed securitty/safety, because he understood that he is nowhere near the upper echelons of the NW, as such he went to florian trianlge for safety, knowing that is it highly unlikely a highcaliber fighter will come to disturb him there, since it was still within paradise. Going there for safety purposes is what makes me believe he went there out of fear, since u dont need safety against somehting u dont have to fear, somehting that does not affect u/has no impact on u. As such i still claim that he fears the yonkous themselfs, and consequently he also fears death by their hand. But yes i give u and @captain kidd that this might not be the case and he simply went their for building up reasons, which still raises the question as to what for though, to which the answer still would be, to not get annihilated at the hands of a yonkou again.....

 

ergo fear of them...

Being fearless is different from being stupid and put your base in a place where you would get attacked by enemies who would not let you build your force. So no, needing safety odesn't indicate fear of death. Again, it's just for success.

 

Which can be fear of defeat. Not death. Ever seen someone who is weak, defeated but die in honor without fear? No? That's sad. If you haven't encountered that at least in story mediums...Read/watch more!

 

So no, that's absolutely illogically hasty conclusion. Logical assumptions? I don't see those anywhere in your point

 

 


7.) The shadows get purified by salt, which is making the entire fruit far less useful than without that downside, which was what i was actually trying to say, yet exaggerated a bit too much it seems...but keep in mind that Morias entire plan to retake his stand in NW/be significant, lies within the concept of getting strong shadows, if those shadows cant be used because of purification they , and consequently morias fruit and its main upside battle ability becomes rendered pretty much useless....

Doppelman is Moria's main tool in 1vs1

 

His weakness is only known by a few individuals so far

 

 


8.) I dont intend to undermine him, neither is that my main aim, i am telling u major weaknesses of his fruit in order to make u understand, why all the upside of his fruit wont be able to help him in battle vs strong opponents......he was not able to take jinbeis shadow even though he specifically said he would do exactly that, ergo it is highly likely he cant control the shadows of strong opponents (if not given the needed time), since the only strong opponent he faced, "1 shotted him" (notice the white eyes i linked earlier, he had those when nightmare luffy got oz to his knees, and when jinbei defeted him in MF, ergo it aint a simply leap in logic, its an analysis based on instances shown by manga pages, and whats more shown by the exact same character!), and the only other time he was able to take shadows he was not even able to control them for a long period of time! If he cant control Sanji,Zoro,Luffy preTS shadows, how u expect him to control the ones of commanders, u fail to elaborate on that, i still say even the rampaging commander shadows kill moria pretty fast, ergo that very skill aint of use in a battle vs strong opponents/commanders!!

Again, why the hell would he need to control their shadows? Taking them is enough. Plus like I have said, we never see what happened after so no way to know. And taking shadows and controlling them are two different things so why the hell does his being unable to take Jinbe's shadows mean he can't control strong people's shadows? Oh, and Doppelman is versatile, so he has plenty of ways.

 

Finally, he doesn't need to scare people LOL. BM's fruit requires her to be both stronger and scary (the latter relies on the former). Moria's fruit only requires the former and to lesser degree.


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#173 captain kidd

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 09:30 AM

The think about comparing moria's DF to BM's DF, I feel every time someone else makes a point, 90% of the time that point can be refuted by pointing out we are comparing fruits not characters.

Only a fool (as of now) would compare BM and moria's power levels. But I don't really see how one can argue that moria's fruit isn't superior in every way imaginable.
 
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#174 ddboy102

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 03:41 PM

The think about comparing moria's DF to BM's DF, I feel every time someone else makes a point, 90% of the time that point can be refuted by pointing out we are comparing fruits not characters.

Only a fool (as of now) would compare BM and moria's power levels. But I don't really see how one can argue that moria's fruit isn't superior in every way imaginable.

 

In all fairness, we are just getting started with BM fruit.

 

Let her get worfed because women in one piece aren't allowed to do much.  :whistle: rampage a bit. :<_<:


Edited by ddboy102, 01 May 2017 - 06:26 PM.

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#175 Grimmjagger

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 10:10 AM

In all fairness, we are just getting started with BM fruit.
 
Let her get worfed because women in one piece aren't allowed to do much.  :whistle: rampage a bit. :<_<:


She already rampaged several times, all ended in disapointement and yet again now we have Caramel's picture, Jimbee's turning against her and Luffy crushing her cake, she just stand around with her eyes spinning like a clueless idiot.

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#176 ddboy102

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 04:09 PM

She already rampaged several times, all ended in disapointement and yet again now we have Caramel's picture, Jimbee's turning against her and Luffy crushing her cake, she just stand around with her eyes spinning like a clueless idiot.

 

she is overwhelmed with anger at this point.

 

Wait till she gathers herself 


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#177 Miss Coquine

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 04:13 PM

Nah I've lost all hope on this Big Mama more like Flop Mama. 

Hancock probably one shots her. 

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#178 ddboy102

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 04:24 PM

Nah I've lost all hope on this Big Mama more like Flop Mama. 

Hancock probably one shots her. 

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7hf8r...

 

You think Big Mom would find her beautiful? :aww:


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#179 Grimmjagger

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 04:28 PM

You think Big Mom would find her beautiful? :aww:


BM doesn't even know what beauty is to begin with, she never could have experience it.

she is overwhelmed with anger at this point.
 
Wait till she gathers herself


...............No can do, she is a disapointement.

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#180 Miss Coquine

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 05:46 AM


BM doesn't even know what beauty is to begin with, she never could have experience it.

Harsh. 

 

You think Big Mom would find her beautiful? :aww:

Yes she probably has a picture of her somewhere. 


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