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[Character] Sir Crocodile (Part 3)


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#21 Fulmine

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 07:12 AM


at the marineford war. He used his hook just as much as his df

What?

 

 


and against much more powerful fighters than himself at that.

That remains to be seen. For the nth time, MFCroc =/= Alabasta Croc.

 

 


There was nothing out of character with how Crocodile fought in the tomb.

Good joke. Though that goes well with your avatar *thumb*. If this is a secret way to trash Mihawk, I'm all in.


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#22 Oben

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 07:23 AM

Point being that MF Croc made no sense. Alabasta was how he got established as (as effectively weak), so a change still has Alabasta as the base, and half a year (?) in prison doesn't really excuse such a random power-up.



#23 Fulmine

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 07:28 AM

Point being that MF Croc made no sense. Alabasta was how he got established as (as effectively weak), so a change still has Alabasta as the base, and half a year (?) in prison doesn't really excuse such a random power-up.

You still don't accept the willpower explanation and the fact that Impel Down is just like a gym for Sir? Well, ignorance is bliss, I know but then you can always be like me, see the awesomeness of both Croc and Moria and that they are both, at their best, stronger than Mihype.


 

I mean for Enel's sake, Sanji changed from unable to break Blueno's Tekkai to kicking Jyabura (who has nearly 3 times Douriki) around in 1 day without any training only because rescuing Robin fired him up...


Edited by Fulmine, 11 January 2015 - 07:26 AM.

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#24 Oben

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 07:35 AM

You still don't accept the willpower explanation and the fact that Impel Down is just like a gym for Sir? Well, ignorance is bliss, I know but then you can always be like me, see the awesomeness of both Croc and Moria and that they are both, at their best, stronger than Mihype.


 

I mean for Enel's sake, Sanji changed from unable to break Blueno's Tekkai to kicking Jyabura (who has nearly 3 times Douriki) around in 1 day without any training only because rescuing Robin fired him up...

 

Willpower? How on earth is your willpower in prison higher than at the day you ought to achieve everything you planned out for years?

And what does liking a character have to with thinking about his strength? I'm a huge Smoker-fan, but I don't think he's on par with Luffy currently, even if I'd like to see it like that.

 

Protagonist vs. minor villain. And again, Croc's willpower in ID should be less than in Alabasta. One was "ok, here's a chance", the other was "if I lose now, I lose everything".



#25 Fulmine

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 07:59 AM


Willpower? How on earth is your willpower in prison higher than at the day you ought to achieve everything you planned out for years?

Not ''prison''. It's in ''I have a shot at WB'' and the War probably fired him up. Before that he didn't even bother escaping...

 

 


And what does liking a character have to with thinking about his strength? I'm a huge Smoker-fan, but I don't think he's on par with Luffy currently, even if I'd like to see it like that.

Glad to know you understand Smoker is weaker and I NEVER said a word about ''liking a character''? Seriously?

 

I said ''see the awesomeness'' and in that context it so obviously means fighting prowess.

 

 


Protagonist vs. minor villain

First of all, that's not minor villains

 

Second of all, see zero importance in that regarding the discussion at hand...

 

 


And again, Croc's willpower in ID should be more than in Alabasta. One was "ok, here's a chance", the other was "if I lose now, I lose everything" respectively

Fixed.


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#26 Oben

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 09:42 AM

Not ''prison''. It's in ''I have a shot at WB'' and the War probably fired him up. Before that he didn't even bother escaping...


You realize that Croc's actions in MF surmount to much more than trying to take down WB, right? And the second he actually tried a direct attack on WB... he got kicked away by Luffy again!
 

First of all, that's not minor villains
 
Second of all, see zero importance in that regarding the discussion at hand...

 
He was major in Alabasta. Yet in ID and MF, he was not, because wardens and Marines where the big thing here.

Arguably :lol:

Fixed.


There is no sensible reason as for why Crocodile in MF should've been more pumped than in Alabasta. The first was a child of luck, the second a child of year-long planning. We also know how much he values his pride, which was much more at stage in Alabasta than in Marineford.

#27 Danny

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 09:52 AM

What?

 

 

 

 

That remains to be seen. For the nth time, MFCroc =/= Alabasta Croc.

 

 

 

 

Good joke. Though that goes well with your avatar *thumb*. If this is a secret way to trash Mihawk, I'm all in.

 

Jupp, see vs Whitebeard, Doffy and Mihawk.

 

I agree that he's not the same. Though nothing he has done up until puts him on yonkiral level or close to it. How strong he is now is completely up in the air though of course.

 

It's the truth, there's nothing funny about it. I don't care much about Mihawk other than that I like his design. Would never waste my time with mocking him. Not that this has anything to do with my preference. Croc is somewhere in my top 7 characters, while Mihawk is not even close to that.


Edited by Danny, 11 January 2015 - 09:54 AM.


#28 Fulmine

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 10:21 AM


You realize that Croc's actions in MF surmount to much more than trying to take down WB, right?

So he decides to do more than originally planned and due to circumstance changed. Big deal. That does not negate or erase the very first reason though. And definitely not a reason to deflate him either. He probably was even more pumped up to fight DD or Mihawk. At least they are less garbage than Luffy in terms of fighting.

 

 


And the second he actually tried a direct attack on WB... he got kicked away by Luffy again!

So? Luffy did that from the side...after that, Croc still attempted to attack WB anw.

 

 


He was major in Alabasta. Yet in ID and MF, he was not, because wardens and Marines where the big thing here.

Okay.

 

 


Arguably :lol:

And explain your reason?

 

 


The first was a child of luck, the second a child of year-long planning.

Luck or year-long planning matters how? What is important is which state he is in. he said it himself ''my wound is healed''.

 

 

 


We also know how much he values his pride, which was much more at stage in Alabasta than in Marineford.

Reason for that? Because Luffy is a rookie? That sounds okay at first but then along with that is an arrogant and ''too optimistic'' attitude that contributed to his fall. In MF it's not like that. He looked down on all but he's not stupid to forget ''that guy over there was the one who beat me in NW'' or ''those guys are Admirals'' or ''DD is shit but he's still > that strawhat kid'' etc.

 

 

 


Jupp, see vs Whitebeard, Doffy and Mihawk.

Compared to 3 sand tornadoes and 3 sand slashes (which are actually 2 attacks only)?

 

 


I agree that he's not the same. Though nothing he has done up until puts him on yonkiral level or close to it. How strong he is now is completely up in the air though of course.

Yeah sure. I didn't say anything different?

 

 


It's the truth

It isn't. Your ''he fights with DF as much as hook'' is unfound. Or more accurately, it is only found if you count the ''out-character'' action which means this is just circular reasoning.

 

 


there's nothing funny about it

It was but then it seems you're serious about what you said so yeah, it's not. I shouldn't have given benefit of the doubt.

 

 


I don't care much about Mihawk other than that I like his design. Would never waste my time with mocking him. Not that this has anything to do with my preference. Croc is somewhere in my top 7 characters, while Mihawk is not even close to that.

It's okay. Seeing your wrong statements going along with Mihawk's face is fitting to be honest so no problem whether you like mocking him or not. All cool!


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#29 Danny

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 11:24 AM

 

Compared to 3 sand tornadoes and 3 sand slashes (which are actually 2 attacks only)?

 

 

It isn't. Your ''he fights with DF as much as hook'' is unfound. Or more accurately, it is only found if you count the ''out-character'' action which means this is just circular reasoning.

 

 

It was but then it seems you're serious about what you said so yeah, it's not. I shouldn't have given benefit of the doubt.

 

 

It's okay. Seeing your wrong statements going along with Mihawk's face is fitting to be honest so no problem whether you like mocking him or not. All cool!

 

Seems like I forgot about the fodder clearing and Jinbe/Luffy transport. But that actually makes it better for me. He chose to use the hook against high level opponents more times than he decided to use sand attacks. And the fact that he wanted to attack Whitebeard with it is more than enough. Which only makes it more embarassing that he got shat on by Luffy in cqc. But sure, I remembered wrong in terms of quantity. I'll admit that.

 

Not it wasn't. That's terrible humor, if one even can call it that. Serious or not.

 

How (ir)relevant.


Edited by Danny, 11 January 2015 - 11:36 AM.


#30 Fulmine

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 12:57 PM


But sure, I remembered wrong in terms of quantity. I'll admit that.

So the original point is solved.

 

Now onto the new points you make:


He chose to use the hook against high level opponents more times than he decided to use sand attacks. And the fact that he wanted to attack Whitebeard with it is more than enough.

So? What's your point? That Croc's fighting style actually favors his hook more than DF or what? In terms of quantity, that is proven wrong already and you admit. In terms of quality, that is like totally going against what he claims and what he shows.

 

1st: None of the hook move he showed in MF War is named. Aside from the one on WB, the other two have zero implication that they would be named. The attack on Akainu and fodder-clearing are and yes, it's fodder-clearing but so what? It's still one of his most powerful move.

 

 

2nd: The guy stressed how much he trained his DF to make it invincible, and to the point that he can turn intangible on reflex which none of the other Logia shows or boast about. The closest are Enel and Kizaru but one has arguably the best CoO in the series while the other was noticed beforehand...

On the other hand, Croc's performance with hook and hand-to-hand combat against Luffy is bad compared to his DF one.

 

3rd: If it really was the main style, all the more reason he should not use it against Luffy who is at much lower level if he was really that prideful and arrogant (which you said yourself so I don't need to remind you about Croc's attitude) because you don't use higher-level arsenal to deal with people you consider small-fry...especially when DF attacks have already proved to be very effective in the prior 2 fights.

''Maybe he wants to use higher-level skills to end Luffy once and for all and to open Luffy's eyes"?...Okay, point 2 again: are you seriously telling me Croc is stupid enough to mistake which is his better arsenal? He apparently fought worse than when he used DF even with water all over his body...and when you get punched 2 times you should change immediately. Croc is arrogant but not stupid...

 

4th: He used sand tornado on DD AND Jozu then a sand slash on Akainu so in fact the number of times he used his hook and that of using DF are not far apart.

 

 

So how to make sense of all this: very easy, AlabastaCroc=/=MFCroc and his physicality and hook moves are much more confident and effective.

 

 

 


Which only makes it more embarassing that he got shat on by Luffy in cqc

Luffy attacked him suddenly like the way Jozu hit Aokiji...

 

 


Not it wasn't. That's terrible humor, if one even can call it that. Serious or not.

This is a reply to the 2nd or 3rd paragraph in the part you quoted? Though neither is humor anw.

 

 


How (ir)relevant.

Never said it is to Croc's fighting arsenal. Just side comment


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#31 DaEvilWithin

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 01:54 PM

@Oben

Crocodile was more 'pumped' in Impel Down because his dreams shifted back to being big dreams. Alabasta was something he planned for years, but that only happened because he was convinced he could not make it in the New World. He was convinced that there were classes of pirates and that wall was insurmountable. Luffy took a dump on that idea and reawakened that hunger in Crocodile. Luffy basically showed Crocodile that he has to stop being a bitch and fight outside his comfort zone because there is no 'impossible'.

 

And that is the difference.


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#32 Danny

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 02:58 PM

So the original point is solved.

 

Now onto the new points you make:

 

 

So? What's your point? That Croc's fighting style actually favors his hook more than DF or what? In terms of quantity, that is proven wrong already and you admit. In terms of quality, that is like totally going against what he claims and what he shows.

 

1st: None of the hook move he showed in MF War is named. Aside from the one on WB, the other two have zero implication that they would be named. The attack on Akainu and fodder-clearing are and yes, it's fodder-clearing but so what? It's still one of his most powerful move.

 

 

2nd: The guy stressed how much he trained his DF to make it invincible, and to the point that he can turn intangible on reflex which none of the other Logia shows or boast about. The closest are Enel and Kizaru but one has arguably the best CoO in the series while the other was noticed beforehand...

On the other hand, Croc's performance with hook and hand-to-hand combat against Luffy is bad compared to his DF one.

 

3rd: If it really was the main style, all the more reason he should not use it against Luffy who is at much lower level if he was really that prideful and arrogant (which you said yourself so I don't need to remind you about Croc's attitude) because you don't use higher-level arsenal to deal with people you consider small-fry...especially when DF attacks have already proved to be very effective in the prior 2 fights.

''Maybe he wants to use higher-level skills to end Luffy once and for all and to open Luffy's eyes"?...Okay, point 2 again: are you seriously telling me Croc is stupid enough to mistake which is his better arsenal? He apparently fought worse than when he used DF even with water all over his body...and when you get punched 2 times you should change immediately. Croc is arrogant but not stupid...

 

4th: He used sand tornado on DD AND Jozu then a sand slash on Akainu so in fact the number of times he used his hook and that of using DF are not far apart.

 

 

So how to make sense of all this: very easy, AlabastaCroc=/=MFCroc and his physicality and hook moves are much more confident and effective.

 

 

 

 

 

Luffy attacked him suddenly like the way Jozu hit Aokiji...

 

 

 

 

This is a reply to the 2nd or 3rd paragraph in the part you quoted? Though neither is humor anw.

 

 

 

 

Never said it is to Croc's fighting arsenal. Just side comment

 

My point is that he favored it to similar degrees, which is why it is fine that he primarily used it against Luffy in the tomb. Not that he didn't use his sand powers.

 

1. That they're not named is irrelevant. Law's derp-slash is unnamed, and it's arguably his strongest move. You think sandstorm is one of his strongest moves? Idk about that.

 

2. Haven't pretty much all logia users showed that they can turn intagible on reflex? :/ Yet his hook was the thing that actually injured Luffy in the final fight. None of the sand attacks did anything significant.

 

3. Literally right before he started using his hook with poison he said that he accepted Luffy as a dangerous enemy.

 

4. Never claimed they were far apart. That was my point actually.

 

5. Their encounter in the tomb was nothing like Jozu vs Crocodile. Croc was him coming just fine.



#33 Fulmine

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 03:36 PM

@Oben

 

 


Luck or year-long planning matters how? What is important is which state he is in. he said it himself ''my wound is healed''.

@Oben

Crocodile was more 'pumped' in Impel Down because his dreams shifted back to being big dreams. Alabasta was something he planned for years, but that only happened because he was convinced he could not make it in the New World. He was convinced that there were classes of pirates and that wall was insurmountable. Luffy took a dump on that idea and reawakened that hunger in Crocodile. Luffy basically showed Crocodile that he has to stop being a bitch and fight outside his comfort zone because there is no 'impossible'.

 

And that is the difference.

Yeah, DEW explained for me.

 

Basically no one said Croc or Moria completely give up. Yes, they still aim for their dream and prepare all those things for years. But the point is they resort to: put it mildly it would be ''planning'' but put it bluntly it would be ''outright give up, no more head-on fight, hide in the dark and let others (living or non-living) do things for them''. Of course, I have nothing against finding weapon and gathering army but you have to look at the way and mindset they have. It's not like Luffy who ''I need crewmates and good ship and go out there kicking their ass'' anymore. It's ''I need numbers and nuclear power so that I don't need to lift a finger because I can't beat those guys by my own and give up on that.''.

BIG DIFFERENCE!

 

What is more ''amazing''? Head held high trying to win over the heart of the girl you love (whilst, of course, still trying to find out about her hobbies and stuffs which is psychological and caring) OR killing all the other competitors, faking your personalities, do dirty things to other guys (or girls), being a sycophant to her family, throw out money etc. so that she can only chooses you? The first right? Please tell me the first...

 

And that is the state Croc and Moria were in for all those years. But Luffysus (borrowed from Miss Coquine) jumped in their lives and woke them up even though the method is not too pretty and leads people to underestimate them but oh well...and actually Luffy himself is a proof for both Shichibukai. Oda showed it indirectly to us:

-Croc said he was once optimistic like Luffy (but obviously not as stupid and meat-loving). And then you see how he became so cynical? From a scale of Luffy down to DAT...if that's not broken I don't know what is

 

-Moria...man need I say more? Just having his nakama disappearing in front of him (not even confirmed dead), Luffy, our beloved protagonist who never gave up, fell to his knee crying for fuck's sake. Then ''only'' one death of Ace, he was all devastating ''I'm too weak to be PK'' despite his big will and conviction and determination.

Back to Moria, WHOLE crew and nakama slaughtered, probably even in front of his eyes and Enel-knows by what method...should I compare the him and Luffy to see who's worse?  If that's not broken, I don't know what is...He became a fatass sitting around all day...

 

So yeah, they still have pride, plan, ambition but they are not the brave and challenging person they once were and their methods changed to something much less direct. That's what's important. Crocodile in MF War is totally free of that, fighting to his heart's content against all those guys and has his goal right in front of him aka WB. You said ''luck''? Precisely...WB right in front of him without having to prepare anything? Excellent. Absolutely pumped up if you ask me...

 

As for how dream and willpower and conviction are extremely important in One Piece, I don't think I need to say a lot. From story-telling (BB's quote) to even combat system (Haki which is fueled by willpower) and even the example of Sanji that I gave that you never counter.

As for the Impel Down being gym, I do think the torture in there can be beneficial physically. The point is not everyone can benefit from that. Too weak and you're dead or barely hang in there. Too strong like Jinbe and you don't really need it just like we don't get stronger by lifting paper or by doing plank for 10 years (at some point, you need heavier exercises cause your body already adapts). Dodging like Buggy is no good, either. So maybe Croccodile was just in the right mind and state to benefit from that. Plus even his Alabasta form is kinda underestimated in terms of endurance.

 

Lengthy explanation short, it's not non-sense or void of possible explanation. Makes pretty good sense in One Piece actually. It boils down to whether you want to keep them in mind or just refuse to do so.

 

Of course, make no mistake, I'm not promoting PIS power-up. Oda seems to know it himself so he didn't make Luffy beat Admirals even though his conviction to save Ace at the time should be very very high. Apparently there's a limit to how much willpower can boost. So hopefully Oda knows what he is doing though admittedly it's also subjective whether a power-up is reasonable or not. Should judge them independently.

 

 

 

 

My point is that he favored it to similar degrees, which is why it is fine that he primarily used it against Luffy in the tomb. Not that he didn't use his sand powers.

 

1. That they're not named is irrelevant. Law's derp-slash is unnamed, and it's arguably his strongest move. You think sandstorm is one of his strongest moves? Idk about that.

 

2. Haven't pretty much all logia users showed that they can turn intagible on reflex? :/ Yet his hook was the thing that actually injured Luffy in the final fight. None of the sand attacks did anything significant.

 

3. Literally right before he started using his hook with poison he said that he accepted Luffy as a dangerous enemy.

 

4. Never claimed they were far apart. That was my point actually.

 

5. Their encounter in the tomb was nothing like Jozu vs Crocodile. Croc was him coming just fine.

and reason for why he uses it in the tomb?

 

 

1. You think Law's derpslice is arguably his strongest move but not Sand Storm in case of Croc? Okay...I'm perplexed by that.

Also there's a difference since that's not Law's serve-all card. He has to use Mes or others to fight an acrobatic and mobile fighter like DD. So it's about match-up and that's the same for Croc. The name point is largely portrayal admittedly.

 

2. Where? They always have things fired at them from the front or are aware of the attacks beforehand. Croc turns into sand upon reflex. But the point is he made it clear that he focuses on his DF. Of course that does not mean he can't focus on his hook but reality is he sucks relatively in that aspect.

 

His hook impaling Luffy, so? It's closed-range so it's convenient to use hook and he all used DF moves before that...in the second fight he didn't use his hook. Not to mention in Impel Down he also mainly uses his DF powers.

 

3. And? You think he would think about Luffy in the same light as WB or DD? Or it's ''dangerous enemy who is still not in the same class as me''? And then you still have one thing to explain: Why he uses his hook less consistently and the fact that he sucks at fighting with it in Alabasta.

 

4. This point is in conjunction to the above. In short, you are hard-pressed to say his hook is close to his DF moves from what we've seen so far, quality or quantity.

 

 

5. I was talking about his attack on WB was stopped by Luffy...


Edited by Fulmine, 11 January 2015 - 03:46 PM.

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#34 Danny

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 04:05 PM

 

 

1. You think Law's derpslice is arguably his strongest move but not Sand Storm in case of Croc? Okay...I'm perplexed by that.

Also there's a difference since that's not Law's serve-all card. He has to use Mes or others to fight an acrobatic and mobile fighter like DD. So it's about match-up and that's the same for Croc. The name point is largely portrayal admittedly.

 

2. Where? They always have things fired at them from the front or are aware of the attacks beforehand. Croc turns into sand upon reflex. But the point is he made it clear that he focuses on his DF. Of course that does not mean he can't focus on his hook but reality is he sucks relatively in that aspect.

 

His hook impaling Luffy, so? It's closed-range so it's convenient to use hook and he all used DF moves before that...in the second fight he didn't use his hook. Not to mention in Impel Down he also mainly uses his DF powers.

 

3. And? You think he would think about Luffy in the same light as WB or DD? Or it's ''dangerous enemy who is still not in the same class as me''? And then you still have one thing to explain: Why he uses his hook less consistently and the fact that he sucks at fighting with it in Alabasta.

 

4. This point is in conjunction to the above. In short, you are hard-pressed to say his hook is close to his DF moves from what we've seen so far, quality or quantity.

 

 

5. I was talking about his attack on WB was stopped by Luffy...

 

1. I'm unsure about it being one of his top moves, that's all. Point was that insignificance of it not being named. Agreed about it being the same, so that's not an issue.

 

2. Every times a logia has been attacked from behind or the side without seeing the attack come? Not sure if I understand what type of scenes you mean here. Could you show me some panels as examples. No, when he grazed Luffy with the hook in the final fight, which I stated above.

 

3. He doesn't have to at all. That he sees Luffy as a dangerous enemy is enough. He doesn't have to face the WSM man to treat it similarly. Different attacks have different uses. Didn't suck more with it than he did with sand attacks in the final fight.  :shrug:

 

4. See above.

 

5. Then you responded with the wrong scene to begin with. 



#35 Fulmine

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 12:28 AM


Point was that insignificance of it not being named

Portrayal-wise it does mean something

 

 


Agreed about it being the same, so that's not an issue.

It is because that means your claim is unfound.

 

 


2. Every times a logia has been attacked from behind or the side without seeing the attack come?

Again, where?

 

 


No, when he grazed Luffy with the hook in the final fight, which I stated above.

That was an extra comment to show that the final fight is not consistent with the first two. It is not a reply to that part of your post. Though I have to ask: that's a proof of his not sucking in hand-to-hand combat because?

 

 


He doesn't have to at all. That he sees Luffy as a dangerous enemy is enough. He doesn't have to face the WSM man to treat it similarly

Of course he doesn't. Just have to face strong people like Mihype or DD.

 

 


Different attacks have different uses

Which only proves my point, not yours.

 

 


Didn't suck more with it than he did with sand attacks in the final fight. :shrug:

Because he didn't use what he should, especially when he knows they are effective and wait till the last moment to ditch out some sand blades that Luffy's conviction just shatters?

 

 


4. See above.

Yeah, and wrong.

 

 


5. Then you responded with the wrong scene to begin with.

Once again, it's so wrong to give you benefit of the doubt. Your original post is the below:


He chose to use the hook against high level opponents more times than he decided to use sand attacks. And the fact that he wanted to attack Whitebeard with it is more than enough. Which only makes it more embarassing that he got shat on by Luffy in cqc.

MFCroc =/= AlabastaCroc so if you want to say he was embarrassed, you should use MFCroc. But now you tell me you used AlabastaCroc who is outright weaker than MFCroc, both DF and physicality? Okay...


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#36 Danny

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 07:02 AM


Portrayal-wise it does mean something

 

No, it doesn't. You can't be selective because it fits your stance when there is no difference to begin with.

 


It is because that means your claim is unfound.

 

See above. 

 


Again, where?

 

When Monet was shot in the head for example. Or when Smoker got implaled on PH.

 


That was an extra comment to show that the final fight is not consistent with the first two. It is not a reply to that part of your post. Though I have to ask: that's a proof of his not sucking in hand-to-hand combat because?

 

But the comment proves nothing, just reinforces that you're wrong. Because it was the only significant attack. But sure, we can conclude with that Croc sucked with both hand to hand and his DF. He failed with both in the final fight, just less with his hook.

 


Of course he doesn't. Just have to face strong people like Mihype or DD.

 

Bookmarked. It was Crocodile's words. He saw Luffy as dangerous. He draws the line, no one else.

 


Which only proves my point, not yours.

 

No, it really doesn't. Because then it makes sense that he can use both his hook and df in a fight, which is logical especially since Croc and Luffy were close to each other during significant amounts of the time in the tomb. 

 


Because he didn't use what he should, especially when he knows they are effective and wait till the last moment to ditch out some sand blades that Luffy's conviction just shatters?

 

But they weren't effective though. All sand attacks in the final fight failed. And should, really? There is no should. He fought in character. That's the only Croc that existed right there and then. Because that was the only appropriate moment for him, that's why. The distance was there, plus he wasn't busy with laughing and being his arrogant self.

 

 


MFCroc =/= AlabastaCroc so if you want to say he was embarrassed, you should use MFCroc. But now you tell me you used AlabastaCroc who is outright weaker than MFCroc, both DF and physicality? Okay...

 

Still don't get it, huh? It doesn't matter that they're not the same. He sat in prison, his fighting style is the same as we've not gotten a hint that it has changed. It only got reinforced that it is the same. That's why it is embarassing that he got owned by Luffy. He thinks of it as a relevant tool for fighting, and it's not something new. Of course I'm talking about Alabsta Croc when stating that   :mellow:



#37 captain kidd

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 07:10 AM

arrogant? really? even after Crocodile himself said he would give luffy a pirates death?

 

 

the only arrogant think that Corcodile did in that final fight was assume that luffy would die from poison and forget that luffy can punch through blades made of sand without injury to his fists

 

 

I guess all the times he talked down to luffy could be seen as arrogant, but it was the truth......they were different class of pirates, and luffy was nothing compared to him.


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#38 Fulmine

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:19 AM


No, it doesn't. You can't be selective because it fits your stance when there is no difference to begin with.

I didn't say overall-wise...O__o

 

 


See above.

They have nothing to do with each other O__o

 

 


When Monet was shot in the head for example.

 

Or when Smoker got implaled on PH.

That is completely out of her awareness how?

 

I don't remember that. Link?

 

 


But the comment proves nothing, just reinforces that you're wrong

What? Because my stance is his hook is not as prominent as his DF and a reasoning and evidence supporting that prove me wrong? The word ''right'' is spelled r-i-g-h-t.

 

 


Because it was the only significant attack.

That does not matter. Akainu can let his opponent dodge his Meigou or Daifunka then kick the dude with an unnamed, basic kick and you will tell me his kick is his main arsenal over his DF?

 

 


Bookmarked.

 

It was Crocodile's words. He saw Luffy as dangerous. He draws the line, no one else.

Sure.

 

And the line says nothing about changing his arsenal, much less changing into something not being his main arsenal...it was you who imagine that ''dangerous => using hook''

 

 


No, it really doesn't. Because then it makes sense that he can use both his hook and df in a fight, which is logical especially since Croc and Luffy were close to each other during significant amounts of the time in the tomb.

Close? And what prevented him from keeping distance? Nothing except plot. That tomb has enough space for the distance in their 2nd fight...

 

 


But they weren't effective though.

They were...didn't you see Luffy being sucked dry?...

 

 


All sand attacks in the final fight failed.

Because he was already hindered by plot and Luffy's willpower by that point

 

 


And should, really? There is no should. He fought in character.

Well, circular reasoning...

 

 


That's the only Croc that existed right there and then.

 

Because that was the only appropriate moment for him, that's why.

yeah, who had been altered to lose.

 

appropriate how?

 

 


He sat in prison, his fighting style is the same as we've not gotten a hint that it has changed. It only got reinforced that it is the same.

But that's not the point. No one ever said his fighting style changed. the point is his physicality got much better...

 


That's why it is embarassing that he got owned by Luffy. He thinks of it as a relevant tool for fighting, and it's not something new.

Once again, the Croc using hook in MF and in Alabasta are different. Why would it be embarrassing when he got stronger? You mistake the order...

 

 


Of course I'm talking about Alabsta Croc when stating that :mellow:

Hence why you're wronger than I thought


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#39 Danny

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:52 AM


I didn't say overall-wise...O__o

 

Didn't say you did. Just proved you wrong in this scenario, just like the others.

 

 

 


That is completely out of her awareness how?
 
I don't remember that. Link?

 

Monet scene which is self explanatory. 

 

Smoker 

 

 

 


What? Because my stance is his hook is not as prominent as his DF and a reasoning and evidence supporting that prove me wrong? The word ''right'' is spelled r-i-g-h-t.

 

And that stance is wrong, which I have proven again and again. 

 

 

 


That does not matter. Akainu can let his opponent dodge his Meigou or Daifunka then kick the dude with an unnamed, basic kick and you will tell me his kick is his main arsenal over his DF?

 

That is hypothetical vs a canon manga scenario, hence it's irrelevant. And Luffy didn't even dodge them, they just did nothing to him.

 

 

 


And the line says nothing about changing his arsenal, much less changing into something not being his main arsenal...it was you who imagine that ''dangerous => using hook''

 

It is part of his main arsenal. Point is that once he saw an enemy as dangerous, he often used the hook. Which only shows that my stance is the correct one. I never said only. 

 

 

 


Close? And what prevented him from keeping distance? Nothing except plot. That tomb has enough space for the distance in their 2nd fight...

 

Both his and Luffy's speed. Really simple. 

 

 

 


They were...didn't you see Luffy being sucked dry?...

 

Not in the third fight. He did try to suck Luffy dry, but got outsmarted and thus failed.

 

 


Because he was already hindered by plot and Luffy's willpower by that point

 

No, he just wasn't skilled and strong enough.

 

 

 


Well, circular reasoning...

 

That's not circular reasoning...

 

 

 


yeah, who had been altered to lose.
 
appropriate how?

 

Who lost because he got exceeded* 

 

Distance, prep time, positioning. 

 

 

 


But that's not the point. No one ever said his fighting style changed. the point is his physicality got much better...

 

That's not the point at all. The point is his fighting style and the relevancy of his hook and cqc. That's what I've been arguing all along, black on white. 

 

 

 


Once again, the Croc using hook in MF and in Alabasta are different. Why would it be embarrassing when he got stronger? You mistake the order...

 

You don't get it. It has nothing to do with his strength in MF. Point is that he actually relies on his hook, a vital tool of his arsenal, and against beastly opponents at that. Yet he got trashed in that department by Luffy. It was nothing new. Sure he had improved himself, but that's not the point. He got outmatched by Luffy while using what was a vital tool for his fighting style. The marineford comparison is simply used to confirm the significance of his hook. 1+1=2!

 

Anyways, I'm bored of repeating myself and it makes the discussion tedious, so this is it for me. 


Edited by Danny, 12 January 2015 - 09:24 AM.


#40 Fulmine

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:58 AM


Didn't say you did. Just proved you wrong in this scenario, just like the others.

If that's the case then I can't be wrong. You can only think I'm wrong if you think I wrote ''overall'' unless you operate on a different set of reasoning and logic.

 

 


Monet scene which is self explanatory.

What's self-explanatory? That she's aware? Agree.

 


Smoker

And what's with this scene? I didn't see anything aside from Smoker barely dodging the rock...he already had his body in smoke prior...

 

 


And that stance is wrong, which I have proven again and again.

You haven't proved anything. From the number of times Croc uses his hook or DF to how they are used you are all wrong about.

 

 


That is hypothetical vs a canon manga scenario, hence it's irrelevant. And Luffy didn't even dodge them, they just did nothing to him.

Why is it irrelevant just because it's hypothetical? It's an example to show that just because an attack happens to deal damage does not mean it's the fighter's main arsenal. And I say nothing about Luffy, only Akainu...

 

 


It is part of his main arsenal.

 

Point is that once he saw an enemy as dangerous, he often used the hook. Which only shows that my stance is the correct one. I never said only.

So? The point is whether it's more or less important than his DF.

 

And he also used his DF. Not to mention you know it yourself that there is circumstantial factor. I mean if he engages in close and hand-to-hand combat then of course his hook is his weapon but that does not mean he would use it when the situation clearly is something in which he would use his DF which has proven to be effective. And overall his DF is still the main thing.

 

 


Both his and Luffy's speed. Really simple.

And why are the 1st and 2nd fights not like that? It's not like his or Luffy's speed or both suddenly changed significantly...

 

 


Not in the third fight. He did try to suck Luffy dry, but got outsmarted and thus failed.

Because he suddenly changed to using his hook and close combat instead of using his DF to open the path to victory. So not in-character at all.

 

 


No, he just wasn't skilled and strong enough.

With his hook. So yeah, totally PIS. It's like instead of shooting the opponent, you abandon your gun and fight close combat.

 

 


That's not circular reasoning...

You reason your point by saying your point? Yeah...know one more poster who use circular reasoning. Wish I could know gold mines as many times as that

 

 


Who lost because he got exceeded*

Because he was altered to pick a combat mean that is not in-character and other reasons.

 

 


Distance, prep time, positioning.

None of which tells him to use his hook. Show me how they are different to the 1st and 2nd fights?

 

 


That's not the point at all. The point is his fighting style and the relevancy of his hook and cqc. That's what I've been arguing all along, black on white.

Which can be changed or adjusted according to physical condition, especially with weapon and close combat fighting (in traditional, physical sense)...you sure you really know the difference between hook and magic?

 

 

 


Point is that he actually relies on his hook, a vital tool of his arsenal, and against beastly opponents at that.


Sure he had improved himself, but that's not the point.

And his MF self is much physically stronger than Alabasta one so that's one big reason to be more confident and effective with close combat. 

 

 


Yet he got trashed in that department by Luffy.


He got outmatched by Luffy while using what was a vital tool for his fighting style

Still AlabastaCroc. He sucks (relatively) with his hook.

 

 

 


The marineford comparison is simply used to confirm the significance of his hook. 1+1=2!

Which does not make it > his DF and even with equal emphasis, that does not mean he should just use one when the situation demands the other.

 

 


Anyways, I'm bored of repeating myself and it makes the discussion tedious, so this is it for me.

Yeah, bye!


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