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[Discussion] Haki (Part 3)


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#1 Petite Fleur

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:18 AM

Previous Thread

 

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Last few posts;

here's a thing: stronger than what?

 

 

Ok, i give you the CP9 thing, youre right :D

Its not contradiction, its the fact that weve seen the strongest guys in the manga fight, and they didnt use abilities weaker guys are using now, like hardening. Of course, its not a contradiction, but it just feels weird. Thats why i hope Oda clears thr difference between both CoA and somehow shows us the invisible one can be stronger or more usefull for some cases. That would make me happier

 

 

that is the main point of the conversation........ it is in no way irrelevant......

 

 

Hodi proved to us, that one can break through haki if one's combined attacking power is greater then the defenders haki defense.........

 

I KNOW the numbers are arbitrary, i even called them "made up numbers" do you not read my posts????????? those numbers were to illustrate my point.

 

 

 

so your argument is that zoro and pica were so evenly matched that their stats were equal, strength speed, weapons..... and the only stat that was not equal was the zoro's haki being stronger???????????

 

that is ridiculous.......

 

Yes i did make up zoro being stronger, but we all know that zoro is stronger than pica......come on....... if pica was stronger he would of beat zoro instead of running around the entire time....

 

 

stronger than mine

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please stop making me reread this horrible arc.......


 

 

you are seriously going to need to accept the fact that Oda changed how CoA works over the TS......

 

 

then it's okay. nothing is wrong...

 

 

That isn't my argument and it's also ridiculous. Endurance, speed, agility, etc. don't go into how strong or defensive you are. Nor were they so evenly matched in strength, nor did they need to be. Pica's hardening haki+durability vs. Zoro's strength+swords+haki where Zoro won the fight. The deciding factor was Zoro's haki, because his swords and strength alone couldn't break Pica's haki.

 

 

 

 

That's not how that works. You don't win fights because you're physically stronger. See any Usopp victory ever.


Edited by Petite Fleur, 03 April 2015 - 10:20 AM.

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#2 Tale

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:22 AM

 

The deciding factor was Zoro's haki, because his swords and strength alone couldn't break Pica's haki.

 

We don't know that. Zoro started using haki before Pica did and never failed to cut through Pica's haki without it.



#3 Petite Fleur

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:24 AM

 

 
 

 

We don't know that. Zoro started using haki before Pica did and never failed to cut through Pica's haki without it.

 

We do know that, because Zoro says it directly.


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#4 Tale

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:28 AM

We do know that, because Zoro says it directly.

 

Zoro doesn't say anything about failing to cut Pica without haki. Again, Zoro was already using haki. Obviously, Pica's haki needs to be stronger to beat Zoro.



#5 Petite Fleur

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:30 AM

Zoro doesn't say anything about failing to cut Pica without haki. Again, Zoro was already using haki. Obviously, Pica's haki needs to be stronger to beat Zoro.

Not really how that works. It was their first real and direct clash where Zoro struck Pica down with a real, solid blow. Obviously, their clash would come down to haki hence Zoro's statement. If Pica's haki is stronger than Zoro's, because he references his own haki directly, then Pica will win.


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#6 Tale

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:31 AM

Not really how that works. It was their first real and direct clash where Zoro struck Pica down with a real, solid blow. Obviously, their clash would come down to haki hence Zoro's statement. If Pica's haki is stronger than Zoro's, because he references his own haki directly, then Pica will win.

 

Isn't that what I said? Or are you saying that Zoro's emphasis on haki (and not haki + something else) implies he thought he couldn't cut through Pica's haki without it?


Edited by Tale, 03 April 2015 - 10:31 AM.


#7 Petite Fleur

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:43 AM

Isn't that what I said? Or are you saying that Zoro's emphasis on haki (and not haki + something else) implies he thought he couldn't cut through Pica's haki without it?

Yes, that's my point.


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#8 Tale

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:46 AM

Yes, that's my point.

 

That makes sense, if Zoro has a way to estimate how strong Pica's haki is. (Which seems possible, given that other people have commented about people's haki without seeing it.) And it makes Pica look less fodder-ish. 



#9 captain kidd

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 11:21 AM

That isn't my argument and it's also ridiculous. Endurance, speed, agility, etc. don't go into how strong or defensive you are. Nor were they so evenly matched in strength, nor did they need to be. Pica's hardening haki+durability vs. Zoro's strength+swords+haki where Zoro won the fight. The deciding factor was Zoro's haki, because his swords and strength alone couldn't break Pica's haki.

 

 

 

 

That's not how that works. You don't win fights because you're physically stronger. See any Usopp victory ever.

 

 

 

you seem to be missing something......... zoro clearly said "not if my haki is stronger"

 

which means, the ONLY deciding factor as to if zoro could beat pica or not, is IF ZORO's HAKI WAS STRONGER THAN PICA'S HAKI, That is what is implied by what Zoro said there. 

 

 

he didnt say "If i am stronger" or "if the combined power of my combat abilities is stronger" no he said if his HAKI is stronger........ WHICH IMPLIES~~~~~ the only thing that beats haki, is stronger haki.

 

 

stop me if i am wrong, but i am not.......

 

 

"you cant cut my haki"

"I can if my haki is stronger"

ergo------------ only way through someone's haki is stronger haki RIGHT!?!?!?!?!?

 

what are you missing?

 

 

it is a zoro fight........if he cant overpower his opponent.....what else is he going to do? out smart them.........? Zoro coudlnt over power Enel, you know what happened? ya we all do...... Zoro couldnt over power lucci, you know what happened? zoro couldn't over power oz, you know what happened? Zoro COULD over power mr. 1, zoro COULD overpower ohm, Zoro COULD over power rymua. Zoro doesn't win using anything other than power.......... if pica was stronger than zoro, zoro would of lost.......


 
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#10 Petite Fleur

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 11:27 AM


you seem to be missing something......... zoro clearly said "not if my haki is stronger"

which means, the ONLY deciding factor as to if zoro could beat pica or not, is IF ZORO's HAKI WAS STRONGER THAN PICA'S HAKI, That is what is implied by what Zoro said there.

 

Yes, this is my entire point.

 


he didnt say "If i am stronger" or "if the combined power of my combat abilities is stronger" no he said if his HAKI is stronger........ WHICH IMPLIES~~~~~ the only thing that beats haki, is stronger haki.

 

Nupe, it infers that the deciding factor is going to be haki but not that other things are irrelevant. It means that the combined x overcomes the combined y. Pica's durability without haki couldn't stand up to Zoro with haki, and Zoro without haki couldn't cut down Pica with haki. That's what the statement implies.

 


Zoro COULD over power mr. 1

 

Zoro didn't use power, he used technique.

 


zoro COULD overpower ohm

 

Zoro cut him through range because he couldn't get TO him to overpower him.

 


Zoro COULD over power rymua

 

Ryuuma walked away from that match because of the shame it brought on the body the shadow was in.


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#11 captain kidd

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 11:30 AM

Yes, this is my entire point.

 

 

 

 

Nupe, it infers that the deciding factor is going to be haki but not that other things are irrelevant. It means that the combined x overcomes the combined y. Pica's durability without haki couldn't stand up to Zoro with haki, and Zoro without haki couldn't cut down Pica with haki. That's what the statement implies.

 

 

 

 

Zoro didn't use power, he used technique.

 

 

 

 

Zoro cut him through range because he couldn't get TO him to overpower him.

 

 

 

 

Ryuuma walked away from that match because of the shame it brought on the body the shadow was in.

 

ok, good now we are getting somewhere...

 

 

so if you are correct that zoro needed haki, to "tip the scales"

 

if that is the case......why did Zoro's haki need to be stronger?

 

 

 

you surely must also agree that zoro is much stronger then pica right??


 
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#12 Petite Fleur

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 11:32 AM


so if you are correct that zoro needed haki, to "tip the scales"

if that is the case......why did Zoro's haki need to be stronger?

 

Because it's the deciding factor, but not the only factor.

 


you surely must also agree that zoro is much stronger then pica right??

 

Doesn't really matter, since their battle didn't come down to strength vs. strength.


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#13 captain kidd

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:24 PM

Because it's the deciding factor, but not the only factor.

 

 

 


 

Doesn't really matter, since their battle didn't come down to strength vs. strength.

 

that is what you are not understanding.

 

from what Zoro said, IT IS the only factor


 
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#14 Petite Fleur

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 11:26 AM

that is what you are not understanding.

 

from what Zoro said, IT IS the only factor

No, it's just the deciding factor for that one bout.


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#15 Synergy

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 10:21 AM

Are the elemental powers (Fire in Red Hawk) a kind of CoA?


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#16 Fulmine

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 10:38 AM

Are the elemental powers (Fire in Red Hawk) a kind of CoA?

No...just friction


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#17 captain kidd

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 05:40 PM

No, it's just the deciding factor for that one bout.

 

 

that is not what zoro said.....

 

he said "not if mine is stronger"

 

meaning it is the ONLY factor, not the deciding factor.......

 

he said nothing else. you are taking his speech way out of context and making assumptions that are not there if you believe anything else.


 
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#18 Madara D Dragon

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 06:28 PM

that is not what zoro said.....

he said "not if mine is stronger"

meaning it is the ONLY factor, not the deciding factor.......

he said nothing else. you are taking his speech way out of context and making assumptions that are not there if you believe anything else.

Should Oda have written some.. 3 pages with Zoro explaining all the dexiding factors of his victory? "Well, fhe fact that a sword is sharp helps cuting, and I have three by the way. And youre armour is so tiny and quite stupid, frankly, and doesnt protect you a lot. Oh, and the position we are in now in the air is a big factor also, and of course..." you got it, right? Zoro comenting on one factoe doesnt mean thats the ONLY one there. Or do you think Zoro's accuracy for example isnt a factor in that clash??

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#19 captain kidd

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 06:42 PM

Should Oda have written some.. 3 pages with Zoro explaining all the dexiding factors of his victory? "Well, fhe fact that a sword is sharp helps cuting, and I have three by the way. And youre armour is so tiny and quite stupid, frankly, and doesnt protect you a lot. Oh, and the position we are in now in the air is a big factor also, and of course..." you got it, right? Zoro comenting on one factoe doesnt mean thats the ONLY one there. Or do you think Zoro's accuracy for example isnt a factor in that clash??

 

no.... Oda should of written nothing

 

and just let us watch Zoro cut pica down with this superior fighting ability.

 

 

 

Everything Oda writes has a meaning, when he writes something it is not just to fill empty space. here let me show you.

 

 

Pica "my Haki will protect me"

Zoro "not if mine is stronger"

 

Pica "My haki will protect me"

Zoro "not if I am stronger"

 

notice; they both take the same space BUT, one implies that to break haki, one needs stronger haki. but the second implies that to break haki one only needs be stronger.

 

 

 

 

 

ok lets make this real simple.

 

 

either 

 

A- your telling me that Oda is a 3rd rate hack that writes  only there to fill space, and doesn't think about the long term implications of what he writes.

 

or

 

B- you are saying Zoro, and therefore Oda, is wrong about how Haki works........


 
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#20 Sloan

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 08:47 PM

C, Zoro can't cut Pica without haki
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