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[Discussion] Haki (Part 3)


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#41 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 12:12 PM

So that's why I said I could pick option A.

I'm simply stating that Zoro's statement makes perfect sense, any sense removed from it happens on your part.


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#42 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 12:25 PM

I'm simply stating that Zoro's statement makes perfect sense, any sense removed from it happens on your part.

Nah, that's only if you assume Oda does not make mistake, that you can read Zolo's statement as all-encompassing (slightly/vastly/whatever-ly stronger), which I am not inclined to do the same. My stand is ''let see...can go either way''. I'm just trying to show that captain kidd's point is not unfounded. You choose to understand Zolo's statement in a way that makes the manga has no problem, captain kidd reads it literally and sees problem, neither is better as of now. Simply preference.


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#43 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 12:33 PM


Nah, that's only if you assume Oda does not make mistake,

 

Not does not, did not. Oda didn't make a mistake, but he's not incapable of it. Even if you're open to his ability to make mistakes, it does not mean that everything he does is a mistake. For example, when you make a mistake, blaming the author is not a viable solution to erase said mistake.

 


I'm just trying to show that captain kidd's point is not unfounded.

 

It is unfounded because of the precedent set before it. It's not unthinkable, because he thought of it, but it's impossible within the manga.

 


captain kidd reads it literally and sees problem

 

That's not reading it literally, because the literal statement is blank. If you don't insert any connotation into the words, they still mean "everything included" and not "nothing included." Any problem related to the statement is thus invented.

 

The fight itself is one step above that. Nothing about haki contradicts haki in that fight. Again, you have to take a statement that says "this will decide the fight" and insert a meaning that was never conveyed, especially in the literal translation.

 

Kidd's entire argument so far has relied on inventing a problem that doesn't exist. It has no real foundation in the manga itself. The only precedent present is the statement "Oda made a mistake before, so he can make one again" and even that, by itself, is not an argument for a case, because you have to be able to show how the manga is doing the thing and for this particular thing, it is simply not doing it at all.


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#44 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 12:46 PM


Not does not, did not. Oda didn't make a mistake

yeah, wrong tense there...

 

 


he's not incapable of it

Yeah, hence my stand.

 

 


Even if you're open to his ability to make mistakes, it does not mean that everything he does is a mistake.

Sure. The thing is both you and captain kidd, while on different sides, are so adamant that it has to be he made on/he didn't make one. None is better than the other

 

 


It is unfounded because of the precedent set before it. It's not unthinkable, because he thought of it, but it's impossible within the manga.

Which one?

 

 


That's not reading it literally, because the literal statement is blank. If you don't insert any connotation into the words, they still mean "everything included" and not "nothing included."

I don't think so...your understanding of ''literal'' has problem here. And even if I give you that, in that ''everything included'' there is a case where it does not work...and that case is the most important.

I mean...if the university says that I have to get more than 5/10 to be accepted, then all I have to do is get a mark higher than 5. 5.1, 5.2, 5.000001, 5.1134 etc. any of them will do (there may be no mark like that but for the sake of argument). Now, if they want me to get higher than 9/10 then they should say so from the start...

The way you choose to think of Zolo's statement in an all-encompassing manner has more problem than captain kidd by your own words, because it's you who have to invent meaning to make Oda not make a mistake...


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#45 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 12:58 PM


Sure. The thing is both you and captain kidd, while on different sides, are so adamant that it has to be he made on/he didn't make one. None is better than the other

 

Only if you feel that Oda has made as many mistakes as he hasn't. As you have pointed out yourself, there is precedent in how haki works. At least for CoA, it is consistent and has been consistent. The argument "no it's not, because Oda can make mistakes so this specific instance is a mistake because I said so" is neither an argument any foundation in the manga, nor is it a stronger argument than "the manga directly contradicts your claim."

 


Which one?

 

Luffy overpowering CoA with physical power, for example.

 


I don't think so...your understanding of ''literal'' has problem here. And even if I give you that, in that ''everything included'' there is a case where it does not work...and that case is the most important.

 

That's the thing, is that there aren't any cases where it doesn't work. Within the range, from "it only has to be a little stronger" to "it has to be vastly superior" it remains consistent that Pica's haki would have to overpower Zoro's as the deciding factor of the match, and Zoro could range from just as strong, to vastly stronger and be consistent with the statement.

 


I mean...if the university says that I have to get more than 5/10 to be accepted, then all I have to do is get a mark higher than 5. 5.1, 5.2, 5.000001, 5.1134 etc. any of them will do (there may be no mark like that but for the sake of argument). Now, if they want me to get higher than 9/10 then they should say so from the start...

 

None of this has any relation to what we're talking about as far as I can tell.

 

It's not related to Zoro's statement because he's not dropping an arbitrary number. He's saying "in this one area you must be better than me." The example to remain consistent would be if the university said you had to score higher than x student in a specific category to get in.

 


The way you choose to think of Zolo's statement in an all-encompassing manner has more problem than captain kidd by your own words, because it's you who have to invent meaning to make Oda not make a mistake...

 

The problem in the statement, as I've pointed out, would be an invention of your own, not mine, not Oda's, etc. It's not even that there's a problem in that fact that it's an interpretable statement. My words were simply pointing out that it only contradicts your math, when your math is specifically structured to be contradicted by it. You have to make the statement contradict you in order for it to do so, because it doesn't do it by itself.

 

There are zero problems with my interpretation of events, especially compared to Kidd's.


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#46 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 01:25 PM


Only if you feel that Oda has made as many mistakes as he hasn't.

No...just that he has made mistakes. That's enough to consider (not outright claiming).

 


Luffy overpowering CoA with physical power, for example.

I used that in my post. How does that make your stand any better though? That just reinforces more that physicality is as important as CoA...

 

 


That's the thing, is that there aren't any cases where it doesn't work. Within the range, from "it only has to be a little stronger" to "it has to be vastly superior" it remains consistent that Pica's haki would have to overpower Zoro's as the deciding factor of the match, and Zoro could range from just as strong, to vastly stronger and be consistent with the statement.

But only that one case where it doesn't work matters. You just need to point out one and the whole sentence makes no sense...

 

 


None of this has any relation to what we're talking about as far as I can tell.



It's not related to Zoro's statement because he's not dropping an arbitrary number. He's saying "in this one area you must be better than me." The example to remain consistent would be if the university said you had to score higher than x student in a specific category to get in.

He actually did. Which is his own CoA level. That's effectively giving a number (not fixed, mind you, since willpower can vary but it can only has one value in one moment)

 

The number is just there to show that there's a threshold to be bested. And for Zolo, he made that threshold his CoA. In the same line of the example I give, all Zolo meant was Pica's CoA just needs to be better than him, no matter how small the difference is...which is ridiculous unless Zolo's physicality = Pica's physicality because as long as Zolo's physicality is also better than Pica's physicality no matter how small, they are equal...if Zolo's physicality is even better, then there's no point saying what he said (as I have shown that if ZPis >>>PP, PA>ZA does not matter).

 

So yeah, Zolo should have said ''not if your Haki is much better than mine'' at least (the same way a university should have said ''you need 8/10 to get in here'' instead of ''get more than 5/10'' and then ''oh actually we mean ''8/10 but you know what, that is included in ''more than 5/10'', too''. WTF?)

 

 

 


The problem in the statement, as I've pointed out, would be an invention of your own, not mine, not Oda's, etc. It's not even that there's a problem in that fact that it's an interpretable statement. My words were simply pointing out that it only contradicts your math, when your math is specifically structured to be contradicted by it. You have to make the statement contradict you in order for it to do so, because it doesn't do it by itself.



There are zero problems with my interpretation of events, especially compared to Kidd's.

It contradicts my Maths where?


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#47 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 01:37 PM


No...just that he has made mistakes. That's enough to consider (not outright claiming).

 

Only when evidence is present to at least suggest such a thing happened. In this particular case there is no evidence, nor suggestion. It's literally one dude saying a thing happened when it didn't.

 


I used that in my post. How does that make your stand any better though? That just reinforces more that physicality is as important as CoA...

 

A statement I never contradicted, and a statement that supports my argument which is literally "Oda isn't contradicting CoA in the Zoro vs. Pica fight."

 


But only that one case where it doesn't work matters. You just need to point out one and the whole sentence makes no sense...

 

Luckily there are zero cases, which is what I just said.

 


if Zolo's physicality is even better, then there's no point saying what he said

 

Unless Pica's haki is very strong.

 


So yeah, Zolo should have said ''not if your Haki is much better than mine'' at least

 

That's irrelevant, because the value is something inserted. What he's said fits, even when read literally. To use your example, the university isn't giving you any number, they're just telling you to score high. How high is something you then invent yourself arbitrarily, but the value was never actually stated.

 


It contradicts my Maths where?

 

It doesn't, you do. You have to make it contradict your math. Any point where the statement contradicts your math is something you're doing, not something the statement is doing.


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#48 captain kidd

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 09:12 PM

If Zoro is aware of the limits of his non-haki self versus average haki practitioners, then he has general knowledge to make the assumption, when he sees a technique like full body hardening, that he'll need to use his own haki to cut them.

 

WHAT!?!?!?

 

that is your logic for how Zoro thinks he needs haki to cut pica?

 

 

based on the "average haki practitioner" you have to be kidding me................... 

 

 

 

 

 

please tell me, what is the "Average Haki Practitioner".....Boo said he has CoA, is he average? or is he below average? 

 

 

also, WHEN did zoro have time to learn what "average haki" is, the first time he was introduced to it was my mihawk..... did mihawk fight zoro and say "Ok zoro, this is the average ammount of haki you will run into out on the seas........" or are you telling me Mihawk carted in loads of enemies for zoro to fight so he could get a understanding of what "average haki" is.

 

and if you say yes to either of those options, why on earth would zoro need to know what average haki is? he was already told to use CoA at all times to stop his blade from being scratched.... that is unnecessary training...... and it is worthless...... and the only reason Mihawk would ever do something so pointless is if you called up Oda and forced him to write that in his story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

what was said was CLEAR, Zoro said that he needs stronger haki to cut through haki. why is this even up for debate? to tell me Zoro said anything else there is to put words into zoro's (and therefore Oda's) mouth


Edited by captain kidd, 11 April 2015 - 09:13 PM.

 
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#49 Petite Fleur

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 09:26 PM


WHAT!?!?!?



that is your logic for how Zoro thinks he needs haki to cut pica?





based on the "average haki practitioner" you have to be kidding me...................

 

It was just a passing thought. He could also have sensed Pica's strength, which is an aspect of haki that Rayleigh used pre-time skip.

 


what was said was CLEAR, Zoro said that he needs stronger haki to cut through haki. why is this even up for debate? to tell me Zoro said anything else there is to put words into zoro's (and therefore Oda's) mouth

 

That's the issue. It was clear in what Zoro said, you're just wrong about it. You'll say the same about me, hence the dispute.


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#50 TrolonoaZoro

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 11:00 PM

If we interpret Zoro's comment as more of a "For you to be able to tank this thing, your haki would need to be considerably stronger than mine because I'm about to one shot with my slashes" and less of a "zoro haki> your haki and THEN thus successful cut" I don't think anyone would disagree. 

 

Essentially, what Zoro said is better translated as  "If your haki is stronger than Zoro as a whole, that is" but that's an awkward sentence.

 

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#51 Fulmine

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 11:50 PM


Only when evidence is present to at least suggest such a thing happened. In this particular case there is no evidence, nor suggestion. It's literally one dude saying a thing happened when it didn't.

The suggestion is the dialogue itself. It can be understood in more than one way and different people choose different way to understand it. None is better than the other...

Plus, it's not that ''Oda has made mistake in X and so he would in Y''. It's ''I can see the possibility that Oda makes a mistake cause...he's capable of it''...

 

 


A statement I never contradicted, and a statement that supports my argument which is literally "Oda isn't contradicting CoA in the Zoro vs. Pica fight."

How? Only when it's Zolo's physicality=Pica's physicality

 

 


Luckily there are zero cases, which is what I just said.

There is. The one where Pica's CoA is ''minimumly'' better than Zolo's, though there isn't a number for that

 

 


Unless Pica's haki is very strong.

How strong? That is a problem. Things are relative. Zolo can think of his Haki as very strong, too...

 

 


That's irrelevant, because the value is something inserted. What he's said fits, even when read literally. To use your example, the university isn't giving you any number, they're just telling you to score high. How high is something you then invent yourself arbitrarily, but the value was never actually stated.

As I said, Zolo didn't say that. He said Pica's CoA just needs to be better than him, which is effectively giving a number.

 

 


You have to make it contradict your math

And where?


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#52 Raphie7

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 04:59 AM

Problem with Haki is that it lost importance and intrigue that it had before. Not because it was explained, but because almost every person in the New World has it. But most importantly, it became less interesting if it's only about: "mine is better, faster, stronger, harder because that's the way it is." On the other hand, Gear Fourth is something that exemplifies versatility. Devil fruits are better realized because they incite the user to be more skillful with what they have. That's always far more interesting.


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#53 Petite Fleur

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 01:58 PM


The suggestion is the dialogue itself. It can be understood in more than one way and different people choose different way to understand it. None is better than the other...

 

Not necessarily. There aren't an infinite number of valid interpretations for a sentence, even if there are an infinite number of possible interpretations. If one interpretation has nothing to do with the dialogue then it is an interpretation, but not a valid one.

 


Plus, it's not that ''Oda has made mistake in X and so he would in Y''. It's ''I can see the possibility that Oda makes a mistake cause...he's capable of it''...

 

It's the evidence of why Y has happened in this case, so the first statement is the accurate portrayal of what's happening ehre.

 


How? Only when it's Zolo's physicality=Pica's physicality

 

The statement itself ranges small to huge, so the different in physicality can be small to huge. In all of those cases, the differences only need to be applied to the numbers, and the numbers themselves can be created to serve any argument on the board. There is no contradiction, because there's a clear explanation.

 


There is. The one where Pica's CoA is ''minimumly'' better than Zolo's, though there isn't a number for that

 

That doesn't contradict, though. Here's the issue - you made up all the numbers. They literally have zero evidence. If you said "Pica power level is 7, and Zoro's is 3, so Oda having Zoro win is a plot hole" it would have as much evidence as your number proof - specifically because numbers are arbitrary and irrelevant.

 

The statement itself doesn't contradict anything. It's merely a small to wide area of which the two can exist. Any example outside of that isn't a contradiction in the statement, but you contradicting the statement and then blaming it on Oda. The statement is not, and cannot, be false - but your arguments to falsify it can be. Ergo, you have to invent contradictions in order for there to be one, because the statement doesn't create them naturally by itself.

 


How strong? That is a problem. Things are relative. Zolo can think of his Haki as very strong, too...

 

Irrelevant, it just has to be very strong relative to Zoro.

 


As I said, Zolo didn't say that. He said Pica's CoA just needs to be better than him, which is effectively giving a number.

 

It's not. As you pointed out, there is a large range of possible numbers. Trying to determine which one is being used here is silly, because no number is actually being used. Even if you found a range for it, you'd only be identifying what was already said "this is the range of relevant strength relative to this conflict about this contextually specific thing."

 

You can, basically, identify 70-79, but what number was within that range specifically was never stated, hinted at, nor implied.


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#54 captain kidd

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 05:54 PM

It was just a passing thought. He could also have sensed Pica's strength, which is an aspect of haki that Rayleigh used pre-time skip.

 

 

 

 

That's the issue. It was clear in what Zoro said, you're just wrong about it. You'll say the same about me, hence the dispute.

 

yep your right, zoro is at rey level haki use......

 

 

I want to know how you are getting what you are. how can what zoro said be anything else then its literal translation?

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"as long as your haki is stronger than mine"

 

COME ON??!?!?!!?!!? 

 

how is that not clear as day that zoro is comparing just his haki to pica haki?????????

 

 

replace that with any other noun in the world and there is literally no confusion about what zoro is talking about.

 

"as long as your sword is stronger than mine"

"as long as your shield is stronger than mine"

"as long as your skin is stronger than mine"

"as long as your armor is stronger than mine"

"as long as your grammar skills is stronger than mine"

 

is there any question about the sentence????? what is being compared?????? why once we say haki is it suddenly in question????


 
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#55 Petite Fleur

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 05:38 PM


yep your right, zoro is at rey level haki use......

 

Not what was said. I said that sensing strength was an aspect of haki that was introduced.

 


how is that not clear as day that zoro is comparing just his haki to pica haki?????????

 

This was never contradicted. What was said by me was that Oda isn't contradicting haki by comparing Zoro and Pica's haki.


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#56 captain kidd

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 06:24 PM

Not what was said. I said that sensing strength was an aspect of haki that was introduced.

 

 

 

 

This was never contradicted. What was said by me was that Oda isn't contradicting haki by comparing Zoro and Pica's haki.

 

it was never introduced. when Rey explained haki he said it could "show your opponents location, their number, and even what they will do in the next few moments"

 

 

 

yes he is, Zoro and pica told us that for one to cut through haki, the opponent needs stronger haki then the haki he is cutting through. Luffy vs Hodi showed us that is straight up wrong......or hodi is a haki monster.


 
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#57 Petite Fleur

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:10 AM


it was never introduced. when Rey explained haki he said it could "show your opponents location, their number, and even what they will do in the next few moments"

 

He also said that there were 500 animals on the island, all stronger than Luffy.

 


yes he is, Zoro and pica told us that for one to cut through haki, the opponent needs stronger haki then the haki he is cutting through. Luffy vs Hodi showed us that is straight up wrong......or hodi is a haki monster.

 

Incorrect. Zoro told us that the deciding factor, not the only factor, in his fight with Pica would be haki.


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#58 captain kidd

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:33 AM

He also said that there were 500 animals on the island, all stronger than Luffy.

 

 

 

 

Incorrect. Zoro told us that the deciding factor, not the only factor, in his fight with Pica would be haki.

 

that means nothing...... he could have been to the island before...or just be guessing, I personally find it unbelievable it was such an even number............. and even if you are going to tell me rey did do what you are saying he did, then I am going to tell you he is the only person in OP to ever demonstrate that ability. Meaning I will now refer you to my previous post, Zoro is now at rey levels of Haki.

 

 

no he did not......... Zoro's comment had NOTHING to do with the "deciding factor" Zoro's comment was a DIRECT RESPONSE to pica's comment about his haki protecting him from zoro.

 

zoro had no way of knowing the strength of pica's haki, because as we have seen from everyone in mf, CoO at the very least, CAN NOT detect haki, or else no one would be surprised by the fact that luffy can use CoC


 
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#59 Petite Fleur

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:41 AM


that means nothing...... he could have been to the island before...or just be guessing, I personally find it unbelievable it was such an even number............. and even if you are going to tell me rey did do what you are saying he did, then I am going to tell you he is the only person in OP to ever demonstrate that ability. Meaning I will now refer you to my previous post, Zoro is now at rey levels of Haki.

 

That's not how that works. Techniques don't require power, but the power of techniques do. Zoro could still know it, and he was already capable of sensing people via haki, like he did with spotting Vergo. Getting a gauge on power doesn't seem as far a stretch, so him doing it doesn't make him "Rayleigh tier" but just "someone who is capable of doing a thing."

 


no he did not......... Zoro's comment had NOTHING to do with the "deciding factor" Zoro's comment was a DIRECT RESPONSE to pica's comment about his haki protecting him from zoro.

 

Yes. Pica said "My haki makes me stronger than your physical strength can pierce" and Zoro said "well then, I'll add my haki on to that and if you're still protected, then you win, otherwise if the combination of my physical strength and haki can pierce you, then you lose." His words talked about it as the deciding factor, not the only factor, in response to Pica's statement which said that Zoro wasn't strong enough by himself to pierce Pica's haki.

 


zoro had no way of knowing the strength of pica's haki, because as we have seen from everyone in mf, CoO at the very least, CAN NOT detect haki, or else no one would be surprised by the fact that luffy can use CoC

 

He'd only need to detect Pica's power with that haki. He wouldn't have to sense that he was using haki, or even that he had haki at all, just that spike in power once haki was added.


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#60 Tale

Tale

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:43 AM


Yes. Pica said "My haki makes me stronger than your physical strength can pierce" and Zoro said "well then, I'll add my haki on to that and if you're still protected, then you win, otherwise if the combination of my physical strength and haki can pierce you, then you lose." His words talked about it as the deciding factor, not the only factor, in response to Pica's statement which said that Zoro wasn't strong enough by himself to pierce Pica's haki.

 

Zoro already had CoA hardening active, so I don't think that's what Pica can be construed to have said.






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