I can't believe this is coming from you Ace lol.....Instead of rambling on here, I'll just leave you with this
The Jedi is essentially Buddhism mixed with other religions and this is another article from a different and more realistic perspective as to why its flawed (I'm not about to sit here and explain all of this shit myself so here you go)
End as in "to be concluded".....That doesn't mean that it cannot come back but in a different way.....Which is why I said that I think that he's just saying that it needs to become something else - Something which you yourself have said is inevitable
Also, since you want to only use the films and TV shows, how do you know that so much knowledge has been lost? IIRC Ezra and Maul have found Holocrons both of Jedi and Sith nature (And what's more interesting is how that whole thing played out because it dealt with the true concept of balance as well)....There was a Hutt that had a good amount of them (Albeit they were taken by Vader afterwards) but we don't know what happened to them.....Lando stole Palpatine's ship in his comic and that was filled with Sith Holocrons.....Whose to say that Luke couldn't have possibly found some himself....And most of all, I dunno why you are trying to disregard Force Ghosts since both Yoda and Obi-Wan have consistently been watching and contacting Luke throughout the OT....As the new grand master, why wouldn't Yoda teach him how to commune with them whenever he wants to?
What are you even talking about lol? It's been 30 years since ROTJ, not a month I'm pretty sure my argument is that post ROTJ Luke could have learn about these things and actually, in regards to the bolded part he DID reform the things that made the Order flawed
The difference between Luke's Order in the EU compared to before was that:
1. He completely eradicated that stupid mindset that attachments and emotions are a bad thing and instead encouraged attachments and emotions - Which in turn abolished the bullshit notion that only toddlers can be trained as Jedi and also gave Jedi of all ages more freedom
2. I'm gonna quote something that perfectly explains this point
3. In regards to how they view the dark side which in turn correlates with how they think balance can be achieved, in the words of awesomeness that was Kyle Katarn "Remember: abilities are not inherently good or evil, it's how you use them."
Luke dwelled in the dark side himself even and also preached the notion that dwelling in the dark does not mean that you automatically lost and thus must be destroyed which was the mindset of every Jedi before the ones of The New Order and ESPECIALLY Yoda and Obi-Wan
Why is it so hard for you admit that the Jedi Order we know is full of shit and deserved to get rekt lol.....They didn't simply go through a period of decline, they got destroyed because their flawed and hypocritical beliefs made them blind and it made them arrogant - Everything Palpatine said was 100% correct (That and because Anakin was stupid, but it was their stupid beliefs that made Anakin into Vader)
Why do you think that Luke would need to go down a dark path to come to that conclusion.....You want to stray away from the EU yet you use it in your argument when it seemingly benefits you, yet we saw through the EU that it doesn't take Luke himself having to go down some super dark path in order to change what made the Order of old so hypocritical
For a group of individuals who spend most of their time meditating, it's beyond me as to how they didn't figure out that they were being played by their own ally......They didn't even believe that the Sith had returned until the Clone Wars was started lol (I'll never forget how pompous Ki Adi Mundi and Mace Windu were when Qui Gon told them that the Sith is probably back )....If they had done anything but sit on their asses all day then maybe they could have prevented all of this
And everything that article said about Qui-Gon IS what happened though lol....That article is the result of reading in between the lines and not taking things at face value (Peace keepers that see nothing wrong with Slavery? That's not too surprising since their philosophy believes that emotions are the work of the devil )....It all started with Qui-Gon since if you want to, you can even go as far as blaing him for why Anakin was even found and trained.....Qui-Gon was more or less like Rhaegar Targayren....They both fucked their people and the order of things over their obsession of a damn prophecy lol
So by your logic, he went to the location of origin of the Jedi to go sight seeing and sit on his all day ...........Anyway, I said that he clearly went to this planet to learn and a such, he clearly had to have learned something pretty big if he would say a line like this
For example......During what I'm assuming is Rey's training, Luke tells her to breathe and then to reach out, followed by him asking "what does she see" which she responds by saying "Light, Darkness, A Balance" (I repeat, good cannot exist without evil, the ying and cannot exist without the yang) followed by Luke saying "Its so much bigger"
Why didn't you watch the trailer dude? Because all of my evidence here came directly from it + information released by Rian Johnson himself....The man has been learning
Yeah, no. That article, just like the first one, gets a number of things wrong. If you don't want to talk about it though then i'd suggest you stop bringing it up, along with this entire argument about the Jedi being flawed to be honest. You're just wasting your time. I'd wager that i've been around Star Wars just as long as you and clearly been exposed to most of the same materials as far as the old canon go. So, i'd say that it's common sense that you're not suddenly going to bring something up that'll change my mind today. Though honestly i'm not sure why you're surprised, since i've made my thoughts on the Jedi known to you multiple times.
Then if that's the meaning behind it that's not the Jedi ending at all, that's them changing/evolving, which makes everything else a moot point. As I said previously, ending or changing are two different things and my issue here is with the idea that they have to end altogether. If we're moving on to they need to change the argument becomes completely different.
Because the Jedi Temple, the primary repository for Jedi knowledge and learning, was still razed to the ground in the films and cartoons. To go back to the EU, Luke once found a fucking starship, which had been a mobile Jedi Academy, full of Jedi knowledge, but that still came nowhere near equaling the amount of knowledge that was lost. Honestly it seems like you're just attempting to prove me wrong by bringing up people finding bits and pieces of Jedi lore, which is pointless, because I never said that ALL Jedi knowledge was lost forever. I said the majority of it which is, again, just common sense seeing as we saw their fucking temple being destroyed in an attack that they had zero warning of. I'm not downplaying Force Ghosts at all, i'm specifically saying that they, in no canon, have ever done what you seem to think they're going to do for Luke. Who says that Yoda himself even knows how to contact Force Ghosts whenever he wants? Per the EU, he certainly didn't and it was the choice of the Ghost whether or not to show up and contact the Jedi/Force User. Force Ghosts were then never shown to hang around for years teaching Jedi/Force Users every single thing they knew and that was the same case in the OT. Ben shows up at the end of ANH to give Luke advice, again in ESB to counsel Yoda and converse with him, and finally in ROTJ to talk to Luke about his sister, and along with Yoda and Anakin at the finale. Literally none of that counts as teaching Luke, outside of the Death Star bit. Similar to the Holocrons, am I saying that Luke will absolutely not meet any Force Ghosts in the future? Of course not. I'm saying that it's more likely that his meetings with them will be restricted to the brief meetings they were in the film (And in the EU) than them spending days/months together going over Jedi training techniques. Though honestly, if the new canon had Force Ghosts doing that i'd also call it bad writing in a way, but for a completely different reason than this Jedi need to end thing.
What are you talking about? "in regards to the bolded part, he DID reform the things that made the Order flawed". Ok, please point out to me where I said that he didn't? This is the bolded part you referred to:
and at no point did he ever come close to gaining all the knowledge that his forebears possessed regarding Jedi history. I mean, he even had a few of the old Jedi join his Order and still didn't manage it.
Where in this sentence do I say that he didn't reform the Jedi? Newsflash, I didn't, because this sentence isn't about reforming the Jedi. It's about the same thing we've been talking about: how much knowledge Luke gained in comparison to the Old Jedi Order, in which case the comparison simply isn't even worth going into lol but we could literally make a list of the books, holocrons, and repositories of knowledge that Luke gained in the EU and compare it to what various other eras of Jedi in the EU had if you truly want to. I don't see a point, because it's just obvious that Luke between ROTJ and Crucible didn't do what you're trying to argue he did. If you read the EU books, comics, reference guides, and played the games, you should know this. A constant problem for Luke is just how much knowledge was lost and he never really gets over it. A lot of the changes he brings about, in fact, are more due to him not ever knowing the full extent of the rules that the OJO had, because, as i've constantly been saying, he spent what amount to a few weeks officially training with Obi-Wan and Yoda.
That quote you posted, along with the 3 changes Luke made, is then pointless to the discussion, because you seem to have misinterpreted my bolded quote for some reason. As i've now explained, my issue was not whether or not Luke made any changes. Obviously he did. We both know and acknowledge that. It was that Luke in the EU never once came close to holding all the knowledge of the Jedi that his forebears had and Luke in the Disney Canon is probably going to go the same way, because the basics of Palpatine and Vader taking out the Jedi are exactly the same. COULD the Disney writers do it differently and have Luke come across an entire underground library of every Jedi Holocron and Manuscript ever made? Sure, anything is possible, but it isn't likely. (Similar to the Force Ghost thing above, i'd also find that to be bad writing).
"Why is it so hard for you admit that the Jedi Order we know is full of shit and deserved to get rekt lol"
Why does it seem to be so hard for you to understand that I simply don't agree with you? I don't agree with you on Kylo Ren being better than Anakin either, does that shock you as well?
What dark path is Luke going down? I'm not really attempting to use the EU for my benefit purposefully. I'm attempting to make it clear that there is a line between EU Canon and Disney Canon and to attempt to only apply the current set of films and cartoons to the latter, so that we don't start saying that things are justified in the latter because of how they went in the former. Comparisons naturally arise, because a lot of the situations, such as the state of the galaxy after episodes 3 and 6 for example, are going to be exactly the same, but i'm still making an attempt not to blend the two in the same way that i'd make an attempt not to blend the X-Men film franchise with the Comics, because they're simply not the same and operate under different rules. If you wish and to make it easy we could simply not speak of the EU at all. We saw in the EU that pretty much every change Luke made came out of A)necessity or B)a lack of knowledge. Really, I don't remember a single source in which he decides to change something because he thought of the OJO as flawed and hypocritical. For example, he lets his students have romantic relationships not because the OJO didn't and it made them weak (In fact, I don't ever remember him even coming across the fact that they weren't allowed to have such relationships until like the Dark Nest Trilogy, when his order had been up and running for over a decade), but because the majority of students he first trains are adults who have already lived full lives with such relationships (Corran Horn is married and actually searching for his missing wife by the time he first starts officially training at Luke's Praxeum for example). Asking adults to then lose said relationships would be the height of silliness, especially when you're in a situation where you NEED to fill the galaxy with Jedi, are struggling to find Force Users, and therefore just have to accept whoever you can. Does this do away with the OJO's issue? Yes, but it's not for the reason you seem to think it is writing wise.
That logic, as always, downplays Palpatine and just how much of a master manipulator and Force User he was. Let's put it all on the Jedi for not being able to stop him and not on him for just being that damn brilliant.
We've covered this before, the Jedi DID see something wrong with slavery, but it's also very obvious as to why it exists, because there are planets and star systems outside of the Republic The funny thing is that we've actually talked about this at least twice in here and i'll never understand why it keeps coming up. This is akin to asking why crimes are being committed in other countries, but American police aren't going over there and stopping them. Answer? They have zero jurisdiction or even the manpower to do such a thing. Qui-Gon, notably, WANTED to take Shmi with him, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme, but didn't have the money to buy her freedom (That's right, buy, because 2 Jedi Knights aren't about to overturn an entire system of slavery in an area outside of the Republic) and couldn't get her as part of the bargain he struck with Watto for Anakin. I mean, geez, what is wrong with some people. The Jedi, who have no actual military and don't seem to have all that much money either, follow the laws of the Republic and don't randomly fly through the galaxy freeing slaves, which would require them to become involved in countless battles, and somehow they support slavery? This is honestly more of a criticism that should be aimed at the Republic, but even then the only real argument people can possibly make is that the Republic, which also did not have a military force until the end of AOTC, should make war with countless planets and star systems in order to end slavery and various other forms of oppression, and criminal practices in the ENTIRE FREAKING GALAXY!
By my logic, he went to the planet where the Jedi started. Point. Blank. Simple as pie. There's nothing else to be said about it until the new film is released. I'm not drawing conclusions one way or the other on it, because we simply don't know enough to do so.
I'm not into watching trailers for films that I already plan to see.
Edited by Ace1225, 19 September 2017 - 07:07 AM.