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Attack on Titan: Chapter Discussion Thread (Part 2)

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#61 DrugzRule

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 01:55 PM

I don't think they were really following his every whim nor would I call it a legion.  I just think they were trying to stay out of his way and do their normal thing (eat humans).  Remember that one bold SOB who tried to get to that one guy when the ape titan was trying to ask him about the 3D gear? He certainly wasn't trying to listen.

 

I'd say that it is HEAVILY implied that the people who created the walls and have been in charge did so for control.  They are concerned with keeping the citizens in a fish bowl.  They have stifled innovation, kept secrets, and I'm pretty sure that they allowed the scouting legion to exist ONLY to insight fear into the people and make them scared to want to leave the walls. While we don't know the specifics, I'd say it's save to assume that Rod and anyone else who runs things are not doing anything for the people.

That titan did stop for a second before continuing, maybe it is just a bad case of ADHD ^^ the others however did stand back and waited until the beast titan gave them the permission to eat Mike.

 

In all likelihood, control was one of the reasons why the Reiss family created the walls and kept the humans from wanting to go outside the wall and maybe you are right that the scouting legion was literally formed to be death fodders. And considering that the titans are outside these walls I think that is a good enough reason to not to go outside. It's a fight they just can't win. Sure the newest chapter confirmed there were other human civilizations outside the walls but we have no idea if any of them are still alive today.

 

Think of the Night of the Living Dead (or almost any other zombie movie for that matter). You and few others are stuck inside a house and zombies are everywhere outside. Do you seal the house completely so the zombies can't get in or break through the zombies to attain freedom? The latter one is considerably more risky and not often the better option despite the higher rewards and is usually only done when they can't stay hidden, but if you had infinite supplies you could even just try to live in the house and just stay there forever as taking on the zombies would be a futile endeavor considering how numerous they are.

 

And for me, this is what it basically boils down to. The titans are simply overpowering the human race and they can't fight them so they tried to seal themselves inside a fishbowl and stay safe that way. Killing people for daring to push the envelope is probably going to far and as I don't remember the peoples inventions particularly risking a war with the titans I am not gonna justify their executions. But I think the government's paranoia of the titans is more of a factor than their hunger for power as the titans would simply eradicate all of them completely. And lets face it, any character who thinks humanity has an optimal chance to beat the titans either lacks a clear understanding of the power difference or really desperate. Most members of the scouting legion are both as they all know there is an enormous power difference they cannot bridge and they still don't even know which titans are behind all of this or why.

 

tl;dr: I think hiding behind the wall was the most logical option because humanity simply can't combat the titans on a equal level. Sure the government is an ass but it's better than being titan food.


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#62 gamria

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 05:45 PM

I'm starting to think the Ackermans have the never-look-old disease like the Hiten-mitsurugi school from Rurouni Kenshin.... with great badassery, comes great youth ;)

Wasn't it mentioned that Levi's mom was a proustite?

It was implied in this chapter that Levi's mum was Kenny's prostitute sister who went underground, but before this chapter, we have never received info on his familial background

 

I'm convinced this is correct because Levi spent most of his life in the Capital's underground slums


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#63 /2aw

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Posted 19 January 2015 - 03:18 AM

That titan did stop for a second before continuing, maybe it is just a bad case of ADHD ^^ the others however did stand back and waited until the beast titan gave them the permission to eat Mike.

 

In all likelihood, control was one of the reasons why the Reiss family created the walls and kept the humans from wanting to go outside the wall and maybe you are right that the scouting legion was literally formed to be death fodders. And considering that the titans are outside these walls I think that is a good enough reason to not to go outside. It's a fight they just can't win. Sure the newest chapter confirmed there were other human civilizations outside the walls but we have no idea if any of them are still alive today.

 

Think of the Night of the Living Dead (or almost any other zombie movie for that matter). You and few others are stuck inside a house and zombies are everywhere outside. Do you seal the house completely so the zombies can't get in or break through the zombies to attain freedom? The latter one is considerably more risky and not often the better option despite the higher rewards and is usually only done when they can't stay hidden, but if you had infinite supplies you could even just try to live in the house and just stay there forever as taking on the zombies would be a futile endeavor considering how numerous they are.

 

And for me, this is what it basically boils down to. The titans are simply overpowering the human race and they can't fight them so they tried to seal themselves inside a fishbowl and stay safe that way. Killing people for daring to push the envelope is probably going to far and as I don't remember the peoples inventions particularly risking a war with the titans I am not gonna justify their executions. But I think the government's paranoia of the titans is more of a factor than their hunger for power as the titans would simply eradicate all of them completely. And lets face it, any character who thinks humanity has an optimal chance to beat the titans either lacks a clear understanding of the power difference or really desperate. Most members of the scouting legion are both as they all know there is an enormous power difference they cannot bridge and they still don't even know which titans are behind all of this or why.

 

tl;dr: I think hiding behind the wall was the most logical option because humanity simply can't combat the titans on a equal level. Sure the government is an ass but it's better than being titan food.

 

(I need to go back and read the chapter before I go and get into what I think actually happened to make sure my memory doesn't fail me)

 

I see where you are coming from though I respectfully disagree with some of your points.  I think it's more so a difference in perspectives rather than one of us being right or wrong.  The only issues I have with your argument are:

 

1) in your zombie analogy you'd have to include a person with the ability to control zombies on your side, two clans of badasses, and people with the ability to turn into zombies, and the means to create more of those people.

2) they purposefully stopped innovation.  One guy looked like he invented a freaking flying machine, something that would be EXTREMELY  useful in a war with giant maneaters whose weakness is near the top of their bodies.

 

I can honestly surmise that originally, before the invention of 3D gear and with humanity likely on the brink of extinction, the original leaders had very good intentions and made the walls in order to protect humanity.  As time progressed however, people's numbers increased, they probably learned more about titans, and technology began to reach a point where fighting the titans looked more realistic.  At this point the leaders did not want to give up control and then the corruption began. 

 

I'm just saying, I've seen Mikasa, Eren (in titan form), and Levi single handedly take out several titans alone, you have a titian that can control some number of titnans, you have a drug that can create shifters and people are inventing things like flying machines, guns, 3D gear, and cannons.  If they really wanted to I believe humanity could have expanded some more.  I'm not saying start an all out war, but kill titans that get too close, start building more wall, expand, use a flying machine to scout out areas of low and high titan activity, use your military power to start killing some titans off.  If they really wanted to, humanity could have expanded a lot. 

 

In summary, I think what you are saying was 100% valid when the walls were first constructed, but over time humanity began to grow, and the people in charge wanted to keep them from growing too much so they would never have a realistic shot of taking the world back from the titans. 


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#64 DrugzRule

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Posted 19 January 2015 - 03:14 PM

(I need to go back and read the chapter before I go and get into what I think actually happened to make sure my memory doesn't fail me)

 

I see where you are coming from though I respectfully disagree with some of your points.  I think it's more so a difference in perspectives rather than one of us being right or wrong.  The only issues I have with your argument are:

 

1) in your zombie analogy you'd have to include a person with the ability to control zombies on your side, two clans of badasses, and people with the ability to turn into zombies, and the means to create more of those people.

2) they purposefully stopped innovation.  One guy looked like he invented a freaking flying machine, something that would be EXTREMELY  useful in a war with giant maneaters whose weakness is near the top of their bodies.

 

I can honestly surmise that originally, before the invention of 3D gear and with humanity likely on the brink of extinction, the original leaders had very good intentions and made the walls in order to protect humanity.  As time progressed however, people's numbers increased, they probably learned more about titans, and technology began to reach a point where fighting the titans looked more realistic.  At this point the leaders did not want to give up control and then the corruption began. 

 

I'm just saying, I've seen Mikasa, Eren (in titan form), and Levi single handedly take out several titans alone, you have a titian that can control some number of titnans, you have a drug that can create shifters and people are inventing things like flying machines, guns, 3D gear, and cannons.  If they really wanted to I believe humanity could have expanded some more.  I'm not saying start an all out war, but kill titans that get too close, start building more wall, expand, use a flying machine to scout out areas of low and high titan activity, use your military power to start killing some titans off.  If they really wanted to, humanity could have expanded a lot. 

 

In summary, I think what you are saying was 100% valid when the walls were first constructed, but over time humanity began to grow, and the people in charge wanted to keep them from growing too much so they would never have a realistic shot of taking the world back from the titans. 

The zombie analogy was never meant to be perfectly accurate, and if we are gonna include the shifting ability etc and we may also increase the size of the zombies as well them having unknown number of exceptional strong and unique zombies themselves ;) (and hidden zombies among the humans o.o)

 

Your second point is valid though, hot air balloons and guns would be extremely useful in a war against the titans and the government should have looked more detailed into these inventions and how they may be used to fight against the titans, instead of killing the inventors indiscriminately, at worst they could have confiscated the inventions and used them for military purposes but they just wasted them :(

 

I think though you are correct and that shows that the government care more about their own hide than mankind's as a whole and are ultimately unfitting to lead them. Creating the walls was a smart idea but it seems everyone just kinda forgot there were giant human eaters outside and if the walls were to fall they would kill everyone. They should have at least strengthen the wall further so the colossal and the armored titans never could have broken it in the first place or done as you said, strengthen their military and fight them at the offense. But I guess the idea at the beginning was that everyone thought their enormous wall was unbreakable and as long they stayed inside them there wouldn't be any reason to risk their lives and go outside. But alas, shit happened so we can have a plot ^^


Edited by DrugzRule, 19 January 2015 - 03:15 PM.

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#65 Hoff

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Posted 19 January 2015 - 05:19 PM

From all of this I gather an RTS of AoT needs to be made.


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#66 /2aw

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 10:11 PM

The zombie analogy was never meant to be perfectly accurate, and if we are gonna include the shifting ability etc and we may also increase the size of the zombies as well them having unknown number of exceptional strong and unique zombies themselves ;) (and hidden zombies among the humans o.o)

 

Your second point is valid though, hot air balloons and guns would be extremely useful in a war against the titans and the government should have looked more detailed into these inventions and how they may be used to fight against the titans, instead of killing the inventors indiscriminately, at worst they could have confiscated the inventions and used them for military purposes but they just wasted them :(

 

I think though you are correct and that shows that the government care more about their own hide than mankind's as a whole and are ultimately unfitting to lead them. Creating the walls was a smart idea but it seems everyone just kinda forgot there were giant human eaters outside and if the walls were to fall they would kill everyone. They should have at least strengthen the wall further so the colossal and the armored titans never could have broken it in the first place or done as you said, strengthen their military and fight them at the offense. But I guess the idea at the beginning was that everyone thought their enormous wall was unbreakable and as long they stayed inside them there wouldn't be any reason to risk their lives and go outside. But alas, shit happened so we can have a plot ^^

ya know I started to realize that while I was typing but I was beyond the point of no return.  No need to be nit-picky about your analogy, I get the point you were making my good....sir.....I think....well anyway

 

That's the exact reason why I think the scouting legion was invented and invested in for the sake of fear mongering.  Like you said, the government could have at least kept the weapons for themselves, but it seems like they just straight up murdered innovators without salvaging anything...but they let that 3D gear slide though. And who is the 3D gear most useful to? The scouting legion!  Let the scouting legion keep dying, keep coming back battered and bruised.  Let the fear of the outside world seep into the hearts of the people, and they'll never want to leave.  If they never want to leave, they will be easier to control.

 

I may sound like a conspiracist here...but I really think it was all done on purpose (not counting Bert and Enie, er I mean Berthold and Ryner breaking in).  If they extended the walls the population would clearly grow, which would make the people harder to control.  Way more likely for smaller governments and factions to form, especially nearer the outer walls.  If they really strengthened the military, then humanity might actually eradicate the titans, or at least shift the population of humans vs titans so much so that titans wouldn't be so much of a problem.

 

I think the government became corrupt over the years, and they set up a system in motion that

1)keeps people afraid of the outside world

2)keeps the human population at a manageable level

3)keeps the available power of the general population low (by power I mean things like shifter abilities, better weapons, inventions, etc..)

all for the sake of control, not for the well being of the human race


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#67 TheLastPierrot

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 08:02 PM

The zombie analogy was never meant to be perfectly accurate, and if we are gonna include the shifting ability etc and we may also increase the size of the zombies as well them having unknown number of exceptional strong and unique zombies themselves ;) (and hidden zombies among the humans o.o)

 

-"shifting ability" could be compared with "turning"
- depending on the fiction there have been giant/bigger than usual Zombies

- zombies with different abilities exist in various fictional works, for example left for dead: hunter, Tank, Witch, smoker and so on.
- "hidden zombies"/hidden shifters could also be compared with the plot device where someone was bitten but doesnt tell anyone. Though I guess this could be even more clear when compared with Vampire fiction.

just felt like pointing this out, not really following the discussion...


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#68 GidroDox

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 08:10 PM

Hi guys, could anyone please clarify if Attack on Titan OVAs are canon? In Particular the 4th one (Choice with no regrets). The idea of an underground city beneath the 3rd wall, making it the safest place by far, inhabited by the poorest people that aren't even allowed to live on the surface seems down right stupid.

 

They don't produce anything, have almost no interaction with the outside world, can't grow food, occupy the safest place, yet are allowed to exist? Surely when the government sent 200,000 beyond the wall to die in order to preserve food, they would've started with the people underground?

Also in the main anime we are told that the underground city was never completed. How is this possible?

P.S I only watch the anime. So if it is canon and explained further in the manga, I would really appreciate if you could let me know that that's the case without spoilers :)

Thanks. 



#69 TheLastPierrot

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 08:39 PM

Hi guys, could anyone please clarify if Attack on Titan OVAs are canon? In Particular the 4th one (Choice with no regrets). The idea of an underground city beneath the 3rd wall, making it the safest place by far, inhabited by the poorest people that aren't even allowed to live on the surface seems down right stupid.

 

They don't produce anything, have almost no interaction with the outside world, can't grow food, occupy the safest place, yet are allowed to exist? Surely when the government sent 200,000 beyond the wall to die in order to preserve food, they would've started with the people underground?

Also in the main anime we are told that the underground city was never completed. How is this possible?

P.S I only watch the anime. So if it is canon and explained further in the manga, I would really appreciate if you could let me know that that's the case without spoilers :)

Thanks. 

 

nope. never read that in the manga at least. It may be from one of the spin offs, probably the one about Levi..


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#70 gamria

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 05:48 AM

Hi guys, could anyone please clarify if Attack on Titan OVAs are canon? In Particular the 4th one (Choice with no regrets). The idea of an underground city beneath the 3rd wall, making it the safest place by far, inhabited by the poorest people that aren't even allowed to live on the surface seems down right stupid.

 

They don't produce anything, have almost no interaction with the outside world, can't grow food, occupy the safest place, yet are allowed to exist? Surely when the government sent 200,000 beyond the wall to die in order to preserve food, they would've started with the people underground?

Also in the main anime we are told that the underground city was never completed. How is this possible?

P.S I only watch the anime. So if it is canon and explained further in the manga, I would really appreciate if you could let me know that that's the case without spoilers :)

Thanks. 

Levi's underground slum is beneath the Capital, which is even further in than Wall Sina

 

The "underground city" you mention are proposed tunnels that were meant to stretch out from under Wall Sina

 

Think about it.  They're underground beyond Wall Sina.  It's easier persuading 200,000 refugees living in Wall Rose to fight for their homes (that was the onus) than forcing a group of people beyond Wall Sina to go do something that's got nothing to do with them.  If your suggestion is to outright massacre the slum people, then that's even less reputable and impossible to hide from the public.

They may be poor and sickly, but you can't just treat them like they're not people.

 

nope. never read that in the manga at least. It may be from one of the spin offs, probably the one about Levi..

A Choice with No Regrets was originally a Visual Novel

 

Later on, a manga adaptation was published in the Aria magazine

http://bato.to/comic...-sentaku-r10114

 

And then afterwards, the anime OVA was made (haven't seen that one yet though)

 

Given how it's adapted so many times, I think it's fair to say it's been accepted into the series canon


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#71 GidroDox

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 09:53 AM


 They're underground beyond Wall Sina.  It's easier persuading 200,000 refugees living in Wall Rose to fight for their homes (that was the onus) than forcing a group of people beyond Wall Sina to go do something that's got nothing to do with them.  If your suggestion is to outright massacre the slum people, then that's even less reputable and impossible to hide from the public.
They may be poor and sickly, but you can't just treat them like they're not people.

 

I still don't understand how come an underground location beyond wall Sina is not a residence of the elite. It is by far the safest place the anime has mentioned. It is also a very good location for dealing with human titans. There are quite a few far more beneficial uses for this location.

The lack of sunlight causing illness would also not be an issue for the elite, as they would be allowed to freely move between locations. 

It just seems to me that an underground village beyond wall Sina is too much of a commodity to be wasted on people that are neither useful or high born.



#72 Morfeus

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 03:20 PM

Seriously, every time I see, that a post has been made in this thread, I beg for new chapter release - no matter the date or day... :(

 

That being said, I love the theories going on. Good stuff! :3


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#73 ruggia

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 03:24 PM

I still don't understand how come an underground location beyond wall Sina is not a residence of the elite. It is by far the safest place the anime has mentioned. It is also a very good location for dealing with human titans. There are quite a few far more beneficial uses for this location.

The lack of sunlight causing illness would also not be an issue for the elite, as they would be allowed to freely move between locations.

It just seems to me that an underground village beyond wall Sina is too much of a commodity to be wasted on people that are neither useful or high born.

Probably has to do with the titans not having been a problem for years until recently. Remember, the wall hasn't been breached for decades and everyone thought they were safe as long as they are behind the walls.

Why would you live in a dark cave underground if you can live above?

Edited by ruggia, 02 February 2015 - 03:25 PM.

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#74 TheLastPierrot

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 03:36 PM

Levi's underground slum is beneath the Capital, which is even further in than Wall Sina

 

The "underground city" you mention are proposed tunnels that were meant to stretch out from under Wall Sina

 

Think about it.  They're underground beyond Wall Sina.  It's easier persuading 200,000 refugees living in Wall Rose to fight for their homes (that was the onus) than forcing a group of people beyond Wall Sina to go do something that's got nothing to do with them.  If your suggestion is to outright massacre the slum people, then that's even less reputable and impossible to hide from the public.

They may be poor and sickly, but you can't just treat them like they're not people.

 

A Choice with No Regrets was originally a Visual Novel

 

Later on, a manga adaptation was published in the Aria magazine

http://bato.to/comic...-sentaku-r10114

 

And then afterwards, the anime OVA was made (haven't seen that one yet though)

 

Given how it's adapted so many times, I think it's fair to say it's been accepted into the series canon

Well, to me canon is when its the original author writing it, even if he accepts it as part of the story I don't consider it truly canon, specially not when its not even mentioned in the original story, feels kinda like a filler to me...


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#75 GidroDox

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 03:38 PM


Probably has to do with the titans not having been a problem for years until recently. Remember, the wall hasn't been breached for decades and everyone thought they were safe as long as they are behind the walls.

Why would you live in a dark cave underground if you can live above?


Good point. Thanks. 

Still, why would anyone live there? There was ample space before the outer wall fell. And they aren't even allowed to stay on the surface for long and have to pay every time they want to get outside. Whats up with that?

#76 TheLastPierrot

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 03:39 PM


Why would you live in a dark cave underground if you can live above?

because people up there have to live in constant fear and instability... unless you are from the inner walls that is.
They could very well live underground and still come out during the day to work on fields or just enjoy the sun, but their houses being build underground would offer great protection to future events.

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#77 ruggia

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 03:55 PM

Still, why would anyone live there? There was ample space before the outer wall fell. And they aren't even allowed to stay on the surface for long and have to pay every time they want to get outside. Whats up with that?

 

I'm guessing the author created it with slums in mind. even if there are spaces above, i'd guess every patch of land is owned by someone or the government. it's definitely a easy way for government to keep second-rate citizens under control.

 

because people up there have to live in constant fear and instability... unless you are from the inner walls that is.
They could very well live underground and still come out during the day to work on fields or just enjoy the sun, but their houses being build underground would offer great protection to future events.

 

the thing is they weren't living in fear and instability. there was no doubt about their safety at all. remember back on how frustrated Eren was at the beginning of the series. we are talking about people who laugh when someone even suggests the idea of the wall falling.


Edited by ruggia, 02 February 2015 - 03:57 PM.


#78 TheLastPierrot

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 04:05 PM

I'm guessing the author created it with slums in mind. even if there are spaces above, i'd guess every patch of land is owned by someone or the government. it's definitely a easy way for government to keep second-rate citizens under control.

 

 

the thing is they weren't living in fear and instability. there was no doubt about their safety at all. remember back on how frustrated Eren was at the beginning of the series. we are talking about people who laugh when someone even suggests the idea of the wall falling.

people are way too paranoid to know they are surrounded by Giants and still feel completely safe, just take a look at reality, even with no giants around "bunkers" and all kind of stuff are still considered the most safe place someone can have, so sending the poor people to the safest zones seems kinda contradictory. I anything I think it would make sense for the poorest people to be sent to the outside districts like the one Eren used to live.
And now that the wall was broken why dont they ever mention the underground cities?

btw, havent seen you for years ruggia


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#79 ruggia

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 04:15 PM

people are way too paranoid to know they are surrounded by Giants and still feel completely safe, just take a look at reality, even with no giants around "bunkers" and all kind of stuff are still considered the most safe place someone can have, so sending the poor people to the safest zones seems kinda contradictory. I anything I think it would make sense for the poorest people to be sent to the outside districts like the one Eren used to live.

And now that the wall was broken why dont they ever mention the underground cities?

Well, the attitude in Eren's city before the breach was clueless, and I'm sure people closer to center were even worse. My best guess is that poor people started settling there, and they grew too big to a point where it got out of control for the government, so they wanted to keep them there as much as possible.

it was mentioned and used, wasn't it? I don't remember which chapter was it, but when it was a state of emergency with the titan appearance inside the wall, weren't people forced to evacuate inside the underground city? I remember reading there was a huge tension between the people and the police and a riot was about to break out. (this was a conversation between Ervin and bald badass)

 

 

btw, havent seen you for years ruggia

trying to make a comeback ;)



#80 TheLastPierrot

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 04:56 PM

Well, the attitude in Eren's city before the breach was clueless, and I'm sure people closer to center were even worse. My best guess is that poor people started settling there, and they grew too big to a point where it got out of control for the government, so they wanted to keep them there as much as possible.

it was mentioned and used, wasn't it? I don't remember which chapter was it, but when it was a state of emergency with the titan appearance inside the wall, weren't people forced to evacuate inside the underground city? I remember reading there was a huge tension between the people and the police and a riot was about to break out. (this was a conversation between Ervin and bald badass)

 

trying to make a comeback ;)

humm from what i remember the problem was the people from the wall maria had to enter the second wall, I dont remember ever mentioning an underground city but now that I think if it an underground city should have been created from the start, instead of walls, that would really be the best option, i actually had a dejavu of gurren laggan just now


Edited by TheLastPierrot, 02 February 2015 - 04:57 PM.

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