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[Discussion] RITS: Random Ideas, Theories & Speculations (Part 19)


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#41 Saiyan5nine-tails

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:26 PM

The Schrift do not influence a Quincy's natural abilities; they are the means for Yhwach to impart a deeper, more powerful part of his soul and to unlock the latent potential of the Quincy he gives a Schrift to (we saw this with Uryu).  Considering Bazz-B stated that those who survived Auswahlen lost their Vollstandig powers, it might prove my theory that the Schrifts are the source of the Quincy Vollstandig. 


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"On the Second Day,
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#42 Milareppa

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 06:42 PM

Probably ryuken was the original B. He says it's harder for him to lose his powers

 

I suspect Ryuuken's refusing to be an A. Somewhat symbolically, he actually appears to be a Z (which adds to the entire 'Yhwach opposite' thing he has going on - which technically should make letters meaningless for him in the long run); if the quincies survive the end of the story, rebuild and find a new identity, Ryuuken's the likely genesis of a quincy Zeitgeist - the spirit of the modern (Yhwach-free) 'quincy' era - but that would require regaining the self-belief to protect the quincy future.



#43 Tenno

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 06:58 PM

You'd need to have Three A's to form a proper Trinity

 

 keep Alpha and Omega Ryuken being 'Z' would work if Yhwach and Ryuken have a more direct relation then we think, which I think they do... Ala Old Man Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo, Two halves of the same whole.

 

which would make Uryu the "Balance" between the two.

 

I'm almost leaning toward something Plasma once alluded to, That Yhwach perhaps was not always the biggest asshole he is... that his defeat by Monster Asshole Yamamoto 1000 years ago, changed him in the direction he is now.


"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" -Corrax Entry 7:17


#44 Kensei13

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:33 PM

^^The trinity I'm seeing is Yhwach-Jugram-Uryu

Jugram power swaps with Yhwach at night, and that may include becoming "A".

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#45 Tenno

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:52 PM

^^The trinity I'm seeing is Yhwach-Jugram-Uryu

Jugram power swaps with Yhwach at night, and that may include becoming "A".

 

Jugram is more like Yhwach's Micheal then he is a member of the Quincy Trinity

 

 Yhwach and Ryuuken have so many contrasting details that if the two aren't more connected then just a visual contrast I'll be surprised


"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" -Corrax Entry 7:17


#46 RandomRider

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 11:17 AM

How can we already be coming to so many conclusions about Ryuuken and Bach? How are we already trying to put him on that level? Bach is less a human and more a force of nature. He is, more or less the progenitor of the entire Quincy "race". Comparing that with Ryuuken who seems to have inherited some sort of "final will" of this other clan of off shoots, seems rather strange.

I have no doubt that he'll have a wealth of knowledge about Bach. Said knowledge may even have found its way to Uryu before he sought Bach out.

#47 The Exile

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 11:29 AM

I don't know where to ask this random question so I'll try here. I was just curious how, when, and why people got into Bleach. How long have you guys been getting trolled by Kubo's greatness?

Friend on a chatroom back in 2005. He kept pestering me so i watched the anime......almost been 10 years now....how the time flies by......



#48 Hoff

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 11:29 AM

 Bach is less a human and more a force of nature. He is, more or less the progenitor of the entire Quincy "race". 

 

 

I doubt this part, highly. I'd be more than willing to be he corrupted or altered a clan of humans or whatever proto-shinigami there were into the Quincy. Progenitor would be a very relative term seeing as rn it's only word of mouth that he is. Beyond that people aren't really coming to conclusions but rather theories or possible outcomes given the things they interpret to be foreshadowing. 


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#49 rocconorth

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 12:09 PM

I suspect Ryuuken's refusing to be an A. Somewhat symbolically, he actually appears to be a Z (which adds to the entire 'Yhwach opposite' thing he has going on - which technically should make letters meaningless for him in the long run); if the quincies survive the end of the story, rebuild and find a new identity, Ryuuken's the likely genesis of a quincy Zeitgeist - the spirit of the modern (Yhwach-free) 'quincy' era - but that would require regaining the self-belief to protect the quincy future.

I always love reading Milareppa's thoughts on...well...whatever subject.  The fact that he or she managed to work in a reference to a "Zeitgeist" only reaffirms my devotion.  Well done.... ;)


Edited by rocconorth, 17 June 2015 - 12:10 PM.

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#50 RandomRider

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 03:04 PM

I doubt this part, highly. I'd be more than willing to be he corrupted or altered a clan of humans or whatever proto-shinigami there were into the Quincy. Progenitor would be a very relative term seeing as rn it's only word of mouth that he is. Beyond that people aren't really coming to conclusions but rather theories or possible outcomes given the things they interpret to be foreshadowing.


I'm just wary of elevating Ryuuken to that level. It wouldn't make much sense.

#51 Milareppa

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 03:27 PM

How can we already be coming to so many conclusions about Ryuuken and Bach? How are we already trying to put him on that level? Bach is less a human and more a force of nature. He is, more or less the progenitor of the entire Quincy "race". Comparing that with Ryuuken who seems to have inherited some sort of "final will" of this other clan of off shoots, seems rather strange.

I have no doubt that he'll have a wealth of knowledge about Bach. Said knowledge may even have found its way to Uryu before he sought Bach out.

 
Well, apparently Uryuu is immune/highly resistant to Auswahlen - even at the age of eight years old. Apparently he didn't consciously oppose Auswahlen because it didn't (seem to) occur to him he had even been Selected until Yhwach pointed it out. Yhwach also stated Uryuu is capable of surpassing Yhwach. Quilge also stated it is completely impossible for Uryuu to be weaker than him (one of the Stern Ritters) so the idea that Ichigo thought Uryuu had been weaker than Quilge was so newsworthy to Quilge that he felt he needed to report it quickly to Yhwach.
 
We do not know why Uryuu is immune/highly resistant or what Yhwach was talking about when he said Uryuu is capable of surpassing him (surpassing what, is the obvious question). We also don't know what Uryuu is the 'successor' to either. However, it is inevitable than when a young man is told he has the potential to surpass the main villain - and assuming the villain isn't lying through his teeth - the immediate question is an inevitable one: how much of this potential is inherited and what does this mean for his parentage? When a Stern Ritter states it's completely impossible for that young man to be weaker than him, how much of that is isolated solely to that young man and what degree is related to parentage.
 
In other words, if it is impossible for Uryuu to be weaker than a Stern Ritter, what are the abilities and powers and strengths (and weaknesses) of both his parents (because, in the absence of much knowledge, we have to ask that question of both Uryuu's parents, not just Ryuuken alone); if Uryuu was immune (or highly resistant) to Yhwach's manipulation of the soul (which Auswahlen has been described as) at the age of eight, and is potentially capable of surpassing Yhwach in some way, what are the abilities and powers and strengths (and weaknesses) of both his parents? Inevitably, Souken factors into this questioning, too.

 

Haschwalth has indicated that the soul manipulation of Yhwach is unique (among quincies). It's something only Yhwach can do. It's what Auswahlen is about, and the bestowing of Schrifts. There actually is a question mark over whether he really can perform a Schrift on someone he both cannot successfully perform Auswahlen on and claims can potentially surpass him, but we'll have to see about that.
 
Ryuuken and Yhwach have a clear yin/yang going on from the moment they've been introduced - colour schemes, personality, behaviour are very much opposed. Given that they each carry the titles 'First Quincy' and 'Last Quincy', I do not believe it's reading too much into Ryuuken to observe this; it appears to be quite deliberate, especially since even their job roles are connected to the thematic history of the Teutonic Knights.

  • The Quincy King is a black-themed quincy who is known as the First Quincy.
  • Ryuuken is a white-themed quincy who is known as the Last Quincy.
  • The final arc has revealed that, for all his protestations of peacefulness, Yhwach's nature is reputed to be ruthless and cruel.
  • Meanwhile, the final arc has revealed that, for all his protestations of harshness, Ryuuken's nature is gentle and caring.
  • Yhwach closely surrounds himself with people he apparently cares less for than it appears.
  • Ryuuken distances himself from people he apparently cares more for than it appears.
  • The Holy Roman Emperor commanding a Grand Master was the 'modernised' structure that came to characterise the Teutonic Knights.
  • The autonomous Hospital Director (or Hospital Master) leadership was the original/traditional structure that was replaced by the HRE/Grand Master structure.

 

Ryuuken described himself as succeeding Souken (in terms of all the power and technologies that Souken possessed, including the Last Quincy title - he succeeded Souken). Whatever Yhwach has in mind when he talks about Uryuu being his Successor, I expect it to bear some kind of connection to what Ryuuken said Souken forced on him. Ryuuken is also very ambiguous about how to interpret a claim that he's succeeded to all the powers and technologies of Souken - is that just what Souken possessed, or did Souken possess everything that was quincy? Ryuuken's statement comes dangerously close to the kind of comment we would expect only the First Quincy, or someone who was directly succeeding the First Quincy, would state. No-one, other than Yhwach, should be sliding towards the claim that they possess all quincy power and technology. Ryuuken doesn't definitely state that, but he's played with his words enough it to be easily read that way - and given his habit of doing exactly that with his words, it's worth bearing in mind.

 

Do I think Ryuuken could walk into the Royal Realm right now, thrash Yhwach, and destroy him? No, I don't. I don't think that's his role in the storyline anyway (whether or not he ends shadowing Isshin's confrontation of Aizen on Ichigo's behalf (insert Yhwach and Uryuu here), is another discussion entirely, but I wouldn't exactly expect that to lead to victory in Ryuuken's favour). However, Ryuuken and Yhwach definitely have some kind of relationship on every level that counts (appearance, personality, behaviour, power, symbolism). 

 

We've had a vow floating around the story for years to just that effect: Uryuu once vowed that he'd restore Ryuuken's quincy pride. The vow brought tears to Souken's eyes and a statement of gratitude to his lips, so it's clearly something that's very important Souken, and we do know that Ryuuken was once destined to 'protect' the quincy future and then lost faith in his ability to do that. Not that we know much about what that means just yet, but we do that Ryuuken's a leader and a healer.

 

If I believe anything about Ryuuken's role in the story, it's this: healers come into their own when healing is needed. If the quincies survive the end of the story, they will need to be guided in a life without Yhwach, and Ryuuken's the person best placed to do that - but only if he himself is healed first. Now, Uryuu did once vow to do that, but it's Ichigo's particular gift to fix hearts, and thereby fix the pieces of the world that's connected to those hearts. Ichigo hasn't yet been drawn into Ryuuken's part of the story - probably because Ryuuken's secret is apparently linked to something that might make Uryuu decide to quit being a quincy or, if he does decide to remain one, to be willing to engage in a battle that requires the kind of excessive power that Letzt Stil provides... which naturally begs the question - why tell someone they need to use a power-destroying ability only at the moment they decide to continue being a quincy, uness there's something about Letzt Stil we don't know?

 

In other words, Ryuuken's secret is connected to the fate of the quincies and, since it seems so connected to Uryuu's fate, it's very likely connected to why Yhwach made Uryuu his successor. I don't believe it's coincidence that Bambietta had foreboding about the future of the quincies when Uryuu joined the Vandenreich and because Yhwach's successor - that is precisely what the Ishida family has been set up as being: deeply connected to the fate of the future.

 

There's one other thing that being the 'Last' of something is connected to that Yhwach has quite notably not been associated with: the long, unwinding road of the past. Something about the past needs to be either changed or mended before a future can happen for anyone. I keep describing Ryuuken as some kind of quincy 'Zeitgeist', but I really do think he is on some level: something happened in the past that left the soul of the world broken, and it needs to be healed: only then can the future properly unfold.


Edited by Milareppa, 17 June 2015 - 03:40 PM.

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#52 Kensei13

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 04:12 PM

Jugram is more like Yhwach's Micheal then he is a member of the Quincy Trinity

 

 Yhwach and Ryuuken have so many contrasting details that if the two aren't more connected then just a visual contrast I'll be surprised

 I also got that impression back when his ability was first hinted, but that in itself may be a red herring. If latest chapter and "God Like You" are to go by, Kubo seems to be setting up Jugram and Yhwach as ying/yang, sun/moon -one is the ruler by the day, while the other is ruler by night. Not to mention, he is established as the "First Son".


Edited by Kensei13, 17 June 2015 - 04:17 PM.

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#53 DarkNemesis

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 04:37 PM


Not to mention, he is established as the "First Son".

 

If Juhabach is the First Quincy and Ryuuken is the Last Quincy, then continuing the parallel would make Uryuu the "Last Son". It's been argued that Ichigo has Sun/Eclipse themes, so, by twisting the words a bit, he could be the "last Sun".


Edited by DarkNemesis, 18 June 2015 - 12:51 PM.

Kubo's announcement will be his new work will be called Tide; not as strong as bleach but does its trolling in a more colorful fashion! - arcane_chaos

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#54 Milareppa

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:29 AM

Even though, chronologically and technically, Ichigo would be the "last son".

 

Ichigo's older than Uryuu by four months.



#55 Tenno

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:01 AM

Ichigo's  more an Aberration  of Nature 


"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" -Corrax Entry 7:17


#56 Tenno

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 07:20 AM

I beginning to think that Kisuke and Aizen are both former members of the Kido Corps

 

Both have access to Kido spells of a forbidden nature/above Danku range and an understanding of Kido that rivals Hachi and Tessai

 

To the point Kisuke has even modified basic Kido into advanced versions, Aizen even remarks that Kisuke Kido ability would have killed if he wasn't using the plot generator.

 

and the fact Kisuke and Aizen's verbal sparing always comes off as though they know the other much better then hat they want others to be aware of, despite being presented as only having met once Kisuke got kicked up to Captain by Yoruichi.

 

Of the SS's three divisions the Corps is the most secretive and to a degree more autonomous, unlike the Ninja Squad which is effectively the second division. Hell, Rose even says its outright strange that the Corps Captain would personally come to Yamamoto's summons.  

 

The only wrinkle I can think of is that Tessai and Hacchi don't seem to recognize either of them.


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#57 Ultrafragor

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 09:14 AM

I beginning to think that Kisuke and Aizen are both former members of the Kido Corps

 

Both have access to Kido spells of a forbidden nature/above Danku range and an understanding of Kido that rivals Hachi and Tessai

 

To the point Kisuke has even modified basic Kido into advanced versions, Aizen even remarks that Kisuke Kido ability would have killed if he wasn't using the plot generator.

 

and the fact Kisuke and Aizen's verbal sparing always comes off as though they know the other much better then hat they want others to be aware of, despite being presented as only having met once Kisuke got kicked up to Captain by Yoruichi.

 

Of the SS's three divisions the Corps is the most secretive and to a degree more autonomous, unlike the Ninja Squad which is effectively the second division. Hell, Rose even says its outright strange that the Corps Captain would personally come to Yamamoto's summons.  

 

The only wrinkle I can think of is that Tessai and Hacchi don't seem to recognize either of them.

 

Yamamoto also knew of a high level, forbidden hado. I don't think that indicates that any of them are really that proficient with kido.

 

Even Momo knew enough about kido to modify the spells she used.

 

And Aizen said that the Kido Cuffs would have killed him if he hadn't already subjugated the Hogyoku. The only thing he said about Urahara's spell was that he no longer had anything to fear from a 90s level hado.

 

 

 

The greatest kido feat so far was Hacchi, as a Vice Captain, restraining Kensei with an unchanted level 99 spell. 


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#58 Bravo!

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 01:00 AM

They're 3 cases of soul destabilization ( which involved a Quincy someway, shape or form)

1. When ichigo and uuryu teamed up to fight the menos Grande.
After the battle was over, the zan's spirit was going haywire. Uuryuu used his reshi absorption/ spirit bow to shoot off arrows and help stabilize the zan's spirit.

2. The hougyouku experiments/vizards.
Urahara needed an opposite power ( Quincy arrows of light) to stabilize the vizards souls

3.(which is connected to 2) yachiru. Just like the hougyouku experiments, it resulted in their clothes being left behind. So now we have her best friend and a mad scientist running around in the heart of the quincies territory.so we ( and mayuri) are going to find out why Quincies are important even though he believes they're nothing special.

#59 Senju D. Isshin

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:28 PM

Yamamoto also knew of a high level, forbidden hado. I don't think that indicates that any of them are really that proficient with kido.

Even Momo knew enough about kido to modify the spells she used.

And Aizen said that the Kido Cuffs would have killed him if he hadn't already subjugated the Hogyoku. The only thing he said about Urahara's spell was that he no longer had anything to fear from a 90s level hado.



The greatest kido feat so far was Hacchi, as a Vice Captain, restraining Kensei with an unchanted level 99 spell.


I disagree. The greatest kido feat so far was performed by Tessai when he transported the imperfect vizards to Urahara's lab using forbidden time space kido.

#60 Ultrafragor

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:35 PM

I disagree. The greatest kido feat so far was performed by Tessai when he transported the imperfect vizards to Urahara's lab using forbidden time space kido.

 

Not necessarily. We do not know how exhaustive or straining those spells are.

 

So, they can't be said to be a feat. Maybe a feat of knowledge, but that should be expected from the Grand Kido Chief. 

 

There's no position above him. So, who would know about such spells, if not him?


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