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#141 retroluffy13

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 07:28 PM

Why do i owe the US.
 
http://www.slate.com...ders_could.html
 
Um that would fix a lot of problems. They should do the same in Africa as well.

1. for putting rapists and crimminals in jail.

2. for providing you with a place to live guaranteed free from invasion.

Edited by retroluffy13, 24 February 2016 - 07:28 PM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

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when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.


#142 Misty

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 07:42 PM

1. The US didn't do that, people did that. If the people didn't do that, there wouldn't be a US, and there'd be revenge issues.

2. They don't do that either. They just promise that if there is an invasion they'll let us stop the invaders ourselves and make the explosions happen to the invaders. .

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Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.'

'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.'

'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'

 

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#143 DarkNemesis

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 07:45 PM

Isn't the US, the people?


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#144 retroluffy13

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 07:53 PM

1. The US didn't do that, people did that. If the people didn't do that, there wouldn't be a US, and there'd be revenge issues.

2. They don't do that either. They just promise that if there is an invasion they'll let us stop the invaders ourselves and make the explosions happen to the invaders. .

1. the poliece force is an institution of the government you pay for with your tax dollars. ergo the government did it. without the institution to house the system it wouldn't be nearly as powerful or efficient as it is.

2. pearl harbor called. they want their boats back.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

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also some ear kandy
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when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.


#145 waleuska

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 08:06 PM

1. for putting rapists and crimminals in jail.

2. for providing you with a place to live guaranteed free from invasion.

They would also put me in jail for having a little bit of weed.

 

That isn't saying much the world is just a safer place.


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#146 retroluffy13

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 08:09 PM

They would also put me in jail for having a little bit of weed.
 
That isn't saying much the world is just a safer place.

come to Colorado dude. all are welcome.

the world is a MUCH safer place thatnks to government. and that's all ill ever argue you owe them for.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

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also some ear kandy
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when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.


#147 Ganderath

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 09:15 PM

2. pearl harbor called. they want their boats back.

 

Funny enough, Yamamoto believed that the US had the advantage over any invader due to the concept of the "citizen soldier"(which isn't nearly as prevalent nowadays, but fits in with the thread).


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#148 retroluffy13

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 09:17 PM

Funny enough, Yamamoto believed that the US had the advantage over any invader due to the concept of the "citizen soldier"(which isn't nearly as prevalent nowadays, but fits in with the thread).

that's basicly my argument for why amrica could take china in a "fist fight"

Edited by retroluffy13, 24 February 2016 - 09:19 PM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

Spoiler


also some ear kandy
Spoiler

when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.


#149 Misty

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 11:53 AM


Isn't the US, the people?


Dunno, depends on how you look at it. I look at the US more as an idea that people subscribe to and then the idea causes them to do certain things they might not otherwise do.
But I don't think living on this particular land mass in any way necessitates subscription to that idea and if I'm a forced subscriber then I don't see why I'm supposed to appreciate being forced to subscribe or told to get out by a lot of other subscribers. Maybe I don't want to subscribe and I don't want to leave this very charming land mass.
 

1. the poliece force is an institution of the government you pay for with your tax dollars. ergo the government did it. without the institution to house the system it wouldn't be nearly as powerful or efficient as it is.


>assuming I pay taxes

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, the people demanded that this institution exist and then made it exist. (Some of them are quite sad they did these days.) You don't need the idea of the US to make that happen. Law and justice enforcement predate the modern government as it is. Used to be when someone stole your chicken, you went and kicked the shit out of him yourself and dragged him in for a hanging or a hand loss. Used to be when someone took your daughter by force you rounded up everyone else with daughters and went to let him know how you feel about that. The idea that we wouldn't have some system of law enforcement that is effective without the government is frankly ridiculous.

And just speaking on my law enforcement, they aren't effective, they're so ineffective it makes me blush. They don't stop almost any form of law-breaking besides parking ticketing and they've created so many new forms of law breaking that the tried and true murder theft rarely gets a day in court.

I won't say thank you for them creating the problems and then solving them badly. I won't say thank you for a system that is corrupted. I won't say thank you for something I don't believe needs to exist.
The only time I say thank you for crappy gifts is when my granny gives me socks at Christmas. And at least the socks keep my feet warm.
 

2. pearl harbor called. they want their boats back.


You mean the pearl harbor from the war where they drafted 10 million men against their will and extended their service?
That particular pearl harbor? The one that like every military base is run by citizens like you and me?
That one that had to repel attacks by invaders, an action carried out by male citizens just like you and me?
I'm supposed to thank the US for that? I'm supposed to thank the US for allowing my uncles, grandfathers, and cousins to defend themselves from an act of war?

I think you might have this backwards. The US, the concept and all the people subscribed to that concept, should be thanking my cousins, grandfathers, and uncles for having defend them. Which, tbf, they regularly do.

But I don't have to thank the US for jackshit. I might have to thank the people around me, but the day I'm thanking the government for anything is the day that dementia which runs in the women in my family finally catches up.

You don't have to thank your country or government for anything. They're both paid servants. If they don't do that, they aren't doing their fucking job and should be fired. And from where I'm standing, they're doing such a shitty job in both law enforcement and military that they should be fired on those alone.

Edited by Misty, 25 February 2016 - 11:54 AM.

tumblr_nppka9tuR81tgmuxgo1_r3_500.jpg

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.'

'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.'

'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'

 

Go Ask Me Questions On Ma Question Time and Vote for the Next One!


#150 retroluffy13

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 01:09 PM

Dunno, depends on how you look at it. I look at the US more as an idea that people subscribe to and then the idea causes them to do certain things they might not otherwise do.
But I don't think living on this particular land mass in any way necessitates subscription to that idea and if I'm a forced subscriber then I don't see why I'm supposed to appreciate being forced to subscribe or told to get out by a lot of other subscribers. Maybe I don't want to subscribe and I don't want to leave this very charming land mass.
 

>assuming I pay taxes

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, the people demanded that this institution exist and then made it exist. (Some of them are quite sad they did these days.) You don't need the idea of the US to make that happen. Law and justice enforcement predate the modern government as it is. Used to be when someone stole your chicken, you went and kicked the shit out of him yourself and dragged him in for a hanging or a hand loss. Used to be when someone took your daughter by force you rounded up everyone else with daughters and went to let him know how you feel about that. The idea that we wouldn't have some system of law enforcement that is effective without the government is frankly ridiculous.

And just speaking on my law enforcement, they aren't effective, they're so ineffective it makes me blush. They don't stop almost any form of law-breaking besides parking ticketing and they've created so many new forms of law breaking that the tried and true murder theft rarely gets a day in court.

I won't say thank you for them creating the problems and then solving them badly. I won't say thank you for a system that is corrupted. I won't say thank you for something I don't believe needs to exist.
The only time I say thank you for crappy gifts is when my granny gives me socks at Christmas. And at least the socks keep my feet warm.
 

You mean the pearl harbor from the war where they drafted 10 million men against their will and extended their service?
That particular pearl harbor? The one that like every military base is run by citizens like you and me?
That one that had to repel attacks by invaders, an action carried out by male citizens just like you and me?
I'm supposed to thank the US for that? I'm supposed to thank the US for allowing my uncles, grandfathers, and cousins to defend themselves from an act of war?

I think you might have this backwards. The US, the concept and all the people subscribed to that concept, should be thanking my cousins, grandfathers, and uncles for having defend them. Which, tbf, they regularly do.

But I don't have to thank the US for jackshit. I might have to thank the people around me, but the day I'm thanking the government for anything is the day that dementia which runs in the women in my family finally catches up.

You don't have to thank your country or government for anything. They're both paid servants. If they don't do that, they aren't doing their fucking job and should be fired. And from where I'm standing, they're doing such a shitty job in both law enforcement and military that they should be fired on those alone.

nobody has to live in the us. they can all leave any time they want to. they can all chose to rebel any time they want to. they can all chose to ust up and stop paying headence to the government if they wanted to. nobody is stuck here. as individuals maybe. but that's a flawed concept from the get go. nobody wants to ust up and escape reality on their own if they did and could they would. but most people lack the ability to do so which is why hardly anybody maes it as a recluse hermit. your not the only person I the world physically incapable of complete personal indendancy. do what others in that situation do and learn to cope. otherwise your just complaining because life dealt you a shit hand which is fine but is no one fault so dont fucking blame them for it, certainly not the us.

as humans we have to share our power with eachother to accomplish anything great. that is simply a fact. without government and human's coming and woring together nothing would ever get done in life. ever. there would be no geniuses because everyone would have to start from the beginning. YOU OWE EVERYTHING YOU ARE TO YOUR NATIONAL AND WORLD HISTORY. misty would not exist if the us didn't exist. if governments didn't exist. if people never worked together.


that's all government is. the cconcieved notion that, working together we can accomplish what alone we could not. to say you owe nothing to the nation that kept you safe fro the wrath of what the world is really like. the wrath of nature. the destiny of the animal struggle for dominance. government kept that all away frm you. the us kept that all away from you. this is fact.

the apenese are the first people to invade American soil since the exican American war. compare that to early civilization that was always going to war over territory and the diference is clear enough. the idea of government has kept you tremendously much safer then had it not been around.

compare that to friggen African and middle eastern nations that are currently going through what it was like before the world had government and the picture is clear enough. expecially afrian nations as a lot of them pricks are ust at war with themselves and not outside forces.

people who didn't want to be drafted weren't drafted. they left the ountry and never came back because they didn't agre. people have choice. the government isn't monolith by any means. do you know how friggen easy it is for e to go out and break the law without getting caught? very. and whether that makes me a criminal or simply a free man is just a matter of perspective. the perspective that I'm a criminal if I break the law only comes into pay when you have a united concept of what "we" believe is right or wrong. wthout that united concept there is no law or order only decisions.

that's what government offers. it offers people who want that protection frothe natural order of the unkown from being enslaved to the whis of destiny. but its never stopped you from ignoring that protection and taking matters into your own hands.

Edited by retroluffy13, 25 February 2016 - 01:10 PM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

Spoiler


also some ear kandy
Spoiler

when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.


#151 Misty

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 02:43 PM

Oh geeze, I don't even know where to begin. Can you possibly reduce everything there to five sentences that are all cohesive?


While you're at it, please consider that government and humans socializing are not the same thing. Nor is a governing body, laws, and the people who create and people who live under them the same thing. You don't need a government for laws. You don't need people for laws. You don't need a government for humans to work together or socialize.

I don't owe shit to the government of any era. I owe shit to people who I allowed to help me and helped in return. If you really think a government is the only thing keeping people together then I don't think we have any grounds to converse on because we obviously see humanity very differently.

tumblr_nppka9tuR81tgmuxgo1_r3_500.jpg

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.'

'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.'

'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'

 

Go Ask Me Questions On Ma Question Time and Vote for the Next One!


#152 DarkNemesis

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 02:46 PM

You don't need a government for laws. You don't need people for laws.


:psyduck:

I mean ... I understand that people don't need to be in government or have a government (formal or otherwise) to make laws. But people do have to make the laws. And people do have to enforce the laws or choose to not enforce them. Laws don't come from nowhere. They come from people.


Sidenote: Is your signature saying that Christianity is communism? :lol:

Edited by DarkNemesis, 25 February 2016 - 02:48 PM.

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#153 retroluffy13

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 03:03 PM

If you really think a government is the only thing keeping people together then I don't think we have any grounds to converse on because we obviously see humanity very differently.

this is where the misunderstanding takes place. you see government as a tool used to bring people together. I see government as the undeniable result of what happens when humans work together. like literally you can call it anything else. working together. tribal communism. ect. its government and to say otherwise is ust the ignorant claim of whats right in front of your face. governments just what we call it when a people grou together on a massive scale. that massive scale is the only thing that creates pece and keeps people together. without the scale and scope of the organization a lot moe people would die without getting the chance to live. or at the very least wed all be in our own separate groups separated.

Edited by retroluffy13, 25 February 2016 - 03:30 PM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

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also some ear kandy
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when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.


#154 retroluffy13

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 03:40 PM

there are three kids in a park unsupervised. two of these kids are friends. they decide on this day to impose their will on the third kid.

these two kids have become a small form of government. they have power and have excersized it against another. they work together to accomplish a common goal. they are government.

Edited by retroluffy13, 25 February 2016 - 03:42 PM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

Spoiler


also some ear kandy
Spoiler

when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.


#155 DarkNemesis

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 03:44 PM

if government == unelected, forcibly imposed, dual-dictatorship, then yes, you are correct.

Edited by DarkNemesis, 25 February 2016 - 03:44 PM.

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#156 retroluffy13

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 04:04 PM

if government == unelected, forcibly imposed, dual-dictatorship, then yes, you are correct.

never aid the third kid was apart of the governemt. but the two others are definitely. the third kid would be more akin to a slave in this instance or a wild animal almost.
 

my point is. in civics class we define governments not nessisarily by the people of the nation but by those who rule it.  in every case.  dictatorship is one guy calling all the shots, democracy is majority rule, a republic means a round table of individuals make the laws, ect. pople who aren't I charge got nothing to do with government which is how I can say firmly that in every single case, government is the result of people working together.​

 

even in dictatorship.  one man draws his power from those wiling to give it to him.  one man alone can't run an empire he needs loyal soldiers to go out and spread his will.  to give him their power.


Edited by retroluffy13, 25 February 2016 - 04:06 PM.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

Spoiler


also some ear kandy
Spoiler

when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.


#157 Misty

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 11:45 PM

I mean ... I understand that people don't need to be in government or have a government (formal or otherwise) to make laws. But people do have to make the laws. And people do have to enforce the laws or choose to not enforce them. Laws don't come from nowhere. They come from people.


I was including the concept of natural laws. Such as, if this rock goes up, it's going to come down. I don't know a human who invented that one so much as observed it and told everyone else. But I've always had the sneaking suspicion we all knew that before he got round to putting it down on paper because how else would we have dropped rocks on each other?

Sometimes, humans simply observe natural laws, but those don't require us to exist or be true.

Sidenote: Is your signature saying that Christianity is communism? :lol:


Well, I believe it is more broadly aimed at religion and broader still at the concept of altruism, but I don't see why it cannot be read as you say. That is not, however how I would read it. :)



my point is. in civics class we define governments not nessisarily by the people of the nation but by those who rule it.


My point is, that how you define it is fundamentally flawed because you're presuming that any time people do anything together it is government. But it isn't. Government has a formalness built into that one does not find among even children.

And in every single case of government is people "working together" not every case of working together is government.

Depends, it seems that by your definition if there are two people together in cohesion and one dictates to the other, he is a dictator without soldiers and simply does so on the merit of his own power.

tumblr_nppka9tuR81tgmuxgo1_r3_500.jpg

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.'

'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.'

'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'

 

Go Ask Me Questions On Ma Question Time and Vote for the Next One!


#158 retroluffy13

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 06:30 AM

I was including the concept of natural laws. Such as, if this rock goes up, it's going to come down. I don't know a human who invented that one so much as observed it and told everyone else. But I've always had the sneaking suspicion we all knew that before he got round to putting it down on paper because how else would we have dropped rocks on each other?

Sometimes, humans simply observe natural laws, but those don't require us to exist or be true.


Well, I believe it is more broadly aimed at religion and broader still at the concept of altruism, but I don't see why it cannot be read as you say. That is not, however how I would read it. :)




My point is, that how you define it is fundamentally flawed because you're presuming that any time people do anything together it is government. But it isn't. Government has a formalness built into that one does not find among even children.

And in every single case of government is people "working together" not every case of working together is government.

Depends, it seems that by your definition if there are two people together in cohesion and one dictates to the other, he is a dictator without soldiers and simply does so on the merit of his own power.

did you ever have a lemonade stand as a kid? it teaches kids who do a few lessons ther kids the same age wont learn till they start flipping patties at mcdonalds as teens. namely it teaches a kid everything he needs to know growing up about how to run and operate a successful business.

politics and government are the exact same way except take away lemonade stand and business and substitute group of friends for government. even though oobviousy the government is much re complicated and beurocratic then a small group of friends are, you still observe the same organizational structure in a small group of friends as you do in a large government. as with government, kids always have hierarchy. there is always someone in charge to some degree. the person or people in charge ar ecpected to organize the groups actions in such a way that will ultimately benefit the group over other groups. every member serves some sort of function that ultimately benefits their group of friends and helps to keep them together. and both work together to achieve a goal of some sort.

my point is. jus like a lemonade stand is the precursor to buisness so too is social life a precursor to government. the two ae built on the same foundation of inner workings, just to completely differing scales. in fact, if one were to not take size and scoop into account when observing social life as compared to government one realizes that there really is no sizable difference between one and the other. and that though we don't call it the same word because obviously government is something really huge and bureaucratic, the two words embody the same ideas and a thus the same thing. just to differing scopes.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

Spoiler


also some ear kandy
Spoiler

when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.


#159 Misty

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 04:01 PM

I think perhaps I'll just keep throwing this back at you:

Every single case of government is people working together. Not every single case of working together is government.

Government assumes a formalized quality to it. I've rarely seen children be so formalized in their interactions. Government is a thoughtful enterprise that accounts for masses, not individuals in particular. Children are a thoughtless enterprise that at best accounts for individuals.

You seem to also be conflating any sort of organization to government. A family is not a government even by your most generalized possible definition, because once again, it's chief consideration is for a few select individuals and although thoughtfullness is being brought by adults, it is not country level thoughtfullness, it's grocery budget level thoughtfullness.

This comparison you keep making is far too general to be of any particular use to anything.

Governments do not seek to specifically make anyone's life better. They seek to make the country's life better sometimes at the expense of the individual and even the people within that government.


And to bring this back around to nationalism, I've always seen nationalism of a cultural variety as the sort of thing that's actually quite good for uniting peoples of differing classes and contexts.
It's one of the reasons I find this new stuff about "cultural appropriation" so damn dangerous. If you want to foster multiculturalism, having kids wanting to dress up as other cultures, celebrating other cultures holidays, eating other cultures foods is one of the fastest and best ways to achieve this.

Despite that, I do think it's quite difficult to blend so many different cultures at once.

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Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.'

'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.'

'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'

 

Go Ask Me Questions On Ma Question Time and Vote for the Next One!


#160 retroluffy13

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 11:36 AM

I think perhaps I'll just keep throwing this back at you:

Every single case of government is people working together. Not every single case of working together is government.

Government assumes a formalized quality to it. I've rarely seen children be so formalized in their interactions. Government is a thoughtful enterprise that accounts for masses, not individuals in particular. Children are a thoughtless enterprise that at best accounts for individuals.

You seem to also be conflating any sort of organization to government. A family is not a government even by your most generalized possible definition, because once again, it's chief consideration is for a few select individuals and although thoughtfullness is being brought by adults, it is not country level thoughtfullness, it's grocery budget level thoughtfullness.

This comparison you keep making is far too general to be of any particular use to anything.

Governments do not seek to specifically make anyone's life better. They seek to make the country's life better sometimes at the expense of the individual and even the people within that government.


And to bring this back around to nationalism, I've always seen nationalism of a cultural variety as the sort of thing that's actually quite good for uniting peoples of differing classes and contexts.
It's one of the reasons I find this new stuff about "cultural appropriation" so damn dangerous. If you want to foster multiculturalism, having kids wanting to dress up as other cultures, celebrating other cultures holidays, eating other cultures foods is one of the fastest and best ways to achieve this.

Despite that, I do think it's quite difficult to blend so many different cultures at once.

then you've oviously never had any inteeration with American ganglad. the act of te matter is there are a TON of kids who oin up with that shit and partake in what can only e described as a smaller internat social governmental sect.

when your in a gang, you put in work. commit crimes. fight over territory. take beatings for the crew. steal. deal. ect. everything to put on for your crew. organized crime s the only argment I should need to make to illustrate my point.

in fudal apan, a father was considered the god of his house. it was his CIVIC DUTY to delegate and oversee the affairs of his family else he be shunned and made to suffer the conseuensses himself. yea. a family is exactly like the government, kids are exactly like citizens, and parents are exactly like rulers. and two brothers fighting is the same as a socal struggle for "superiority within"

governments by design seek to mae only the life of their citizens better. to keep them from the natural order of the word. I your government isn't eeping you safe, peple either need to leave or rebel. I don't know what else to say man.

i mean nationalism is always going to exist. this much is true. but its the extent we exaggerate it that needs to be addressed. i say we should never raise ur feelings of nationalism to anything higher then a whisper.we can have pride. but modest pride lest tragedy strike.

th blending cant even begin doe if we don't stop knoking down some walls and giving it an honest try. nationalism in the sense that people like trident r Donald trump see it is definitely no good for thew world nor will it bring anyone closer together.

 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

Spoiler


also some ear kandy
Spoiler

when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.





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