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[Discussion] RITS: Random Ideas, Theories & Speculations (Part 19)


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#781 FongShwei69

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 02:26 PM

I still don't understand the purpose of Unohana and Ukitake sacrficing their lives.
 
 
Ywach pretty much killed the sternritter himself so it didn't matter that Kenpachi powered up. Its also not like Gremmy was giving Kenpachi problems. so did he even need the power up?
 
Ywach also ate that thing Ukitake sacrificied himself for and just decided not to kill everyone. So again pointless.


I said the same thing about BS Much (i.e. Aizen) and the Espada. What was the point of gathering them, when he didn't need them? During the FKT arc, he proved he could've wiped out the Gotei and the Vizards on his own. Which made the entire Arrancar arc seem like a colossal waste of time, in hindsight.

If he was that OP, he could've offed the Gotei before he left Sogyoku Hill and called it a day.

#782 ddboy102

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 09:16 PM

I said the same thing about BS Much (i.e. Aizen) and the Espada. What was the point of gathering them, when he didn't need them? During the FKT arc, he proved he could've wiped out the Gotei and the Vizards on his own. Which made the entire Arrancar arc seem like a colossal waste of time, in hindsight.

If he was that OP, he could've offed the Gotei before he left Sogyoku Hill and called it a day.

 

The Espada so make sense somewhat.

 

- Help Ichigo Evolve

- Divide Gotei(they somewhat protected Aizen from being ganged up on by 100 percent captains. I think even Aizen would have a hard time against 15+ captain level opponents.

 

I'm assuming Isshin isn't under KS. 



#783 FongShwei69

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 10:09 PM

The Espada so make sense somewhat.
 
- Help Ichigo Evolve
- Divide Gotei(they somewhat protected Aizen from being ganged up on by 100 percent captains. I think even Aizen would have a hard time against 15+ captain level opponents.


Not really, since Sandal Hat could've handled the first part himself because he needed Ichigo to evolve too.

As for the second bit, even if the Gotei were fully rested, they'd only end up fighting each other, or worse, because they were all under KS. Not to mention, Gin's whole spiel about how none of them stood a chance no mater what they might've tried. And considering he dropped all of them with no effort, it probably wouldn't have mattered had they all ganged up on him at once.

In the end, Aizen even said it himself - that he didn't need the Espada.

#784 Fulmine

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 07:00 AM

He thought he needed them. Besides, he was always careful. Truth is the Espada were of use, until the Vizards came.


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#785 ddboy102

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 05:39 PM

Sandal Hat could've handled the first part himself because he needed Ichigo to evolve too.

 
 
its not like he had a bunch of Captain Level fighters willing to fight Ichigo to the death.
 
 

they'd only end up fighting each other, or worse,

 
But they  wanted to use Ichigo's immunity in the fight, also Isshin was capable of going toe to toe with Aizen.
 

In the end, Aizen even said it himself - that he didn't need the Espada.

 
Aizen is also willing to lie when it's convient for him.


Edited by ddboy102, 19 February 2017 - 05:41 PM.


#786 FongShwei69

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 09:15 PM

He thought he needed them. Besides, he was always careful. Truth is the Espada were of use, until the Vizards came.


The Vizards didn't make much of a difference, it was one of main the criticisms of the FKT arc. After all the hype, only Hacchi did anything worth noting. Shinji and the others got pwn'd just as easily as the Gotei captains did.
 

its not like he had a bunch of Captain Level fighters willing to fight Ichigo to the death.


It isn't like he needed any to get it done. The man has lolscience and cheat devices galore.
 

also Isshin was capable of going toe to toe with Aizen.


Yet, he wasn't worried, especially since Isshin only furthered his evolution.
  

Aizen is also willing to lie when it's convient for him.


Normally, I'd be in agreement, except he proved his point by cutting down Hallibel, then proceeded to single-handedly sh*tstomp the Gotei and the Vizards by himself - without breaking a sweat.

Whereas the Espada hadn't been able to defeat even a single captain. Hallibel couldn't even drop a pair of lieutenants (Lisa and Hiyori). AA was killed by a half-dead seated officer, Zommari was a joke, and Yammi was dumb muscle personified.

Of all the Espada, Grimmjow and Ulquiorra were the only ones who at least seemed threatening (I'd include Barragan, but the sheer amount of PIS he git hit with was criminal).

In the end, Aizen had to do their job for them and made it look easy.

Edited by FongShwei69, 20 February 2017 - 12:07 AM.


#787 Fulmine

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 09:27 AM


The Vizards didn't make much of a difference, it was one of main the criticisms of the FKT arc. After all the hype, only Hacchi did anything worth noting. Shinji and the others got pwn'd just as easily as the Gotei captains did.

There was still difference.

Rose and Love stalled Starrk long enough until Shunsui could activate his game otherwise Starrk would have been very difficult. As for Icekid, Hitsugaya beat Harribel fair and square but it's mainly due to her not knowing his ability (I forgot the name of the technique. Tenso something). Once she was out of that ice tower thanks to Wonderweiss's scream she would not get defeated as easily again. In fact Harribel held her own 3vs1 so without Lisa and Hiyori Toushirou could have lost. Barragan, nuff said.

 

 


It isn't like he needed any to get it done. The man has lolscience and cheat devices galore.

Doesn't mean he can do anything. That's why he has to plan. Otherwise he just needs to throw out gadgets like Doraemon...

 

 


Hallibel couldn't even drop a pair of lieutenants (Lisa and Hiyori)

Hitsugaya was there, too and those two are no normal lieutenants. They have hollow power boosting them and can fight bankai Ichigo when they trained him to control his inner hollow. Might as well consider their hollow power a replacement for bankai and compare them to Hitsugaya who has bankai but immature. Basically low-level captain level.

 


Of all the Espada, Grimmjow and Ulquiorra were the only ones who at least seemed threatening (I'd include Barragan, but the sheer amount of PIS he git hit with was criminal).

Seem? I'd rather have actual threat. Make it Starrk instead of Grimmjow.


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#788 Ultrafragor

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 10:49 AM

Harribel should have been weakened by suffocating in the ice.

The point of Shunsui's Bankai was to drain the player's reiatsu by trapping them underwater.

So, Halibel may have been able to fight back harder if she hadn't been choked by an iceberg for a half hour.
 
Hitsugaya needed bankai to block against Halibel being serious while sealed. So, he should be sent flying by any hit from release Halibel.

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#789 FongShwei69

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 11:55 AM

There was still difference.
Rose and Love stalled Starrk long enough until Shunsui could activate his game otherwise Starrk would have been very difficult.

  • Starrk was outmatched and he knew it, which he complained about at least twice (via internal monologue).
  • Prior to that, Shunsui flat-out told him that had Katen Kyokotsu cooperated with him from the beginning, he would've tried to end their fight right from the start.
So he didn't need Love and Rose. All he needed was for his zanpakutô to quit loafing on the job. Once KK finally decided to play ball, the fight went downhill for Starrk fast.
 

s for Icekid, Hitsugaya beat Harribel fair and square but it's mainly due to her not knowing his ability (I forgot the name of the technique. Tenso something). Once she was out of that ice tower thanks to Wonderweiss's scream she would not get defeated as easily again. In fact Harribel held her own 3vs1 so without Lisa and Hiyori Toushirou could have lost.


Not much of a selling point considering had Wonderweiss not been there to save her bacon, there wouldn't have a round two. And even then, she still wasn't anything he couldn't have handled himself. Lisa and Hiyori chose to butt-in, he didn't ask for their help.
 

Barragan, nuff said.

 
PIS, 'nuff said.
 

Doesn't mean he can do anything. That's why he has to plan.


Just because he didn't, doesn't mean he couldn't have.

Case in point: look at Nemu. No one would've thought she could do what she did unitl she did it. The same girl that got killed by Syazel was sitting on top of the power to take on someone far stronger (an EG).

Hitsugaya was there, too and those two are no normal lieutenants.


Hallibel and Lisa were fighting 1-on-1 the entire time Hitsugaya and Hiyori were arguing over him deciding to bail and leave it to them, so he could go fight Aizen. Lisa even paused during the fight to tell them, if they were gonna waste time bickering, she'd be fine fighting Hallibel on her own. And Lisa wasn't even winded.

So no, Hallibel couldn't even drop one (much less, two) lieutenants.
 

Seem? I'd rather have actual threat. Make it Starrk instead of Grimmjow.


Starrk didn't curbstomp a captain level opponent with his barehands and made it look like child's play. Grimmjow did, and he didn't need help any of the times he fought Ichigo. In their first two meetings, he was unreleased and was still more than Ichigo could handle.

Unlike Shunsui, had it not been for outside intervention each time Ichigo and Grimmjow fought, 'Bleach' would've lost its protagonist. Whereas Starrk complained the guy he was stuck fighting was too strong for him. I'd say Grimm was more of a threat.

Edited by FongShwei69, 20 February 2017 - 11:56 AM.


#790 ddboy102

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 10:54 PM


It isn't like he needed any to get it done. The man has lolscience and cheat devices galore.

 

No, Urahara isn't some walking duex ex machina, the last arc which had him struggling proved it. 

Everything he did with Aizen was planned out.

 


Yet, he wasn't worried, especially since Isshin only furthered his evolution.

 

Okay but imagine Isshin and Yama and Ichigo waiting to get in a sneak attack. Even Aizen would have a hard time.

 


Whereas the Espada hadn't been able to defeat even a single captain.

 

Which was attributed to PIS

 

AA held Rukia towards his face

Zommari blabbled about his powers

Szayel playing around which gave Mayrui time to analyze

Nnoitra running into his attack.

Starrk being lazy and getting 

Barragan being barragan.

Yami as lame and as unimpressive as he is Kenpachi and Byakuya were severly injuried.

 


Hallibel couldn't even drop a pair of lieutenants

 

lieutenants with 100+ years of training plus hollow powers. Kyoraku even claimed Lisa was stronger than her rank.

 


Starrk was outmatched and he knew it, which he complained about at least twice (via internal monologue).

 

A Starrk with a hole in chest, prior to that he was running circles around Kyoraku.

 

And he never claimed he was outmatched, he did comment on Kyoraky's strength.

 


Prior to that, Shunsui flat-out told him that had Katen Kyokotsu cooperated with him from the beginning, he would've tried to end their fight right from the start.

 

Kyoraku also wanted to release his bankai just to deal with Starrk Cero Machine gun.



#791 Fulmine

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 10:10 AM


Harribel should have been weakened by suffocating in the ice.

The point of Shunsui's Bankai was to drain the player's reiatsu by trapping them underwater.

So, Halibel may have been able to fight back harder if she hadn't been choked by an iceberg for a half hour.

I thought that was just effect for the sake of the play's narrative. And even if it's real water I don't think being underwater itself is a factor.

 

 


Starrk was outmatched and he knew it, which he complained about at least twice (via internal monologue).

When he was upset due to Barragan's death?

 


Prior to that, Shunsui flat-out told him that had Katen Kyokotsu cooperated with him from the beginning, he would've tried to end their fight right from the start.

Doesn't mean he could have. He got one perfect stab to Starrk's chest thanks to the whole ganging up situation.

 

 


So he didn't need Love and Rose. All he needed was for his zanpakutô to quit loafing on the job. Once KK finally decided to play ball, the fight went downhill for Starrk fast.

I have no objection to the last sentence and never said otherwise. Your second sentence, though, is exactly why Love and Rose were there. That's what I said: they stalled Starrk for Shunsui's shikai to activate

 

 


Not much of a selling point considering had Wonderweiss not been there to save her bacon, there wouldn't have a round two.

 

And even then, she still wasn't anything he couldn't have handled himself.

 

Lisa and Hiyori chose to butt-in, he didn't ask for their help.

The point is her overall power level is indeed great. Not Aizen's fault match-up factors play quite a role.

 

Evidence for that?

 

not needing help=/=being able to do it.

 

 


PIS, 'nuff said.

What PIS?

 

 


Just because he didn't, doesn't mean he couldn't have.

I didn't say he couldn't have. I simply stated just because he has shown to be able to do a lot of shit doesn't mean he can do all kinds of shit. You are the one claiming he could have so the burden of proof is on you.

 

 


Case in point: look at Nemu. No one would've thought she could do what she did unitl she did it. The same girl that got killed by Syazel was sitting on top of the power to take on someone far stronger (an EG).

Okay,

1. Who said she already had those abilities back then?

 

2. Even if she did, that doesn't mean you can just generalize and claim something without proof. One case turns out to be true doesn't mean the others will. Sure, it serves to show anything is possible but not enough to make a definitive conclusion.

 

 


Hallibel and Lisa were fighting 1-on-1 the entire time Hitsugaya and Hiyori were arguing over him deciding to bail and leave it to them, so he could go fight Aizen. Lisa even paused during the fight to tell them, if they were gonna waste time bickering, she'd be fine fighting Hallibel on her own. And Lisa wasn't even winded.

Lisa did that after they argued...

 

 


Starrk didn't curbstomp a captain level opponent with his barehands and made it look like child's play. Grimmjow did, and he didn't need help any of the times he fought Ichigo. In their first two meetings, he was unreleased and was still more than Ichigo could handle.

Whereas Starrk complained the guy he was stuck fighting was too strong for him. I'd say Grimm was more of a threat.

It's Shunsui...and Starrk overwhelmed Rose and Love (in shikai, admittedly but still...). Bare hand or not is irrelevant since each individual has his/her own fighting style.

 

Ichigo was unstable as hell back then with his inner hollow dilemma...his reiatsu fluctuated significantly. Also captain level covers a huge range so...


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#792 FongShwei69

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 11:13 AM

No, Urahara isn't some walking duex ex machina, the last arc which had him struggling proved it.


Yes, he is. Ichigo practically lampshaded it himself when Urahara showed up right as they needed a way back to HM (paraphrasing): 'Once again, Urahara-san mysteriously appears with the solution. Yet, like usual, he doesn't reveal how he knows what he knows'.

It's his schitck. Struggling to perform for a few chapters doesn't change that.

Everything he did with Aizen was planned out.


So we were told, but that's a different subject.
 
 

Okay but imagine Isshin and Yama and Ichigo waiting to get in a sneak attack. Even Aizen would have a hard time.


That would depend on cooperation, which wasn't happening. Ichigo didn't know his dad was a superstar shinigami, who could've been helping him. Yamamoto didn't know Isshin would be coming, or that he was even still alive. So how could they possibly plan a sneak attack, especially against the game guy who seemingly had a contingency plan for everything?

But --- even if they did pull off a sneak attack somehow, who's to say one of them wouldn't end up like Hinamori? Ichigo and his dad had the advantage of not being under KS, the same couldn't be said for Yamamoto.
 

lKyoraku even claimed Lisa was stronger than her rank.


So was Madarame, but he was still only lieutenant level and so was Lisa. She didn't attain captain level 'til the end of the series - and we only know that because of a novel.
 
 

A Starrk with a hole in chest, prior to that he was running circles around Kyoraku.
 
And he never claimed he was outmatched, he did comment on Kyoraky's strength.


Yes he did, when he asked why he had to fight "such a strog guy" and, in the closing moments of the fight, he reiterated it again because he losing and knew Shunsui was about to kill him.
 

Kyoraku also wanted to release his bankai just to deal with Starrk Cero Machine gun.


Which shows he meant what he said about wanting to end it from the get go (had his sword been cooperating).

#793 FongShwei69

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 12:18 PM

When he was upset due to Barragan's death?


Barragan's death made Starrk realize Aizen didn't care about any of them, but it wasn't why he lost.
 

I have no objection to the last sentence and never said otherwise. Your second sentence, though, is exactly why Love and Rose were there. That's what I said: they stalled Starrk for Shunsui's shikai to activate.


Admittedly, I'm drawing a blank on this part (mainly because the manga scans of the FKT chapters are no longer available on any of the sites that I use). But I don't recall Love or Rose saying why they offered to assist him, aside from the reason Shinji told Yamamoto.
 

Evidence for that?
 
not needing help=/=being able to do it.


Did it look like Hitsygaya needed help with Hallibel? He already had her entombed and had powered down by the time WW and Fura arrived. It wasn't like WW gave her a powerup. All he did was shatterr the ice tomb to set her free.

So I'm pretty sure he could've dealt with her again if it were necessary. But he was no longer interested in fighting with Hallibel, because he wanted to go after Aizen. I'd say that's more than sufficient.
 

What PIS?


You mean, besides:
  • Barragan choosing to play around with Omaeda instead just getting it over with.
  • Or choosing to go for Sui-Féng's shoulder, instead of her head when he had the chance.
  • Stood and watched while she got into position to fire her bankai, rather than go for the finish (again).
  • Despite the first shot missing entirely, he stood there in the resulting dustcloud, rather than use the opportunity to launch what could've been a surprise attack for... reasons?
  • Wasted time staring at a wall that he could've gone around, or straight through.
  • And he continued to stand there as Hacchi formed his barrier around him, while telling him what he was planning to do.
It's as if Barragan went completely brain dead during that fight. The man had multiple opportunities to put Sui-Féng, Hacchi, and Omaeda especially, out of their misery and pissed each one of them away, due to their plot armor.
 

I didn't say he couldn't have. I simply stated just because he has shown to be able to do a lot of shit doesn't mean he can do all kinds of shit. You are the one claiming he could have so the burden of proof is on you.


Given what all Urahara (and Mayuri) have done through lolscience, it's hardly a stretch.
 
O

Okay,
1. Who said she already had those abilities back then?


I did, several times in fact during the "Rank the Lieutenants" thread on the old site. I figured she would be for the exact same reason I said for Urahara: lolscience. At that time, I was told I was either trolling or crazy because Nemu didn't even have a bankai. Not that it mattered, since lolscience >>>>> bankai. And years later, I was proven right.
 

Even if she did, that doesn't mean you can just generalize and claim something without proof. One case turns out to be true doesn't mean the others will. Sure, it serves to show anything is possible but not enough to make a definitive conclusion.


Except I'm not generalizing. I'm referring to Urahara, who has an established history of pulling sh*t out his *** when it's convenient for the plot. The same way Nemu pulled that untold power out hers when it was also convenient.


It's Shunsui...and Starrk overwhelmed Rose and Love (in shikai, admittedly but still...). Bare hand or not is irrelevant since each individual has his/her own fighting style.


Love and Rose were able to put up a fight against Starrk, plus it was 2-on-1. Grimmjow faced the same odds, yet he 1-shot Rukia right from the start and proceeded to literally kick Ichigo's *** from one side of town to the other.

So even if we take differences in fighting style into consideration, that's still a stark contrast in their respective performances. One was a fight, the other was an asswhupping. Plain and simple.
 

Ichigo was unstable as hell back then with his inner hollow dilemma...his reiatsu fluctuated significantly.


Which doesn't change the fact that he beat a 3rd seat, four lieutenants (Renji, Omadea, Chojiro, and Isane), plus two captains. Yet he lost while using bankai, to guy who wasn't even using his zan.
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#794 Krizalid

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 01:46 PM

Espada were also experiments of Hollowfication (which took Aizen nowhere and got dumped into oblivion at the final arc)

 

Most of them were Vasto Lorde so they were the only specimen of  VL-Hollowfication



#795 Grimmjagger

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 04:17 PM

@FongShwei69

 

You mean, besides:

  • Barragan choosing to play around with Omaeda instead just getting it over with

Truthfully, if I remember correctly was Barragan playing around or wasn't he able to finish up Omaeda running away?

 

 

  • Or choosing to go for Sui-Féng's shoulder, instead of her head when he had the chance.

 

Are you referring to that Low-tier breath of his? Because if so, Sui-Feng was running away and it was only able to affect her hand.

Or are you referring to when he appeared in her back and slahed her shoulder? Because we all know in a shounen manga, main characters don't lose their heads no matter what.

 

 

  • Stood and watched while she got into position to fire her bankai, rather than go for the finish (again).

 

Those happened hundreds of times in Bleach... Remember Grimmjow vs Ichigo 3, when Ichigo was bursting that Nakama's speech while making his way throught Grimmjow's claw waves...

 

I think you're overrating that Barragan guy.


 

Espada were also experiments of Hollowfication (which took Aizen nowhere and got dumped into oblivion at the final arc)

 

Most of them were Vasto Lorde so they were the only specimen of  VL-Hollowfication

 

Not just that, they helped Aizen against the captains, that is until the Vizards came around...


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#796 FongShwei69

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 09:49 PM

Truthfully, if I remember correctly was Barragan playing around or wasn't he able to finish up Omaeda running away?


Barragan plainly said he was toying with Omaeda, which is why he criticized him for barely being able to outrun his Respira, even though he Barragan was deliberately slowing it down.
 

are you referring to when he appeared in her back and slahed her shoulder?


He didn't slash her shoulder, he aged the bones of her left arm; causing it to instantly become brittle.

Point being, he went for her arm, instead of going for her head, which was perfectly within reach. It was a wasted opportunity (among several).
 
 

Those happened hundreds of times in Bleach... Remember Grimmjow vs Ichigo 3, when Ichigo was bursting that Nakama's speech while making his way throught Grimmjow's claw waves.


I remember and fans said the same thing about that instance too, and others like it: it was PIS.
 

I think you're overrating that Barragan guy.


Barragan was one of the most haxx characters in the entire manga. PIS was the only way Kubo could kill him off without him taking wiping out the Gotei himself. The only one that would've stood a chance was Yamamoto.

#797 Fulmine

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 08:53 AM

So if Shinji can also reverse speech (sound) then his Zan doesn't just affect sight. I wonder if he will end up being able to reverse even smell, touch, taste, whatever those means...


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