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[Discussion] Haki (Part 3)


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#181 Madara D Dragon

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 03:47 AM

Well, then, that pannel with Luffy (trying to improve his CoO) with his eyes closed seeing Katakuri's silhouette wasn't CoO again, right? It clearly was a new ability he developed at the moment. Or maybe it was CoO, but its nowhere hinting that Ussop's was CoO, because Ussop has a long nose and Luffy doesn't, so its not the same ability...
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#182 capu

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 05:29 AM

Well, then, that pannel with Luffy (trying to improve his CoO) with his eyes closed seeing Katakuri's silhouette wasn't CoO again, right? It clearly was a new ability he developed at the moment. Or maybe it was CoO, but its nowhere hinting that Ussop's was CoO, because Ussop has a long nose and Luffy doesn't, so its not the same ability...

No Usoop can't have CoO because he is ranged, and shoots things, and lies, and is called Usoop :D

The silhouette thing with Fuji was only Oda forgetting having used something like this/similar with Usoop beforehand, damn u Oda ;)


Edited by capu, 09 February 2018 - 05:29 AM.

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#183 captain kidd

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 09:38 AM

Because they did not know that it was an inner voice! They did not know what was happening to them! They wanted to block the (inner) voice, thinking it to be coming from the outside, thus ear thing!

It can! Zoro! Fuji not walking against every stone in his way that aint hitting his sword! Fuji having steady walk! Fuji hearing/feeling/perceiving the unliving thing called lightning! Fuji using all the rubble (how could he distinguish the rubble from everything else in ur eyes?)!

lol my bottom rant is: some use invis CoA some visible CoA, both r CoA thats a fact, therefore (just as ray-san said this chapter, i mean how can u still deny this? Ray-san said there r different versions of CoO!) there are also different version of CoO.


If it was an eye thing..... like with usopp. Then they surely would of known to close their eyes......but instead they closed their ears..... clear as day.

Let me explain-
Fuji doesnt walk into stones the same way normal blind people dont, you notice the "tap tap" sound
https://3.bp.blogspo...1-597965-13.jpg
He is using his sword as a cane to feel around. This is how normal blind people walk. (Idk how much you know about this subject i would explain it in kore depth but i dont want to waste my typing if you know what i am talking about)
Lighting- 2 reasons 1- he used his ears. If this was a CoO feat then he wouldnt need to ask DD if they sky was dark.... he would just know it was lightning.... to our knowledge coo has never been wrong. Coo doesnt tell the user their opponent will throw a right punch, only to get hit by a left kick. (Maybe in training, but fuji is clearly not in training) fans always wrongly assume this was coo when it clearly isnt.
2ndly, and more importantly. Even if it was coo fuji used, the lightning was an attack, it was nami's attack against jora. Since it was an attack fuji's coo can see it... if not then all logia would be invisible to coo and kizaru would be unstopable.

How he lifted the rubble- its a function of his fruit. He was just going to lift up every thing that wasnt a human. He probably has the ability to lift up everything in a given area, and he used coo to make sure he didnt get any humans. And look at what he leaves, it is a baron desert looking place. Its not like there are plants and bikes left, he picked up everything except people. (Except the part of the town that wasnt destroyed)

No he didnt.... rey just told us that the sharringun can evolve into the renigun...(wow i cant spell the names of the naruto OP eyes) he said coo, when trained further, some powerful people can take it a step further.

Also, i am glad you mention this chapter. Because in it we clearly see luffy with a blind fold on being told to feel auras. BUT usopp's ability is clearly eye based. He could clearly SEE the aura. Where coo doesnt use sight to feel auras.


Saying usopp is using coo is as ridiclous as saying lucci's "iron shell" is coa. They are similar abilities that nearly do the same thing yet are not the same...
 
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#184 capu

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 06:41 AM

@captain kidd

 

sry but i find this discussion unnecessary, i doubt u will change ur mind, and for me it is clear what Usoop has as well, in my oponion there are simply too many instances that make similar effects be the outcome or the reason for it...i dont see why i would discuss, that which for me is granted and already presented as fact in the manga,especially since some arguements u use have huge plot holes.

I dont even believe that more than a handful of people in this forum would agree with u (might be wrong though), therefore if ur doubts aint shared by anyone that comes to mind i stick with my understanding, we all can be wrong but as for now lets agree to disagree.  



#185 Tale

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:49 AM

@captain kidd

 

And why think Usopp's haki is an eye related ability? The only thing that could make him perceive the auras of other people through walls - that we know of - is haki. Just because his eyes weren't covered (like Luffy's when he was training or like Fujitora (who is blind)) doesn't mean his eyes were a necessary factor in what he did.

 

Also, at this point there have been a number of Coo users who've never spoken of CoO as a sound. Katakuri, Fujitora and Luffy (iirc) have never said anything about sounds. Aisa, Coby and Eneru described it in terms of voices. We're seeing people are good at different things when it comes to CoO (except Eneru, who was good at everything), so it makes sense that different people emphasise different aspects of it.


Edited by Tale, 10 February 2018 - 07:49 AM.

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#186 captain kidd

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:47 PM

@captain kidd

sry but i find this discussion unnecessary, i doubt u will change ur mind, and for me it is clear what Usoop has as well, in my oponion there are simply too many instances that make similar effects be the outcome or the reason for it...i dont see why i would discuss, that which for me is granted and already presented as fact in the manga,especially since some arguements u use have huge plot holes.
I dont even believe that more than a handful of people in this forum would agree with u (might be wrong though), therefore if ur doubts aint shared by anyone that comes to mind i stick with my understanding, we all can be wrong but as for now lets agree to disagree.


What about my arguements have huge plot holes?
 

@captain kidd

And why think Usopp's haki is an eye related ability? The only thing that could make him perceive the auras of other people through walls - that we know of - is haki. Just because his eyes weren't covered (like Luffy's when he was training or like Fujitora (who is blind)) doesn't mean his eyes were a necessary factor in what he did.

Also, at this point there have been a number of Coo users who've never spoken of CoO as a sound. Katakuri, Fujitora and Luffy (iirc) have never said anything about sounds. Aisa, Coby and Eneru described it in terms of voices. We're seeing people are good at different things when it comes to CoO (except Eneru, who was good at everything), so it makes sense that different people emphasise different aspects of it.



Why eyes? Well if you go back and read the chapter the panels focus heavy on his eyes before and after revealing the auras.

See through walls? No he didnt, he saw through the window, the window he shot his shot through.
Also unrelated, to usopp, there is actualy heavy reason to speculate coo cant even see through walls.....some walls..... lets call them plot walls....at the very least if coo was as good as some think, zoro would of known exactly where pica is.

1st luffy has refrenced sounds. Go back and look he uses coo to determine law hadnt been killed by dd, he says "laws voice isnt gone he isnt dead" (oh gee maybe you should of used that ability to determine kryos didnt kill dd)

2nd the reason they dont refrence sound, is because at this point it would be beating a dead horse. I mean.... after zoro learned to cut through metal he never refrenced it again, didnt mean he stopped doing it.

Even if different people are good at different aspects there has never been an "eye aspect" of coo that usopp could of developed
 
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#187 Fulmine

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 03:25 AM

I can't stop laughing. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

 

Timeskip ended

Oda: Luffy learned Haki so I have to demonstrate it.

=> Luffy dodged Pacifista's laser, dodged Hody's water bullets, sensed Caribou in Neptune's castle whilst being in the party (a mood that should require no power usage, even more so for Luffy).

 

Dresrosa

Oda: Oh good, now that I established Luffy has Haki, time to ignore it. CoO's ability is too great it hinders story.

=> CoO is not mentioned or hinted to be used even once vs Doflamingo. Luffy didn't even bother to use it and could not distinguishe between DD and his thread clone (a situation that should demand CoO being used)

 

Whole Cake Island

Oda: I have this awesome idea of a character namely Katakuri. He has great CoO by design. Urgh, how can Luffy fight him then? Oh great, time to power-up Luffy.

=> well, Luffy acquired better CoO.

 

Wano

Oda: Let me show you Luffy's awesome newly discovered CoO. Beating the shit out of two fodders before they even know he noticed them from afar...Oh, shit, I need tension again. Let's forget CoO

=> Luffy didn't use CoO at all. And Gazelleman just kidnapped O-tama right in front of him...and this is the guy who randomly used CoO to check the whole castle when he was busy eating.

.

.

.

.

.

Plot-convenient as fuck...

 

I miss Skypiea...


Edited by Fulmine, 17 August 2018 - 03:25 AM.

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#188 captain kidd

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 08:50 PM

I can't stop laughing. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

 

Timeskip ended

Oda: Luffy learned Haki so I have to demonstrate it.

=> Luffy dodged Pacifista's laser, dodged Hody's water bullets, sensed Caribou in Neptune's castle whilst being in the party (a mood that should require no power usage, even more so for Luffy).

 

Dresrosa

Oda: Oh good, now that I established Luffy has Haki, time to ignore it. CoO's ability is too great it hinders story.

=> CoO is not mentioned or hinted to be used even once vs Doflamingo. Luffy didn't even bother to use it and could not distinguishe between DD and his thread clone (a situation that should demand CoO being used)

 

Whole Cake Island

Oda: I have this awesome idea of a character namely Katakuri. He has great CoO by design. Urgh, how can Luffy fight him then? Oh great, time to power-up Luffy.

=> well, Luffy acquired better CoO.

 

Wano

Oda: Let me show you Luffy's awesome newly discovered CoO. Beating the shit out of two fodders before they even know he noticed them from afar...Oh, shit, I need tension again. Let's forget CoO

=> Luffy didn't use CoO at all. And Gazelleman just kidnapped O-tama right in front of him...and this is the guy who randomly used CoO to check the whole castle when he was busy eating.

.

.

.

.

.

Plot-convenient as fuck...

 

I miss Skypiea...

 

 

it really is color of plot. such a game changing ability the only way it can exist in OP is under very controlled situations like Enel in skypiea, or with very good writing.

 

my personal idea, I used to joke with people when i was younger and watching anime was acceptable, I would say that in DBZ the Z fighters battle plan in all 4 arc was "wait for goku" vegeta wrecking shit, wait for goku to return from the dead, ginue force killing fools, wait for goku to arrive on namak, freeza beating up vegeta and picklo, wait for goku to get out of the pod, cell has a torunment, wait for goku (and surprise gohan is the hero we need....) you get the point.

 

Oda could do that. Luffy is officially powerful enough that no arc can ever give the same threats as they could before he was commander level. so have sanji or franky lead the charge, they go in first for some reason and luffy is held up or delayed or gets lost. take luffy out of the story until all the minor villains luffy would run train on are defeated by the minor SH crew.

 

2 chapters ago we were all thinking "how is hawkins going to escape this without getting one shot" but if luffy was still lost on the beach somewhere, and that was franky leading chopper and nami, suddenly we are worried for the crew's safety again. 

This chapter we have a goofy looking lion version of......quade? no quade was arnold's character name...... you know who i am talking about right? that weird mutant from total recall that lived on a guys stomach..... quando? kuato!!! thats the little stomach bugs name.....ok so this chapter we have lion kuato and jimbe disguised as a sumo wrestler, and the fact that luffy is here makes there zero threat. hell if a commander was here there would probably still be zero threat.

 

 

but sadly Oda is not good enough a writer to follow anyone other then luffy.


 
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#189 Kid Frost

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 11:15 AM

This means you are telling me the weakest sh has better haki then Hawkins.


I might agree with you if you were talking about armament haki specifically but there doesn't seem to be any correlation between how strong any given character is and whether they have observation haki.
Three of the four emperors are not even confirmed to have it (Blackbeard, Big Mom, and Kaido) and the only other one (Shanks) was just recently revealed as having it a few weeks ago. Out of all of the Yonko commanders from all four crews only Katakuri has it for sure and there are plenty of other powerful characters such as Doflamingo, Jinbe, and Magellen that we don't know if they have it or not.
On the other hand Rebecca, Usopp, Tashigi, and Otohime all definitely have observation haki and none of them are considered powerhouses of the same caliber as the aforementioned people. I think it's highly probable that whether you have observation haki and how proficient you are with is a matter of which haki type you specialize in much more than power level.
 

Ok so then we can both agree either Hawkins has garbage haki(weaker then fodder priest satori), which makes him a disappointment of a NW captain


Other than Luffy and Law which New World captains even have observation haki for you to use that as a measuring stick?
 

If usopp has haki, which he doesn't

(Ignore that arguement if, like me, you don't believe usopp has haki, he clearly doesn't and you are insane if you think the weakest sh has haki)


The databook has straight out confirmed that Usopp does indeed have observation haki; I know you were weirdly adamant about him not having it for some reason but at some point you have to admit you were wrong. :shrug:
IIRC you also got into a long debate with @Tale about observation haki being able to sense emotions which was also wrong...so maybe stay away from haki debates for a while.


Edited by Kid Frost, 21 November 2018 - 11:16 AM.

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#190 KUROkami

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 12:00 PM

Damn
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#191 capu

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 02:06 PM


The databook has straight out confirmed that Usopp does indeed have observation haki; I know you were weirdly adamant about him not having it for some reason but at some point you have to admit you were wrong.

Huh which one did? 

 

I mean i too argued with @captain kidd about Usoops "skill" being CoO or not. Nevertheless i never read anything close to a confirmation. Can u share the link pls?

 

Btw @captain kidd u dont need to sum up ur main points, i remember disagreeing with most of them  :P  , although i do not remember the points themselfs (sry, i am a bit ashamed), thing is i enjoy ur opinions even in times i dont agree with them. Often enough u simply explain ur view in such a great way that it makes even the stupidest shit (not talking about any of ur views here, just to make the point:) worth reading.

 

Although i really need to admit that i aint someone that can follow a discussion, and take part in it, for more than 3 or 4 long posts, i apologize for that, but somehow it takes too much time for me when reading OMF in the morning before work, or in the late evening when i already am in bed most of the times (or just got home totally drunk after having a party :D ). Therefore its become commonplace for me at OMF that i start agreeing to disagree earlier than to run in circles for what feels to me like forever and keeps me from doing important or fun stuff.


Edited by capu, 21 November 2018 - 02:11 PM.

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#192 Candles

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 03:04 PM

Huh which one did?


She's talking about the vivre card databooks; the Strawhats cards were in the first batch and Usopp's vivre card confirms he has observation haki.
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#193 capu

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 03:50 PM

@Kid Frost , @Candles thx to the both of u for the confirmation part about Usoops CoO, i was pretty thorough at reading through Vol. 2 and 3, but seem to have missed quite a lot of Vol. 1... dunno kind of odd.

 

Quick question concerning Vol.1:

What does he mean with the part of:

"There are four vacant spots between Brook and Roger. One could be for Jinbei, but what about the rest? Future nakama, or simply other characters?"

What is he referring here to?, i dont get the reference at all...


Edited by capu, 21 November 2018 - 04:22 PM.


#194 D.Hyuga

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 05:31 PM


"There are four vacant spots between Brook and Roger. One could be for Jinbei, but what about the rest? Future nakama, or simply other characters?"

What is he referring here to?, i dont get the reference at all...

 

I think it is about timeline, there were 4 big shots between Brook's time and Roger's time. :shrug:


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#195 captain kidd

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 10:50 AM

I might agree with you if you were talking about armament haki specifically but there doesn't seem to be any correlation between how strong any given character is and whether they have observation haki.
Three of the four emperors are not even confirmed to have it (Blackbeard, Big Mom, and Kaido) and the only other one (Shanks) was just recently revealed as having it a few weeks ago. Out of all of the Yonko commanders from all four crews only Katakuri has it for sure and there are plenty of other powerful characters such as Doflamingo, Jinbe, and Magellen that we don't know if they have it or not.
On the other hand Rebecca, Usopp, Tashigi, and Otohime all definitely have observation haki and none of them are considered powerhouses of the same caliber as the aforementioned people. I think it's highly probable that whether you have observation haki and how proficient you are with is a matter of which haki type you specialize in much more than power level.


Other than Luffy and Law which New World captains even have observation haki for you to use that as a measuring stick?


The databook has straight out confirmed that Usopp does indeed have observation haki; I know you were weirdly adamant about him not having it for some reason but at some point you have to admit you were wrong. :shrug:
IIRC you also got into a long debate with @Tale about observation haki being able to sense emotions which was also wrong...so maybe stay away from haki debates for a while.


Just looked It up, i was wrong.......wait the data books also said sabo was dead........no let's take this lose gracefully... I was wrong, usopp does have haki.

As for the measuring stick i use all VA who are confirmed to have haki. If the VA who have been performing very poorly have haki the NQ captains who don't suck surely need it. And as we saw with the dog tooth fight, there comes a point when you need a level of CoO or you just cant fight your opponent.

Also if you are right about none of the emperors except shanks having haki that would probably make dogtooth the next PK. Or at least dogtooth would of done my plan and instead of relying on pudding to bake a cake he would of taken over the BM pirates.

Ya the emotion thing.....forgive me if I didn't want to think that the super power that once made enel seem like an invincible god is now used by fodder to more strongly emphasize with other fodder......
everyone is so quick to mock Superman's wall repair vision but when it comes to this garbage people turn a blind eye.....
 
Oh and as far as the "weirdly adamant about him not having it for some reason"

There was no reason to think he did. It would be the same as seeing someone take a punch and assuming they are a coa user, or seeing someone dodge an attack and assuming they are a coo user (which luffy with did with rebecca). Usopp described it in different ways, we saw both coby and Asia covering their ears so they didn't have to hear the awful feeling of when a voice disappeared, yet usopp used his eyes to see auras..... they had so many differences and only 1 similarity "they both allowed the user to perceive far away people"
but like I said...... grace........ if oda wants to describe CoO in 100 different ways I don't care.
 
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#196 Abaroxa

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 12:34 PM

Based on chap 894 we can split CoO into 3 types:
*Voice - Hear
*Aura - See
*Emotions - Feel

Just by being a pro in one of them you can influence the plot. Facts.

I also have difficulty separating regular dodges from haki dodges.

#197 Kid Frost

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 01:55 PM

Oh and as far as the "weirdly adamant about him not having it for some reason"

There was no reason to think he did.


Don't misunderstand me, I've always known what your position was and I didn't necessarily disagree with the overall point. Personally I thought he had haki from the beginning but I could also see how it was ambiguous enough that it might have been an entirely new ability; Just among the East Blue Crew, Luffy, Zoro, Nami, and Sanji all have at least one special non devil fruit and non haki ability and across the series there are plenty more, so it would actually make sense if Usopp had one too.

I understood all of that however you went from the position of it may or may not be haki to the position of it's absolutely, definitely, 100% not haki and anybody that thinks it is must be stupid or insane. The latter is what I considered unusually adamant not because of the point itself but because you made it seem like the idea of Usopp having haki was extremely far fetched if not outright impossible even though it was still a possibility (and ultimately the truth).

Anyway while I disagree with some of the other stuff (especially about Katakuri), I'll have to save that for another day (preferably a non holiday) as I'm too busy to want to get into that now.
 

Therefore its become commonplace for me at OMF that i start agreeing to disagree earlier than to run in circles for what feels to me like forever and keeps me from doing important or fun stuff.


:lolxg: Same...ten years ago it was much different but in recent years if a debate starts to go back and forth more than a few posts I'll just drop it...The amount of time and mental energy I have to invest in such thing is severely limited.


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#198 Fulmine

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 02:12 PM

Seeing actual aura shape may be the next step after listening voice, though that means either Skypiea forgo that step completely or they are special or Oda retcons LOL Not that it matters much in 1vs1 but if Enel had been able to see shape he wouldn't have needed to ask himself who was it that was on his ship.

 

Ay, then Fujitora probably has CoO, too, so when Fujitora said the battle would take place on Dresrosa was he channeling Enel-sama's great prediction power or his Future Sight is so much greater than Katakuri's it even saw minutes into the future? O__o


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#199 Abaroxa

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 03:52 PM

@Fulmine
If seeing aura is superior to hearing voices then sensing emotions is the worse of them.

#200 Fulmine

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 01:28 AM

@Fulmine
If seeing aura is superior to hearing voices then sensing emotions is the worse of them.

I guess. It's a nice bonus skill though. Kinda like Ichigo's ''I can see the HEART of those I fight''. It's a concept in Japan apparently and several shounen main characters have it.


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