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[Films] The Star Wars Universe (Part 2)


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#621 Tokoya

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 03:24 PM


You're missing my point, which is tied back to trafalgar's initial post that I responded to, which is the issue of whether or not the current argument of the Jedi needing to end makes sense writing wise. I understand that apparently that decision has been made as far as episode 8 is concerned and i'm then not arguing about whether or not that decision makes sense in terms of that episode by itself. I'm saying, just as Trafalgar did, that it isn't an argument that's supported by the previous works in the series. It's just a conclusion that's being made now with their being no real precedent for it. In terms of Luke alone believing in it, the only issue I took with that in regards to your previous post is the idea that because he's on some random planet instead of out in the galaxy doing things then that somehow counts as buildup or a hint to the fact that the Jedi need to end. It doesn't.
 

How, when we have the prequels which pretty much are THE prime example as to why it needs to end....Yes, we never had any precedent for it because the story itself at that time was over, but like I already pointed out, this isn't the first time where we have a continuation of the story/franchise whereas things like this was taken into consideration.....The EU/Legends already did this because naturally and logically speaking, The Order needed to change which in turn is what I'm saying is most likely happening here now

 


The Jedi Order failing was a combination of their own mistakes in the PT and Palpatine's manipulations. This is something that's abundantly clear all around and I don't see the need to go into it. However, as i've pointed out in here before, the Jedi are not fundamentally flawed. If that were the case then the Order wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Literally the first thing we learn about them is that they had been around for "over a thousand generations". To then piggyback off of your initial post, which mentioned the EU, another thing that the EU also showed time and again, besides the flaws of the PT Order, is that the Jedi Order had not remained static throughout its existence. There were numerous different iterations, with different locations, practices, teachings, and beliefs, over the course of its long history, including the PT Order and Luke's New Jedi Order, which did indeed go a different route than the Order that Obi-Wan and Yoda were a part of some 30 years priors. This is just to say, again, that the Order itself is not simply flawed from the outset and an impossible concept to make work. Saying so flies directly in the face of what was stated about it in ANH.

I'm glad that you mentioned this because this is exactly what I was going to touch on next.....I don't think that Luke is saying that the Jedi must literally end but rather he must become someone else.....The Jedi must become something else (I think you'll appreciate this certain reference as much as I am right now lol - I'm too excited for the new season xD)...But be that as it may, until Luke changed it in the EU their flaws lied in their hypocrisy - Their belief that they must be passive (Yet throughout history they have stuck their noses into the affairs of the Republic and are the main reasons why the Sith always fucks things up), their views on attachment and mostly their belief that balance will be achieved via the destruction of the Sith/Dark Side

 


Beyond that, I don't really care whether or not the Jedi continue or whether or not Luke decides to follow Obi-Wan and Yoda to the letter (And honestly I don't see how he could do that anyways since, as the EU noted, he only had what amounted to a few weeks of real training. So, there's no way he could possibly have learned every single tradition and practice of the Order, as it was during the PT, in that time

So force ghosts and Holocrons aren't a thing anymore then? lol...In regards to training, that's more on the physical aspects such as how he was suddenly powerful enough to go toe to toe with Vader and even beat him

 


The PT shows the Jedi as having grown complacent and falling due to a betrayal from within, outside manipulations from Palpatine, and an unwillingness to adapt/change to new situations. The OT shows the galaxy locked in darkness, with the birth of a New Jedi

Taught by the Jedi of old*

 

 


A New Hope, being just what is needed to bring an end to the overwhelming amount of darkness that has ruined countless lives. The Jedi are then shown to be essential to the galaxy in that way

Yeah, very much one-sidedly at that too, hence why Lucas corrected that problem with the Prequels.....Without the prequels, why would we believe that this Order and beliefs preached by Yoda and Obi-Wan isn't the right way to go? Luke isn't us the audience, the only way he would know any better is if he learns properly about past events but if his teachers are telling him one thing, then history is doomed to repeat itself, which it did

 


Going from here and completely jumping to the Jedi need to end altogether is bad writing

How is it bad writing to want to change something that's flawed and hypocritical?

 

This article went even more in on this than I did and rightfully so

 

https://www.polygon....uke-end-of-jedi

 

But like I said before, if Luke didn't do anything different from what Yoda and co. did, then most definitely THIS Jedi Order needs to "end"

 


Luke being alone on some planet doesn't justify that.

But this isn't 'some planet' though.....What I said about Ahch-Too (The name of this planet) has already been revealed to the public.....Why else would Luke be here for these couple of years? We already know that he isn't hiding like Yoda did

 


Ben destroying Luke's order doesn't justify that

It kinda does when he is literally Anakin 2.0 (but done much better)   :whistle:

 


It's an idea that can certainly be justified, but at the moment, based on just the films, it isn't.
 

Like I said already, if Luke didn't change anything then it is more than justified.....The Jedi Order (Or rather what he know of it via the films) has always been flawed whether you chose to accept it or not.....It's easy to go the whole Good vs Evil route but realistically speaking, nothing is ever truly good or evil nor can both concepts exist without the other - Hence why the Jedi's idea of how to achieve balance is retarded among other things


Edited by Tokoya, 18 September 2017 - 03:34 PM.

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#622 Ace1225

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 08:20 PM

How, when we have the prequels which pretty much are THE prime example as to why it needs to end....Yes, we never had any precedent for it because the story itself at that time was over, but like I already pointed out, this isn't the first time where we have a continuation of the story/franchise whereas things like this was taken into consideration.....The EU/Legends already did this because naturally and logically speaking, The Order needed to change which in turn is what I'm saying is most likely happening here now

 

I'm glad that you mentioned this because this is exactly what I was going to touch on next.....I don't think that Luke is saying that the Jedi must literally end but rather he must become someone else.....The Jedi must become something else (I think you'll appreciate this certain reference as much as I am right now lol - I'm too excited for the new season xD)...But be that as it may, until Luke changed it in the EU their flaws lied in their hypocrisy - Their belief that they must be passive (Yet throughout history they have stuck their noses into the affairs of the Republic and are the main reasons why the Sith always fucks things up), their views on attachment and mostly their belief that balance will be achieved via the destruction of the Sith/Dark Side

 

So force ghosts and Holocrons aren't a thing anymore then? lol...In regards to training, that's more on the physical aspects such as how he was suddenly powerful enough to go toe to toe with Vader and even beat him

 

Taught by the Jedi of old*

 

 

Yeah, very much one-sidedly at that too, hence why Lucas corrected that problem with the Prequels.....Without the prequels, why would we believe that this Order and beliefs preached by Yoda and Obi-Wan isn't the right way to go? Luke isn't us the audience, the only way he would know any better is if he learns properly about past events but if his teachers are telling him one thing, then history is doomed to repeat itself, which it did

 

How is it bad writing to want to change something that's flawed and hypocritical?

 

This article went even more in on this than I did and rightfully so

 

https://www.polygon....uke-end-of-jedi

 

But like I said before, if Luke didn't do anything different from what Yoda and co. did, then most definitely THIS Jedi Order needs to "end"

 

But this isn't 'some planet' though.....What I said about Ahch-Too (The name of this planet) has already been revealed to the public.....Why else would Luke be here for these couple of years? We already know that he isn't hiding like Yoda did

 

It kinda does when he is literally Anakin 2.0 (but done much better)   :whistle:

 

Like I said already, if Luke didn't change anything then it is more than justified.....The Jedi Order (Or rather what he know of it via the films) has always been flawed whether you chose to accept it or not.....It's easy to go the whole Good vs Evil route but realistically speaking, nothing is ever truly good or evil nor can both concepts exist without the other - Hence why the Jedi's idea of how to achieve balance is retarded among other things

 All that is relevant at the moment are films 1-6, including Rogue One, along with TCW and Rebels, because we're talking about the precedent being set in the films. I don't think fans should be expected to be familiar with the EU/Legends continuity, especially since Disney hasn't done much to reference it anyways. That being said, how exactly did the prequels prove that the Jedi Order needs to end?  :huh: It showed that an order that's been around for a thousand generations went through a rough patch and was finally defeated by their eternal enemies The Sith, but I don't see how that somehow displays the Jedi as being an order that doesn't work and is detrimental to the galaxy. Especially when, going forward, we then have ROTJ which, as I pointed out previously, shows the need for the Jedi in the galaxy.

 

That's up in the air, since we only have the trailer for now. But if that's the case, then that isn't Luke arguing that the Jedi need to end and you arguing as such in the above section seems like a moot point. It'd be him arguing, as you yourself are saying, that the Jedi just need to change, which I think is inevitable if only for the simple fact that, as I mentioned previously, a ton of knowledge and history concerning the Jedi would have been lost forever during Order 66. Luke could not possibly have access to all of that and therefore wouldn't have a chance in hell at creating the new Order in its exact image. Hell, the EU has nothing to do with the concept of the Jedi needing to end in Disney Canon, but one major reason that the New Jedi Order was different was because of exactly this reason. To be blunt, Luke barely knew anything about the Jedi Order in that continuity and had to flail about time and again just to find a bit of knowledge on them.

 

Are we expecting a ton of Force Ghosts to show up and pass on all of their knowledge to Luke over the course of what? Multiple years/recording sessions?  :lolxg: Are we then expecting that there are an abundance of Holocrons that Luke will have easy access too?  :lolxg:  :lolxg: I stand by what I said previously and restated above: there's no way that Yoda and Obi-Wan gave all the information on the OJO that they had, in under a month. This is just common sense. We're talking about a thousand generations of history here. I don't even see how you could argue against that. Hell, going back to Legends and what I said above, Luke actually found Holocrons and came into contact with a few Force Ghosts, and at no point did he ever come close to gaining all the knowledge that his forebears possessed regarding Jedi history. I mean, he even had a few of the old Jedi join his Order and still didn't manage it. Somehow things are going to be different now? Could they be? Sure, just like the world could end tomorrow, but it's not likely.

 

Taught by the Jedi of old and saving the day/galaxy regardless.

 

But Lucas didn't change that in the prequels. Like at all.  :lolxg: And the prequels still lead directly into the OT, so the ending remains the same regardless. All that the prequels showed, as i've stated already, is that the Jedi went through a period of complacency/decline, as did the Galactic Republic itself. I don't know why you believe that all the beliefs of the Order aren't the right way to go to begin with, nor do I think that most people hold that belief. Pretty sure it's only part of the beliefs that are considered to be wrong, such as the practice of taking children away from their families. That's a specific event that was shown to traumatize Anakin deeply, though he had far more issues beyond that. In this way, I don't think it's ever really portrayed as being in the right. On the other hand, you then have the practice of Jedi needing to control their emotions to properly use the Force and resist the allure of the Dark Side. That's not portrayed as being wrong in the PT and it obviously isn't in the OT either, being part of what leads to Luke overcoming Vader and Palpatine. Point being, there were some parts of what the Jedi had going on that worked and some that didn't work, which is also a theme in the EU continuity as well. 

 

My comment wasn't about changing. It was about ending altogether. The Jedi as a whole are not corrupt monsters or an organization who can't work and i've pointed out why multiple times. Therefore, to decide that the Jedi can't work and have to end, when ROTJ showed us that a Jedi Knight can work just fine and be a bringer of peace and light to the galaxy, is terrible writing. For that to make sense you would have needed a followup shortly after ROTJ that showed Luke going down some kind of dark, terrible path because of the Jedi teachings, while also having it eclipse ROTJ.

 

In terms of the article: there's a whole lot of ridiculous stuff in there that I don't even want to begin scratching the surface of  :lolxg: One part though, early on

 

The wars that we see on-screen, the battles that cost untold carnage across space, are often the result of the actions of Jedi who are acting in the best interest of their beliefs, not the will of the people.

 

What?  :huh: Just speaking on the films: Battle of Naboo, Battle of Geonosis, Clone War, Galactic Civil War. Literally none of those conflicts were caused by Jedi. The Battle of Naboo is caused by the Trade Federation, working with the Sith, basically taking over a planet to benefit their own organization and trampling the native peoples. The Jedi then work with said people to free their planet. The Battle of Geonosis is caused due to the kidnapping of a senator and two Jedi Knights by an organization which, up until that point, had been masking itself as a political movement which wanted to separate from the reigning government due to claims of taxation and corruption in said government, which was also spurred on by The Sith. The Army the Jedi then used to fight that battle was also created by The Sith as part of a plot to destroy said Jedi, which led directly into the Clone War  :lolxg: The Jedi were destroyed by the time of the Galactic Civil War, so that's moot. I have no clue what the hell he's talking about here. There are more points I disagree with him on, but this statement is silly as fuck.

 

The planet could be freaking Mortis and it really wouldn't matter to be honest. Going to a planet isn't proof of the Jedi needing to end. Really not sure why I have to explain why to be honest. That's looking very, very deeply into a character's actions, when you've heard nothing from the character himself outside of a trailer, and then assuming what his reasoning for doing a number of things was. Come on now, that's reaching at its finest.

 

It really doesn't, because destroying something that you hate doesn't mean that thing needs to end (Especially when you're the villain of the story).  Also not sure why I need to explain this either. 

 

As I said earlier, it isn't. The issue isn't whether or not the PT Jedi were flawed. It's whether or not the Jedi as a concept are so unworkable that they shouldn't exist at all. Based on the films alone, it clearly isn't, hence why the OT is all about our hero becoming a freaking Jedi Knight and saving the galaxy  :lolxg:


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I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#623 Tokoya

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 10:12 PM


All that is relevant at the moment are films 1-6, including Rogue One, along with TCW and Rebels, because we're talking about the precedent being set in the films. I don't think fans should be expected to be familiar with the EU/Legends continuity, especially since Disney hasn't done much to reference it anyways. That being said, how exactly did the prequels prove that the Jedi Order needs to end?   It showed that an order that's been around for a thousand generations went through a rough patch and was finally defeated by their eternal enemies The Sith, but I don't see how that somehow displays the Jedi as being an order that doesn't work and is detrimental to the galaxy. Especially when, going forward, we then have ROTJ which, as I pointed out previously, shows the need for the Jedi in the galaxy

I can't believe this is coming from you Ace lol.....Instead of rambling on here, I'll just leave you with this

 

http://popculturephi...edi-philosophy/

 

The Jedi is essentially Buddhism mixed with other religions and this is another article from a different and more realistic perspective as to why its flawed (I'm not about to sit here and explain all of this shit myself so here you go)

 


That's up in the air, since we only have the trailer for now. But if that's the case, then that isn't Luke arguing that the Jedi need to end and you arguing as such in the above section seems like a moot point. It'd be him arguing, as you yourself are saying, that the Jedi just need to change, which I think is inevitable if only for the simple fact that, as I mentioned previously, a ton of knowledge and history concerning the Jedi would have been lost forever during Order 66. Luke could not possibly have access to all of that and therefore wouldn't have a chance in hell at creating the new Order in its exact image. Hell, the EU has nothing to do with the concept of the Jedi needing to end in Disney Canon, but one major reason that the New Jedi Order was different was because of exactly this reason. To be blunt, Luke barely knew anything about the Jedi Order in that continuity and had to flail about time and again just to find a bit of knowledge on them.

End as in "to be concluded".....That doesn't mean that it cannot come back but in a different way.....Which is why I said that I think that he's just saying that it needs to become something else - Something which you yourself have said is inevitable

 

Also, since you want to only use the films and TV shows, how do you know that so much knowledge has been lost? IIRC Ezra and Maul have found Holocrons both of Jedi and Sith nature (And what's more interesting is how that whole thing played out because it dealt with the true concept of balance as well)....There was a Hutt that had a good amount of them (Albeit they were taken by Vader afterwards) but we don't know what happened to them.....Lando stole Palpatine's ship in his comic and that was filled with Sith Holocrons.....Whose to say that Luke couldn't have possibly found some himself....And most of all, I dunno why you are trying to disregard Force Ghosts since both Yoda and Obi-Wan have consistently been watching and contacting Luke throughout the OT....As the new grand master, why wouldn't Yoda teach him how to commune with them whenever he wants to?

 


Are we expecting a ton of Force Ghosts to show up and pass on all of their knowledge to Luke over the course of what? Multiple years/recording sessions?   Are we then expecting that there are an abundance of Holocrons that Luke will have easy access too?     I stand by what I said previously and restated above: there's no way that Yoda and Obi-Wan gave all the information on the OJO that they had, in under a month. This is just common sense. We're talking about a thousand generations of history here. I don't even see how you could argue against that. Hell, going back to Legends and what I said above, Luke actually found Holocrons and came into contact with a few Force Ghosts, and at no point did he ever come close to gaining all the knowledge that his forebears possessed regarding Jedi history. I mean, he even had a few of the old Jedi join his Order and still didn't manage it. Somehow things are going to be different now? Could they be? Sure, just like the world could end tomorrow, but it's not likely.
 

What are you even talking about lol? It's been 30 years since ROTJ, not a month  :psyduck: I'm pretty sure my argument is that post ROTJ Luke could have learn about these things and actually, in regards to the bolded part he DID reform the things that made the Order flawed

 

The difference between Luke's Order in the EU compared to before was that:

 

1. He completely eradicated that stupid mindset that attachments and emotions are a bad thing and instead encouraged attachments and emotions - Which in turn abolished the bullshit notion that only toddlers can be trained as Jedi and also gave Jedi of all ages more freedom

 

2. I'm gonna quote something that perfectly explains this point

 

 

In times of great difficulty, the Order would sometimes intervene more forcefully, though they were always reluctant to become involved in conflicts. This attidue, however, often was frowned upon by others, who beleived the Order intervened late, and left the dirty work to the good citizens of the Republic they apparently served. Throughout history, more resentment was bred towards the Order then respect for their mentality.

 
The New Jedi Order, on the other hand, is far more active day-to-day. Gone are the eras of the Jedi sitting in their temples meditating. A Jedi is expected to be at the Galactic Alliance's disposal, actively serving to protect the good people of the galaxy from darker threats. Jedi are often called upon as diplomats and scholars, but moreso now they are also involved in directly intervening in conflicts as serving alongside the Galactic Alliance's military forces when need be. The Jedi still maintain bastions of knowledge and learning, but the vast majority of the Order is scattered throughout the galaxy, actively seeking knowledge or setting things to right.
 
In addition to these greater acts, the modern Jedi is also expected to perform smaller acts of kindness. Many Jedi assist remote communities by ways of delivering store of food, or assisting to erect shelter. Others serve to police dense, overpopulated worlds, uprooting crime where the arm of the law does not reach. Compared to the old Order ,the Jedi is seen more frequently and is prepared to assist wherever and whenever possible.

 

3. In regards to how they view the dark side which in turn correlates with how they think balance can be achieved, in the words of awesomeness that was Kyle Katarn "Remember: abilities are not inherently good or evil, it's how you use them."

 

Luke dwelled in the dark side himself even and also preached the notion that dwelling in the dark does not mean that you automatically lost and thus must be destroyed which was the mindset of every Jedi before the ones of The New Order and ESPECIALLY Yoda and Obi-Wan 

 


But Lucas didn't change that in the prequels. Like at all.   And the prequels still lead directly into the OT, so the ending remains the same regardless. All that the prequels showed, as i've stated already, is that the Jedi went through a period of complacency/decline, as did the Galactic Republic itself. I don't know why you believe that all the beliefs of the Order aren't the right way to go to begin with, nor do I think that most people hold that belief. Pretty sure it's only part of the beliefs that are considered to be wrong, such as the practice of taking children away from their families. That's a specific event that was shown to traumatize Anakin deeply, though he had far more issues beyond that. In this way, I don't think it's ever really portrayed as being in the right. On the other hand, you then have the practice of Jedi needing to control their emotions to properly use the Force and resist the allure of the Dark Side. That's not portrayed as being wrong in the PT and it obviously isn't in the OT either, being part of what leads to Luke overcoming Vader and Palpatine. Point being, there were some parts of what the Jedi had going on that worked and some that didn't work, which is also a theme in the EU continuity as well. 

Why is it so hard for you admit that the Jedi Order we know is full of shit and deserved to get rekt lol.....They didn't simply go through a period of decline, they got destroyed because their flawed and hypocritical beliefs made them blind and it made them arrogant - Everything Palpatine said was 100% correct (That and because Anakin was stupid, but it was their stupid beliefs that made Anakin into Vader)

 


My comment wasn't about changing. It was about ending altogether. The Jedi as a whole are not corrupt monsters or an organization who can't work and i've pointed out why multiple times. Therefore, to decide that the Jedi can't work and have to end, when ROTJ showed us that a Jedi Knight can work just fine and be a bringer of peace and light to the galaxy, is terrible writing. For that to make sense you would have needed a followup shortly after ROTJ that showed Luke going down some kind of dark, terrible path because of the Jedi teachings, while also having it eclipse ROTJ.
 

Why do you think that Luke would need to go down a dark path to come to that conclusion.....You want to stray away from the EU yet you use it in your argument when it seemingly benefits you, yet we saw through the EU that it doesn't take Luke himself having to go down some super dark path in order to change what made the Order of old so hypocritical 

 


In terms of the article: there's a whole lot of ridiculous stuff in there that I don't even want to begin scratching the surface of   One part though, early on
 
The wars that we see on-screen, the battles that cost untold carnage across space, are often the result of the actions of Jedi who are acting in the best interest of their beliefs, not the will of the people.
 
What?   Just speaking on the films: Battle of Naboo, Battle of Geonosis, Clone War, Galactic Civil War. Literally none of those conflicts were caused by Jedi. The Battle of Naboo is caused by the Trade Federation, working with the Sith, basically taking over a planet to benefit their own organization and trampling the native peoples. The Jedi then work with said people to free their planet. The Battle of Geonosis is caused due to the kidnapping of a senator and two Jedi Knights by an organization which, up until that point, had been masking itself as a political movement which wanted to separate from the reigning government due to claims of taxation and corruption in said government, which was also spurred on by The Sith. The Army the Jedi then used to fight that battle was also created by The Sith as part of a plot to destroy said Jedi, which led directly into the Clone War   The Jedi were destroyed by the time of the Galactic Civil War, so that's moot. I have no clue what the hell he's talking about here. There are more points I disagree with him on, but this statement is silly as fuck.

For a group of individuals who spend most of their time meditating, it's beyond me as to how they didn't figure out that they were being played by their own ally......They didn't even believe that the Sith had returned until the Clone Wars was started lol (I'll never forget how pompous Ki Adi Mundi and Mace Windu were when Qui Gon told them that the Sith is probably back :lmao:)....If they had done anything but sit on their asses all day then maybe they could have prevented all of this 

 

And everything that article said about Qui-Gon IS what happened though lol....That article is the result of reading in between the lines and not taking things at face value (Peace keepers that see nothing wrong with Slavery? That's not too surprising since their philosophy believes that emotions are the work of the devil :whistle: )....It all started with Qui-Gon since if you want to, you can even go as far as blaing him for why Anakin was even found and trained.....Qui-Gon was more or less like Rhaegar Targayren....They both fucked their people and the order of things over their obsession of a damn prophecy lol 

 


The planet could be freaking Mortis and it really wouldn't matter to be honest. Going to a planet isn't proof of the Jedi needing to end. Really not sure why I have to explain why to be honest. That's looking very, very deeply into a character's actions, when you've heard nothing from the character himself outside of a trailer, and then assuming what his reasoning for doing a number of things was. Come on now, that's reaching at its finest.

So by your logic, he went to the location of origin of the Jedi to go sight seeing and sit on his all day ...........Anyway, I said that he clearly went to this planet to learn and a such, he clearly had to have learned something pretty big if he would say a line like this

 

For example......During what I'm assuming is Rey's training, Luke tells her to breathe and then to reach out, followed by him asking "what does she see" which she responds by saying "Light, Darkness, A Balance" (I repeat, good cannot exist without evil, the ying and cannot exist without the yang) followed by Luke saying "Its so much bigger" 

 

Why didn't you watch the trailer dude? Because all of my evidence here came directly from it + information released by Rian Johnson himself....The man has been learning 


Edited by Tokoya, 18 September 2017 - 10:16 PM.

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#624 Ace1225

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 07:06 AM

I can't believe this is coming from you Ace lol.....Instead of rambling on here, I'll just leave you with this

 

http://popculturephi...edi-philosophy/

 

The Jedi is essentially Buddhism mixed with other religions and this is another article from a different and more realistic perspective as to why its flawed (I'm not about to sit here and explain all of this shit myself so here you go)

 

End as in "to be concluded".....That doesn't mean that it cannot come back but in a different way.....Which is why I said that I think that he's just saying that it needs to become something else - Something which you yourself have said is inevitable

 

Also, since you want to only use the films and TV shows, how do you know that so much knowledge has been lost? IIRC Ezra and Maul have found Holocrons both of Jedi and Sith nature (And what's more interesting is how that whole thing played out because it dealt with the true concept of balance as well)....There was a Hutt that had a good amount of them (Albeit they were taken by Vader afterwards) but we don't know what happened to them.....Lando stole Palpatine's ship in his comic and that was filled with Sith Holocrons.....Whose to say that Luke couldn't have possibly found some himself....And most of all, I dunno why you are trying to disregard Force Ghosts since both Yoda and Obi-Wan have consistently been watching and contacting Luke throughout the OT....As the new grand master, why wouldn't Yoda teach him how to commune with them whenever he wants to?

 

What are you even talking about lol? It's been 30 years since ROTJ, not a month  :psyduck: I'm pretty sure my argument is that post ROTJ Luke could have learn about these things and actually, in regards to the bolded part he DID reform the things that made the Order flawed

 

The difference between Luke's Order in the EU compared to before was that:

 

1. He completely eradicated that stupid mindset that attachments and emotions are a bad thing and instead encouraged attachments and emotions - Which in turn abolished the bullshit notion that only toddlers can be trained as Jedi and also gave Jedi of all ages more freedom

 

2. I'm gonna quote something that perfectly explains this point

 

 

3. In regards to how they view the dark side which in turn correlates with how they think balance can be achieved, in the words of awesomeness that was Kyle Katarn "Remember: abilities are not inherently good or evil, it's how you use them."

 

Luke dwelled in the dark side himself even and also preached the notion that dwelling in the dark does not mean that you automatically lost and thus must be destroyed which was the mindset of every Jedi before the ones of The New Order and ESPECIALLY Yoda and Obi-Wan 

 

Why is it so hard for you admit that the Jedi Order we know is full of shit and deserved to get rekt lol.....They didn't simply go through a period of decline, they got destroyed because their flawed and hypocritical beliefs made them blind and it made them arrogant - Everything Palpatine said was 100% correct (That and because Anakin was stupid, but it was their stupid beliefs that made Anakin into Vader)

 

Why do you think that Luke would need to go down a dark path to come to that conclusion.....You want to stray away from the EU yet you use it in your argument when it seemingly benefits you, yet we saw through the EU that it doesn't take Luke himself having to go down some super dark path in order to change what made the Order of old so hypocritical 

 

For a group of individuals who spend most of their time meditating, it's beyond me as to how they didn't figure out that they were being played by their own ally......They didn't even believe that the Sith had returned until the Clone Wars was started lol (I'll never forget how pompous Ki Adi Mundi and Mace Windu were when Qui Gon told them that the Sith is probably back :lmao:)....If they had done anything but sit on their asses all day then maybe they could have prevented all of this 

 

And everything that article said about Qui-Gon IS what happened though lol....That article is the result of reading in between the lines and not taking things at face value (Peace keepers that see nothing wrong with Slavery? That's not too surprising since their philosophy believes that emotions are the work of the devil :whistle: )....It all started with Qui-Gon since if you want to, you can even go as far as blaing him for why Anakin was even found and trained.....Qui-Gon was more or less like Rhaegar Targayren....They both fucked their people and the order of things over their obsession of a damn prophecy lol 

 

So by your logic, he went to the location of origin of the Jedi to go sight seeing and sit on his all day ...........Anyway, I said that he clearly went to this planet to learn and a such, he clearly had to have learned something pretty big if he would say a line like this

 

For example......During what I'm assuming is Rey's training, Luke tells her to breathe and then to reach out, followed by him asking "what does she see" which she responds by saying "Light, Darkness, A Balance" (I repeat, good cannot exist without evil, the ying and cannot exist without the yang) followed by Luke saying "Its so much bigger" 

 

Why didn't you watch the trailer dude? Because all of my evidence here came directly from it + information released by Rian Johnson himself....The man has been learning 

Yeah, no. That article, just like the first one, gets a number of things wrong. If you don't want to talk about it though then i'd suggest you stop bringing it up, along with this entire argument about the Jedi being flawed to be honest. You're just wasting your time. I'd wager that i've been around Star Wars just as long as you and clearly been exposed to most of the same materials as far as the old canon go. So, i'd say that it's common sense that you're not suddenly going to bring something up that'll change my mind today. Though honestly i'm not sure why you're surprised, since i've made my thoughts on the Jedi known to you multiple times.  :lolxg:

 

Then if that's the meaning behind it that's not the Jedi ending at all, that's them changing/evolving, which makes everything else a moot point. As I said previously, ending or changing are two different things and my issue here is with the idea that they have to end altogether. If we're moving on to they need to change the argument becomes completely different.

 

Because the Jedi Temple, the primary repository for Jedi knowledge and learning, was still razed to the ground in the films and cartoons. To go back to the EU, Luke once found a fucking starship, which had been a mobile Jedi Academy, full of Jedi knowledge, but that still came nowhere near equaling the amount of knowledge that was lost. Honestly it seems like you're just attempting to prove me wrong by bringing up people finding bits and pieces of Jedi lore, which is pointless, because I never said that ALL Jedi knowledge was lost forever. I said the majority of it which is, again, just common sense seeing as we saw their fucking temple being destroyed in an attack that they had zero warning of.  :lolxg: I'm not downplaying Force Ghosts at all, i'm specifically saying that they, in no canon, have ever done what you seem to think they're going to do for Luke. Who says that Yoda himself even knows how to contact Force Ghosts whenever he wants? Per the EU, he certainly didn't and it was the choice of the Ghost whether or not to show up and contact the Jedi/Force User. Force Ghosts were then never shown to hang around for years teaching Jedi/Force Users every single thing they knew and that was the same case in the OT. Ben shows up at the end of ANH to give Luke advice, again in ESB to counsel Yoda and converse with him, and finally in ROTJ to talk to Luke about his sister, and along with Yoda and Anakin at the finale. Literally none of that counts as teaching Luke, outside of the Death Star bit. Similar to the Holocrons, am I saying that Luke will absolutely not meet any Force Ghosts in the future? Of course not. I'm saying that it's more likely that his meetings with them will be restricted to the brief meetings they were in the film (And in the EU) than them spending days/months together going over Jedi training techniques.  :rolleyes: Though honestly, if the new canon had Force Ghosts doing that i'd also call it bad writing in a way, but for a completely different reason than this Jedi need to end thing.

 

What are you talking about?  :huh: "in regards to the bolded part, he DID reform the things that made the Order flawed". Ok, please point out to me where I said that he didn't? This is the bolded part you referred to:

 

 

and at no point did he ever come close to gaining all the knowledge that his forebears possessed regarding Jedi history. I mean, he even had a few of the old Jedi join his Order and still didn't manage it.

 

Where in this sentence do I say that he didn't reform the Jedi? Newsflash, I didn't, because this sentence isn't about reforming the Jedi. It's about the same thing we've been talking about: how much knowledge Luke gained in comparison to the Old Jedi Order, in which case the comparison simply isn't even worth going into lol but we could literally make a list of the books, holocrons, and repositories of knowledge that Luke gained in the EU and compare it to what various other eras of Jedi in the EU had if you truly want to. I don't see a point, because it's just obvious that Luke between ROTJ and Crucible didn't do what you're trying to argue he did. If you read the EU books, comics, reference guides, and played the games, you should know this. A constant problem for Luke is just how much knowledge was lost and he never really gets over it. A lot of the changes he brings about, in fact, are more due to him not ever knowing the full extent of the rules that the OJO had, because, as i've constantly been saying, he spent what amount to a few weeks officially training with Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 

That quote you posted, along with the 3 changes Luke made, is then pointless to the discussion, because you seem to have misinterpreted my bolded quote for some reason. As i've now explained, my issue was not whether or not Luke made any changes. Obviously he did. We both know and acknowledge that. It was that Luke in the EU never once came close to holding all the knowledge of the Jedi that his forebears had and Luke in the Disney Canon is probably going to go the same way, because the basics of Palpatine and Vader taking out the Jedi are exactly the same. COULD the Disney writers do it differently and have Luke come across an entire underground library of every Jedi Holocron and Manuscript ever made? Sure, anything is possible, but it isn't likely. (Similar to the Force Ghost thing above, i'd also find that to be bad writing).

 

"Why is it so hard for you admit that the Jedi Order we know is full of shit and deserved to get rekt lol"

 

Why does it seem to be so hard for you to understand that I simply don't agree with you? I don't agree with you on Kylo Ren being better than Anakin either, does that shock you as well?  :laugh: 

 

What dark path is Luke going down? I'm not really attempting to use the EU for my benefit purposefully. I'm attempting to make it clear that there is a line between EU Canon and Disney Canon and to attempt to only apply the current set of films and cartoons to the latter, so that we don't start saying that things are justified in the latter because of how they went in the former. Comparisons naturally arise, because a lot of the situations, such as the state of the galaxy after episodes 3 and 6 for example, are going to be exactly the same, but i'm still making an attempt not to blend the two in the same way that i'd make an attempt not to blend the X-Men film franchise with the Comics, because they're simply not the same and operate under different rules. If you wish and to make it easy we could simply not speak of the EU at all. We saw in the EU that pretty much every change Luke made came out of A)necessity or B)a lack of knowledge. Really, I don't remember a single source in which he decides to change something because he thought of the OJO as flawed and hypocritical. For example, he lets his students have romantic relationships not because the OJO didn't and it made them weak (In fact, I don't ever remember him even coming across the fact that they weren't allowed to have such relationships until like the Dark Nest Trilogy, when his order had been up and running for over a decade), but because the majority of students he first trains are adults who have already lived full lives with such relationships (Corran Horn is married and actually searching for his missing wife by the time he first starts officially training at Luke's Praxeum for example). Asking adults to then lose said relationships would be the height of silliness, especially when you're in a situation where you NEED to fill the galaxy with Jedi, are struggling to find Force Users, and therefore just have to accept whoever you can. Does this do away with the OJO's issue? Yes, but it's not for the reason you seem to think it is writing wise.

 

That logic, as always, downplays Palpatine and just how much of a master manipulator and Force User he was. Let's put it all on the Jedi for not being able to stop him and not on him for just being that damn brilliant. 

 

We've covered this before, the Jedi DID see something wrong with slavery, but it's also very obvious as to why it exists, because there are planets and star systems outside of the Republic  :lolxg: The funny thing is that we've actually talked about this at least twice in here and i'll never understand why it keeps coming up. This is akin to asking why crimes are being committed in other countries, but American police aren't going over there and stopping them. Answer? They have zero jurisdiction or even the manpower to do such a thing. Qui-Gon, notably, WANTED to take Shmi with him, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme, but didn't have the money to buy her freedom (That's right, buy, because 2 Jedi Knights aren't about to overturn an entire system of slavery in an area outside of the Republic) and couldn't get her as part of the bargain he struck with Watto for Anakin. I mean, geez, what is wrong with some people. The Jedi, who have no actual military and don't seem to have all that much money either, follow the laws of the Republic and don't randomly fly through the galaxy freeing slaves, which would require them to become involved in countless battles, and somehow they support slavery?  :huh: This is honestly more of a criticism that should be aimed at the Republic, but even then the only real argument people can possibly make is that the Republic, which also did not have a military force until the end of AOTC, should make war with countless planets and star systems in order to end slavery and various other forms of oppression, and criminal practices in the ENTIRE FREAKING GALAXY!

 

By my logic, he went to the planet where the Jedi started. Point. Blank. Simple as pie. There's nothing else to be said about it until the new film is released. I'm not drawing conclusions one way or the other on it, because we simply don't know enough to do so.

 

I'm not into watching trailers for films that I already plan to see.


Edited by Ace1225, 19 September 2017 - 07:07 AM.

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I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#625 DarkNemesis

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 11:31 AM

**Wonders if Luke is actually Supreme Leader Snoke** 

 

:hmm:


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#626 Tokoya

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:38 PM

Yeah, no. That article, just like the first one, gets a number of things wrong. If you don't want to talk about it though then i'd suggest you stop bringing it up, along with this entire argument about the Jedi being flawed to be honest. You're just wasting your time. I'd wager that i've been around Star Wars just as long as you and clearly been exposed to most of the same materials as far as the old canon go. So, i'd say that it's common sense that you're not suddenly going to bring something up that'll change my mind today. Though honestly i'm not sure why you're surprised, since i've made my thoughts on the Jedi known to you multiple times.  :lolxg:

 

Then if that's the meaning behind it that's not the Jedi ending at all, that's them changing/evolving, which makes everything else a moot point. As I said previously, ending or changing are two different things and my issue here is with the idea that they have to end altogether. If we're moving on to they need to change the argument becomes completely different.

 

Because the Jedi Temple, the primary repository for Jedi knowledge and learning, was still razed to the ground in the films and cartoons. To go back to the EU, Luke once found a fucking starship, which had been a mobile Jedi Academy, full of Jedi knowledge, but that still came nowhere near equaling the amount of knowledge that was lost. Honestly it seems like you're just attempting to prove me wrong by bringing up people finding bits and pieces of Jedi lore, which is pointless, because I never said that ALL Jedi knowledge was lost forever. I said the majority of it which is, again, just common sense seeing as we saw their fucking temple being destroyed in an attack that they had zero warning of.  :lolxg: I'm not downplaying Force Ghosts at all, i'm specifically saying that they, in no canon, have ever done what you seem to think they're going to do for Luke. Who says that Yoda himself even knows how to contact Force Ghosts whenever he wants? Per the EU, he certainly didn't and it was the choice of the Ghost whether or not to show up and contact the Jedi/Force User. Force Ghosts were then never shown to hang around for years teaching Jedi/Force Users every single thing they knew and that was the same case in the OT. Ben shows up at the end of ANH to give Luke advice, again in ESB to counsel Yoda and converse with him, and finally in ROTJ to talk to Luke about his sister, and along with Yoda and Anakin at the finale. Literally none of that counts as teaching Luke, outside of the Death Star bit. Similar to the Holocrons, am I saying that Luke will absolutely not meet any Force Ghosts in the future? Of course not. I'm saying that it's more likely that his meetings with them will be restricted to the brief meetings they were in the film (And in the EU) than them spending days/months together going over Jedi training techniques.  :rolleyes: Though honestly, if the new canon had Force Ghosts doing that i'd also call it bad writing in a way, but for a completely different reason than this Jedi need to end thing.

 

What are you talking about?  :huh: "in regards to the bolded part, he DID reform the things that made the Order flawed". Ok, please point out to me where I said that he didn't? This is the bolded part you referred to:

 

 

and at no point did he ever come close to gaining all the knowledge that his forebears possessed regarding Jedi history. I mean, he even had a few of the old Jedi join his Order and still didn't manage it.

 

Where in this sentence do I say that he didn't reform the Jedi? Newsflash, I didn't, because this sentence isn't about reforming the Jedi. It's about the same thing we've been talking about: how much knowledge Luke gained in comparison to the Old Jedi Order, in which case the comparison simply isn't even worth going into lol but we could literally make a list of the books, holocrons, and repositories of knowledge that Luke gained in the EU and compare it to what various other eras of Jedi in the EU had if you truly want to. I don't see a point, because it's just obvious that Luke between ROTJ and Crucible didn't do what you're trying to argue he did. If you read the EU books, comics, reference guides, and played the games, you should know this. A constant problem for Luke is just how much knowledge was lost and he never really gets over it. A lot of the changes he brings about, in fact, are more due to him not ever knowing the full extent of the rules that the OJO had, because, as i've constantly been saying, he spent what amount to a few weeks officially training with Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 

That quote you posted, along with the 3 changes Luke made, is then pointless to the discussion, because you seem to have misinterpreted my bolded quote for some reason. As i've now explained, my issue was not whether or not Luke made any changes. Obviously he did. We both know and acknowledge that. It was that Luke in the EU never once came close to holding all the knowledge of the Jedi that his forebears had and Luke in the Disney Canon is probably going to go the same way, because the basics of Palpatine and Vader taking out the Jedi are exactly the same. COULD the Disney writers do it differently and have Luke come across an entire underground library of every Jedi Holocron and Manuscript ever made? Sure, anything is possible, but it isn't likely. (Similar to the Force Ghost thing above, i'd also find that to be bad writing).

 

"Why is it so hard for you admit that the Jedi Order we know is full of shit and deserved to get rekt lol"

 

Why does it seem to be so hard for you to understand that I simply don't agree with you? I don't agree with you on Kylo Ren being better than Anakin either, does that shock you as well?  :laugh: 

 

What dark path is Luke going down? I'm not really attempting to use the EU for my benefit purposefully. I'm attempting to make it clear that there is a line between EU Canon and Disney Canon and to attempt to only apply the current set of films and cartoons to the latter, so that we don't start saying that things are justified in the latter because of how they went in the former. Comparisons naturally arise, because a lot of the situations, such as the state of the galaxy after episodes 3 and 6 for example, are going to be exactly the same, but i'm still making an attempt not to blend the two in the same way that i'd make an attempt not to blend the X-Men film franchise with the Comics, because they're simply not the same and operate under different rules. If you wish and to make it easy we could simply not speak of the EU at all. We saw in the EU that pretty much every change Luke made came out of A)necessity or B)a lack of knowledge. Really, I don't remember a single source in which he decides to change something because he thought of the OJO as flawed and hypocritical. For example, he lets his students have romantic relationships not because the OJO didn't and it made them weak (In fact, I don't ever remember him even coming across the fact that they weren't allowed to have such relationships until like the Dark Nest Trilogy, when his order had been up and running for over a decade), but because the majority of students he first trains are adults who have already lived full lives with such relationships (Corran Horn is married and actually searching for his missing wife by the time he first starts officially training at Luke's Praxeum for example). Asking adults to then lose said relationships would be the height of silliness, especially when you're in a situation where you NEED to fill the galaxy with Jedi, are struggling to find Force Users, and therefore just have to accept whoever you can. Does this do away with the OJO's issue? Yes, but it's not for the reason you seem to think it is writing wise.

 

That logic, as always, downplays Palpatine and just how much of a master manipulator and Force User he was. Let's put it all on the Jedi for not being able to stop him and not on him for just being that damn brilliant. 

 

We've covered this before, the Jedi DID see something wrong with slavery, but it's also very obvious as to why it exists, because there are planets and star systems outside of the Republic  :lolxg: The funny thing is that we've actually talked about this at least twice in here and i'll never understand why it keeps coming up. This is akin to asking why crimes are being committed in other countries, but American police aren't going over there and stopping them. Answer? They have zero jurisdiction or even the manpower to do such a thing. Qui-Gon, notably, WANTED to take Shmi with him, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme, but didn't have the money to buy her freedom (That's right, buy, because 2 Jedi Knights aren't about to overturn an entire system of slavery in an area outside of the Republic) and couldn't get her as part of the bargain he struck with Watto for Anakin. I mean, geez, what is wrong with some people. The Jedi, who have no actual military and don't seem to have all that much money either, follow the laws of the Republic and don't randomly fly through the galaxy freeing slaves, which would require them to become involved in countless battles, and somehow they support slavery?  :huh: This is honestly more of a criticism that should be aimed at the Republic, but even then the only real argument people can possibly make is that the Republic, which also did not have a military force until the end of AOTC, should make war with countless planets and star systems in order to end slavery and various other forms of oppression, and criminal practices in the ENTIRE FREAKING GALAXY!

 

By my logic, he went to the planet where the Jedi started. Point. Blank. Simple as pie. There's nothing else to be said about it until the new film is released. I'm not drawing conclusions one way or the other on it, because we simply don't know enough to do so.

 

I'm not into watching trailers for films that I already plan to see.

This is clearly going nowhere my guy....Let's just end this conversation here lol


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Nothing will stand in our way.....I will finish what you started....I will fulfill our destiny!

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#627 Ace1225

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:54 PM

This is clearly going nowhere my guy....Let's just end this conversation here lol

Agreed.

 

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I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#628 DarkNemesis

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 03:40 PM

 

If there was a Jedi Class for memes, you'd be its Obi-Wan.


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Kubo's announcement will be his new work will be called Tide; not as strong as bleach but does its trolling in a more colorful fashion! - arcane_chaos

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