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[Discussion] Haki (Part 3)


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#21 Madara D Dragon

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 02:28 AM

no.... Oda should of written nothing

 

and just let us watch Zoro cut pica down with this superior fighting ability.

 

 

 

Everything Oda writes has a meaning, when he writes something it is not just to fill empty space. here let me show you.

 

 

Pica "my Haki will protect me"

Zoro "not if mine is stronger"

 

Pica "My haki will protect me"

Zoro "not if I am stronger"

 

notice; they both take the same space BUT, one implies that to break haki, one needs stronger haki. but the second implies that to break haki one only needs be stronger.

 

 

 

 

 

ok lets make this real simple.

 

 

either 

 

A- your telling me that Oda is a 3rd rate hack that writes  only there to fill space, and doesn't think about the long term implications of what he writes.

 

or

 

B- you are saying Zoro, and therefore Oda, is wrong about how Haki works........

He writes for us to see that Haki is the deciding factor, as petite fleur said. So, yes, I'll go with sloan and say it's option C... :meh:


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#22 Fulmine

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 03:35 AM

He writes for us to see that Haki is the deciding factor, as petite fleur said. So, yes, I'll go with sloan and say it's option C... :meh:

The thing is in-universe, how did Zolo know?


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#23 Madara D Dragon

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 03:58 AM

The thing is in-universe, how did Zolo know?

With his sharingan!!
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#24 Fleet

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 05:36 AM

With his sharingan!!


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#25 Petite Fleur

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 08:06 PM

The thing is in-universe, how did Zolo know?

He doesn't have to know, but he could have said impression from knowing his sword, without haki, and knowing the general strength of haki for comparison.


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#26 captain kidd

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 09:48 PM

C, Zoro can't cut Pica without haki

 

 

hodi was able to cut luffy without haki.......

 

still a contradiction......


 

He writes for us to see that Haki is the deciding factor, as petite fleur said. So, yes, I'll go with sloan and say it's option C... :meh:

 

how.......on gods green earth...... would zoro know that??????????

 

does zoro know the strenght of pica's haki? does zoro know the strength of pica's defense? no.......

 

 

 

all zoro knows is that when it comes to haki. the only way to break it is stronger haki...

 

THAT is what zoro told us readers.....


 
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#27 Petite Fleur

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 09:48 PM

hodi was able to cut luffy without haki.......

 

still a contradiction......

Not a contradiction because of a distinction.


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#28 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 05:18 AM

He doesn't have to know, but he could have said impression from knowing his sword, without haki, and knowing the general strength of haki for comparison.

contradiction in the same sentence?


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#29 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 08:20 AM

contradiction in the same sentence?

Nupe, each section refers to different things. The first is about Pica directly, the second is about haki by itself and in general use of others.


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#30 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 08:27 AM

Nupe, each section refers to different things. The first is about Pica directly, the second is about haki by itself and in general use of others.

But the only in question here is Pica...what's that about others? I don't understand...


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#31 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 08:33 AM

But the only in question here is Pica...what's that about others? I don't understand...

If Zoro is aware of the limits of his non-haki self versus average haki practitioners, then he has general knowledge to make the assumption, when he sees a technique like full body hardening, that he'll need to use his own haki to cut them.


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#32 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 10:18 AM

If Zoro is aware of the limits of his non-haki self versus average haki practitioners, then he has general knowledge to make the assumption, when he sees a technique like full body hardening, that he'll need to use his own haki to cut them.

Yeah, but that does not explain how he can say Pica can win if Pica's Haki is stronger, unless non-Haki Zolo= non-Haki Pica which I'm not really adamantly opposed to but it seems all of you think that way.


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#33 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 10:24 AM

Yeah, but that does not explain how he can say Pica can win if Pica's Haki is stronger, unless non-Haki Zolo= non-Haki Pica which I'm not really adamantly opposed to but it seems all of you think that way.

That's not how that works, though. Zoro could be stronger than Pica when both aren't using haki and still need haki to cut Pica when the executive has his haki up.


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#34 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 10:28 AM

That's not how that works, though. Zoro could be stronger than Pica when both aren't using haki and still need haki to cut Pica when the executive has his haki up.

Yes, but that's not the thing we debate here...I never said anything about Zolo knowing he had to use Haki...what I ask is how did he know if Pica's Haki is stronger Pica would win...


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#35 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 10:39 AM

Yes, but that's not the thing we debate here...I never said anything about Zolo knowing he had to use Haki...what I ask is how did he know if Pica's Haki is stronger Pica would win...

They're the same answer. If Zoro, with haki, can't cut Pica, with haki, then it will become impossible for Zoro to beat Pica directly.


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#36 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 10:46 AM

They're the same answer. If Zoro, with haki, can't cut Pica, with haki, then it will become impossible for Zoro to beat Pica directly.

No, they are not...I'm pretty sure the question at hand is just Haki.


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#37 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 10:50 AM

No, they are not...I'm pretty sure the question at hand is just Haki.

That doesn't make any sense.


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#38 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 11:25 AM

That doesn't make any sense.

Well, unlike Law's slash which is a huge topic for what constitute it and and by what percentage, CoA more or DF mastery more or just pure DF power, Zolo vs Pica is incredibly simple: CoA+Physicality (Pica's durability and Zolo's slash strength). There is no DF power concerned nor any special technique like BoAT as far as we know.

 

So it's:

ZoloPhysicality (ZP) +ZoloCoA (ZA) vs PicaPhysicality (PP) +PicaCoA (PA)

 

Now what Zolo said is if PA>ZA, Pica would win. But that does not make sense because clearly there are still ZP and PP in the equation.

Aside from its magical ability to fight DFs, CoA is nothing more than an added armor that helps hit harder, so just physical addition, as Rayleigh said. So logic dictates that a character does not even need CoA and can still win against someone who has if his strength is much better than the opponent, enough so that the opponent's CoA would not help. Luffy has proven this by his fight against the Boa sisters where he overpowered Marigold's (or the other one) CoA-coated palm with his non-CoA kick.

 

So what Zolo said can only make sense if:

1. ZP=PP => if PA>ZA then the right side of the equation is bigger than the left side. Which I don't really have a problem with. That would make Pica quite competent LOL but it seems you and Sloan or Madara D Dragon all agree that even at base Zolo>Pica (ZP>(>>)PP)?

 

2. Zolo knows for sure he's stronger than Pica at base (Zolo can probably estimate Pica's physicality aka PP because Pica had once left the statue and fought Zolo with his sword IIRC), ergo ZP>PP, which means for the right side to be bigger than the left side, PA has to be > ZA. But here's a problem: If the difference between ZP and PP is bigger than the difference between PA and ZA, then even if PA is > ZA, the right side may not be bigger than the left side. Let use number to illustrate this:

ZP=10

PP=7

ZA =3

PA=5

ZP+ZA=13 > PP+PA=12 and hence Zolo still wins even if Pica's CoA is better.

 

Of course, you can argue that if Zolo knows PP and he of course knows his own physicality and CoA level aka ZP and ZA, it stands to reason that he can work out PA and hence his statement. Sure, but Zolo did not say Pica's CoA had to be much stronger or several times stronger than him (in order to compensate for the PP<<<ZP). He said that Pica's CoA just had to be stronger...so as long as PA>ZA, no matter how small the difference, Pica would win. Which brings us to point no.1 again...

 

So yeah, it may be very nitpicking but that's the gist of it. Zolo's statement does not make sense unless Zolo=Pica at base or Oda retcons his CoA vs Strength scenes and now Haki is the only thing matters...

so follow @captain kidd 's post, I either pick option A (Oda is not thorough with his dialogue) or D: Zolo's slash strength = Pica's durability.

 

There is a difference between ''the only factor'' and ''the deciding factor'', sure, but that is only when it comes to stuffs like job interview or something...where they judge you by many things and standards (porfolio, experience, uni grades, your conduct etc.) but ultimately there are a few that are significantly more important than others. But in this case, there are only 2 factors, Physicality and CoA, and none is more important than the other...and if a character states you only need one to win...which means you might as well cross out the other off the equation, which is wrong given Oda's past scenes (Luffy vs Boa sisters).


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#39 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 11:43 AM


He said that Pica's CoA just had to be stronger...so as long as PA>ZA, no matter how small the difference, Pica would win. Which brings us to point no.1 again...

 

It being stronger is saying the same as much, a little, greatly, vastly, modicumly, etc. A blank statement carries all and no connotations. So, to me, zoro is saying "regardless of the scale(eg from slightly to vastly), it has to be stronger than my own(to which I confidently hold in high regard)" with that use of stronger, while he could be saying something else entirely in your head. It is all, simply put, our own inserted connotation and to that end any contradictions the statement appears to make are all invented by us and don't actually exist in the manga.

 


So yeah, it may be very nitpicking but that's the gist of it. Zolo's statement does not make sense unless Zolo=Pica at base or Oda retcons his CoA vs Strength scenes and now Haki is the only thing matters...

 

Zoro could be vastly stronger(like a 10 v 1) and haki still play a legitimate role if Pica's haki is significant enough to surpass just that 10. It could literally just give him "one zoro" worth of "power level" added on to his one and bam, haki is the deciding factor. The reason that numbers are arbitrary is that they can be used to show whatever you want to mean.

 


There is a difference between ''the only factor'' and ''the deciding factor'', sure, but that is only when it comes to stuffs like job interview or something...

 

That's not really how that works. The statements both share words in common, but their meanings are different and pretty much mutually exclusive. While they can be related in terms of consideration "for a while x was the only factor, but the deciding factor was when you introduced y and nobody realized that it mattered" or some other such situation, they're two different things.

 


which is wrong given Oda's past scenes (Luffy vs Boa sisters).

 

Which is why it was the deciding factor and not the only factor and this isn't some haki retcon ala Kidd's assertions.


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#40 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 11:48 AM


It being stronger is saying the same as much, a little, greatly, vastly, modicumly, etc. A blank statement carries all and no connotations. So, to me, zoro is saying "regardless of the scale(eg from slightly to vastly), it has to be stronger than my own(to which I confidently hold in high regard)" with that use of stronger, while he could be saying something else entirely in your head. It is all, simply put, our own inserted connotation and to that end any contradictions the statement appears to make are all invented by us and don't actually exist in the manga.

So that's why I said I could pick option A.


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