Jump to content


Photo

Boruto Chapter 2 Discussion


  • Please log in to reply
259 replies to this topic

#241 Ultrafragor

Ultrafragor

    Exorcist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,205 posts
  • LocationVigrid

Posted 29 June 2016 - 12:45 PM

It's a leap to say he invented either racism or segregation, especially since all of the clans were at war with one another in the previous era. And in terms of the Hyuuga that's something that you then have to throw at every Hokage from Hashirama down to Naruto.


Being at war is different than taking one clan and saying they have to live by themselves in a separate area because they are inherently dangerous or evil.

Forgoing deplomacy was a severe step towards securing peace for the village and that makes it stand out even more how tobirama let other clans misbehave as much as they wanted.
  • Orikushinu, OP Eyes FTW and ixSheng like this

0680-007%20-%20Copy_zpsyjmuhkna.png


#242 OP Eyes FTW

OP Eyes FTW

    Warrior

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,060 posts

Posted 29 June 2016 - 04:08 PM

Tobirama doesn't believe in due process, apparently. 


Over-Powered Eyes For the Win!


#243 Ace1225

Ace1225

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,820 posts

Posted 29 June 2016 - 04:14 PM

Being at war is different than taking one clan and saying they have to live by themselves in a separate area because they are inherently dangerous or evil.

Forgoing deplomacy was a severe step towards securing peace for the village and that makes it stand out even more how tobirama let other clans misbehave as much as they wanted.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's a leap to suggest that neither racism or segregation ever existed beforehand, which is the point that I was making. In a world where every clan was sticking together and coming into conflict with the other I find that to be completely unbelievable. That'd be like saying Madara invented betrayal or that Sasuke invented revenge.

 

"they have to live by themselves in a separate area because they are inherently dangerous or evil"

 

Also Tobirama didn't say this, specifically noting that he gave the Clan a job he believed they would be good at, while also explaining his belief in their tendency to be emotionally unstable.

 

And what clans did Tobirama allow to misbehave? There are the Hyuuga and no others come to mind. And as I said previously, the Hyuuga issue falls on the shoulders of every single Hokage, Naruto included, because that isn't something that's ever been stated to have started during Tobirama's reign and it certainly didn't end with it either.


Edited by Ace1225, 29 June 2016 - 04:16 PM.

  • Darthwin likes this

I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#244 Ultrafragor

Ultrafragor

    Exorcist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,205 posts
  • LocationVigrid

Posted 29 June 2016 - 06:14 PM


That still doesn't change the fact that it's a leap to suggest that neither racism or segregation ever existed beforehand, which is the point that I was making. In a world where every clan was sticking together and coming into conflict with the other I find that to be completely unbelievable. That'd be like saying Madara invented betrayal or that Sasuke invented revenge.

 

"racism" as it existed in Konoha or Kiri, requires a mixed population living together that exclude a single group from their mix. 

 

People can be prejudiced, but there has to be certain qualities held by the people they are prejudiced against before it can qualify as racism. Even if one clan thought another was evil, it doesn't really rise past the level of superstition or intolerance until it occurs in an organized fashion in a social setting. Tobirama was a racist on his own, but what I'm more focusing on is him creating second class citizens in his society. He took the Uchiha and placed them on a different, lower level than everyone else. 

 

That is unlikely to have occurred before the ninja villages since their world seemed to just be made up of on chakra users and ninja clans for hire. The clans had no real societal organization resembling a present day one or one that he non chakra users would have had. For the non chakra users, their society probably had a caste system like ancient japan did, where your social standing was determined by your profession. These settings aren't conducive to good ol' American racism. 

 


Also Tobirama didn't say this, specifically noting that he gave the Clan a job he believed they would be good at, while also explaining his belief in their tendency to be emotionally unstable.

 

and Orochimaru fired right back that making them police officers would ostracize them in the minds of the other villagers. Was that part of Tobirama's plan or an unintended consequence? Could a man like Tobirama really overlook or fail to notice such a consequence?

 


And what clans did Tobirama allow to misbehave? There are the Hyuuga and no others come to mind. And as I said previously, the Hyuuga issue falls on the shoulders of every single Hokage, Naruto included, because that isn't something that's ever been stated to have started during Tobirama's reign and it certainly didn't end with it either.

 

Does their collective guilt make his any less? 


0680-007%20-%20Copy_zpsyjmuhkna.png


#245 KUROkami

KUROkami

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,199 posts
  • LocationHyperbolic Time Chamber

Posted 29 June 2016 - 06:15 PM

Tobirama- invented racism and segregation to exclude a specific clan from the Hidden Leaf's society because he did not trust them. For the good of the village! (did nothing about the clan that was enslaving its own members to a life of servitude with cursed seals and excruciating torture)


Lmao this shit made me laugh

#246 Narubi

Narubi

    Forever Dreaming

  • Blessed by Uglypuff
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,125 posts
  • LocationSitting alone in the dark, and contemplating life.

Posted 29 June 2016 - 07:25 PM


no others come to mind.

 

Also note that we never really got into the politics of other clans. 

So it's hard to say if there were any other offenders or not, like that of the Hyuga.

 

At best all we got is a name, and certain abilities passed along, infused, or created, within the clans themselves.


Show me the way to go home - I'm tired and I want to go to bed
I had a little drink about an hour ago - And it’s gone right to my head
Wherever I may roam - On land or sea or foam
You can always hear me singing this song
Show me the way to go home.

#247 ddboy102

ddboy102

    Less Beautiful than DEW

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,295 posts

Posted 29 June 2016 - 11:44 PM

I'm glad you asked that question my friend. To provide a few examples:

 

Fugaku- Ignored one son in favor of the other, causing his second son to grow up craving his father's attention and wondering if his father even loved him, beginning a lifelong trend of emotional instability in said second son.

 

Minato- Sealed a demon into his son on the day he was born even though his wife offered to drag said demon down to hell/afterlife with her. He did however do this to leave the village with a powerful tool to fight off a new enemy, but then forgot to actually leave any information or instructions concerning the enemy. Also had a chance to save his son's life over 15 years later, again on his son's birthday no less, and failed. Sealed a piece of himself inside his son in the event that the demon he also sealed inside his son ever ran wild.

 

Asuma- Never met his daughter, but died in the line of duty protecting the village and tasked his prize pupil with protecting his daughter and lover.

 

Hashirama- Spoiled his granddaughter and taught her to gamble. Never mentions his grandson.

 

Naruto- Has to split his time between home and work and therefore has the tendency to simply send Kage Bunshin home to spend time with his family, causing him to sometimes screw up in the event that the Kage Bunshin is destroyed while at home and his son to resent him for not being home more.

 

Sasuke- Has the power to teleport, move at high speeds, access to telephones, computers, and messenger falcolns, but didn't actually speak to his daughter until she was 12 or even bother to contact her. Also attempted to kill her the first time they met, ensuring that the history of emotional instability will continue on to the next generation.

 

In comparison

 

Hinata- Has to deal with her husband having a job that requires him to be away from home on a regular basis (Away from home of course just being somewhere else in the same village), but seems to stay at home and take care of her children with little issue, causing neither of them to have any negative feelings towards her.

 

Sakura- Got knocked up and was abandoned not long after by her old teammate, pushed on and raised her daughter by herself, providing everything she needed to grow up, successfully complete her basic education, and to become an active ninja within the village.

 

Kushina- Pushed her body to the point of death, arguably beyond her natural limits, in order to protect her son from Tobi, and was also willing to drag a demon down to hell/afterlife with her in order to protect her son. Had a piece of herself sealed inside her son so that she could meet him when he was older. Helped her son during one of his greatest hours of need and allowed him to gain control of the demon his father sealed inside him, something that she herself never managed to do.

 

Kurenai- Lover died before their child was born and she therefore raised said child primarily on her own, with her daughter also growing up to become a successful ninja who is apparently trusted enough to help guard the former Hokage.

 

So all of that being said I think you get something of a mixed bag as far as parents go. From the little you see of a few different ones it's clear that not all of them are bad. There are just prominent examples of bad parents in the series and Sasuke just stands tall as one of the worst. Minus that Cell incident i'd call him a worse dad than Goku.

 

Don't Forget Garra's dad who

 

 Had an old lady seal a demon into his son which caused his premature birth and the death of his mother. He then goes on to ostracize him from his siblings and the villagers in his attempt to use his child as a weapon,  having the one person close to him attempt to kill him on a suicide mission. Lets him decent into madness and eventually become a mass murderer.   


Edited by ddboy102, 29 June 2016 - 11:58 PM.

  • Ace1225 and Chillman like this

438b6dc4-4b96-40ed-91e3-93581b8572b6_zps

“When you play the game of thrones you win or you die. There is no middle ground.” 

 

 

Spoiler Cersei Quotes

#248 Ace1225

Ace1225

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,820 posts

Posted 30 June 2016 - 12:59 AM

"racism" as it existed in Konoha or Kiri, requires a mixed population living together that exclude a single group from their mix. 

 

People can be prejudiced, but there has to be certain qualities held by the people they are prejudiced against before it can qualify as racism. Even if one clan thought another was evil, it doesn't really rise past the level of superstition or intolerance until it occurs in an organized fashion in a social setting. Tobirama was a racist on his own, but what I'm more focusing on is him creating second class citizens in his society. He took the Uchiha and placed them on a different, lower level than everyone else. 

 

That is unlikely to have occurred before the ninja villages since their world seemed to just be made up of on chakra users and ninja clans for hire. The clans had no real societal organization resembling a present day one or one that he non chakra users would have had. For the non chakra users, their society probably had a caste system like ancient japan did, where your social standing was determined by your profession. These settings aren't conducive to good ol' American racism. 

 

 

 

 

and Orochimaru fired right back that making them police officers would ostracize them in the minds of the other villagers. Was that part of Tobirama's plan or an unintended consequence? Could a man like Tobirama really overlook or fail to notice such a consequence?

 

 

 

 

Does their collective guilt make his any less? 

Again, that assumes there was zero racism in the village before Tobirama came along, which remains a ridiculous claim on your part.  :lolxg:  And that's not what happened with the Uchiha at all. They weren't placed on a lower level. They were given a special position that actually gave them authority over all the other clans in the village, along with their own special section of the village to live in, which really isn't any different from the Hyuuga having their own area.

 

"That is unlikely to have occurred before the ninja villages "

 

Baseless assumption being made to pass something off as a fact. Your original statement, that Tobirama invented racism and segregation in the Ninja World, is quite simply a fantastic leap to even begin making and you can't even begin to prove it.

 

Orochimaru made that statement in response to Tobirama pointing out that a coup was expected of the Uchiha, because there had been rebellious elements within their clan in the past. After Orochimaru's statement concerning Tobirama's policies, Tobirama then explained why he did what he did, pointing out that he gave them 1)a job they'd be good at and 2)a position that would allow a new Madara to be easily noticed and smacked down as soon as possible. None of this really comes off as racism due to 1)Tobirama not holding any specific hate towards the Uchiha and 2)not actually looking down on the Uchiha for baseless reasons. He instead looks at their very real history of infighting, mental instability, and betrayal in the case of Madara, while also noting their skills with the Sharingan and powerful chakra to influence the decisions he makes regarding them. Again, all of these things aren't assumptions on his part or baseless claims he is making. They are actual facts about the Uchiha Clan based on its history (And he still gives praise to the clan as well, noting the great love they are capable of holding for one another, along with the dark side to that love). If i'm teaching a student who comes from a family where the majority of the members have a heart disease or lets say Schizophrenia and I take precautions to prepare for either one i'm not being racist. I'm being cautious. In Tobirama's case to even begin citing him as a racist you'd have to assume/prove that he specifically wanted the outcomes that Orochimaru claimed happened, such as ostracization, which there is no evidence of. Otherwise you're just making another claim that can't be proven.

 

Tobirama isn't any less guilty of allowing the Hyuuga to enslave their own than any of the other Hokage. You specifically cited Tobirama however and ignored the opportunity to mention the others, which comes across as blaming him and not them. This makes even less sense i'd say seeing as how he wasn't even the First Hokage and this is something that he simply inherited, whereas the other things at least involve practices that are specific to him alone.


 

Don't Forget Garra's dad who

 

-  Had an old lady seal a demon into his son which caused his premature birth and the death of his mother. He then goes on to ostracize him from his siblings and the villagers in his attempt to use his child as a weapon,  having the one person close to him attempt to kill him on a suicide mission. Lets him decent into madness and eventually become a mass murderer.   

Definitely a prime example of a bad parent. Really the fact that he caused the entire problem and then attempted to kill Gaara for it makes him one of the biggest scumbags in the series. As far as Kage go he's easily the worst parent by far.


Edited by Ace1225, 30 June 2016 - 01:01 AM.

  • Chillman likes this

I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#249 Narubi

Narubi

    Forever Dreaming

  • Blessed by Uglypuff
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,125 posts
  • LocationSitting alone in the dark, and contemplating life.

Posted 01 July 2016 - 12:41 AM


seeing as how he wasn't even the First Hokage

 

Can we say he was in truth the Hokage, just not in name during Hashirama's tenure?

 

Cause from what I recall of the flashback chapter(s) of early Konoha time. It seemed like it mostly Tobirama's way over Hashirama, in how the village went about. Not to mention that Tobirama didn't seem to do entirely or at all what he was asked of or ordered from Hashirama. I mean really, Hashirama looked like a figurehead in Hokage name only, but no real control or power. 

 

For if he really did. Then surely his desire of Madara becoming Hokage after him and making way for closer bonds between Konoha and the Uchiha, would have happened. Rather than not happening as it did, and Madara falling to the darkside an all.


Edited by Narubi, 01 July 2016 - 01:38 AM.

Show me the way to go home - I'm tired and I want to go to bed
I had a little drink about an hour ago - And it’s gone right to my head
Wherever I may roam - On land or sea or foam
You can always hear me singing this song
Show me the way to go home.

#250 waleuska

waleuska

    Pirate

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,863 posts
  • Locationeverywhere but nowhere

Posted 01 July 2016 - 02:15 AM

Can we say he was in truth the Hokage, just not in name during Hashirama's tenure?

 

Cause from what I recall of the flashback chapter(s) of early Konoha time. It seemed like it mostly Tobirama's way over Hashirama, in how the village went about. Not to mention that Tobirama didn't seem to do entirely or at all what he was asked of or ordered from Hashirama. I mean really, Hashirama looked like a figurehead in Hokage name only, but no real control or power. 

 

For if he really did. Then surely his desire of Madara becoming Hokage after him and making way for closer bonds between Konoha and the Uchiha, would have happened. Rather than not happening as it did, and Madara falling to the darkside an all.

I do not think the second would have had a problem with that. The reason that Hashirama and madra fought is because everyone pick hashirama over madara IIRC.

 

Anyway i think it is people should blame the third. Itachi should have been the 5 hokage. 2 or three years after the fourths death itachi should have been made into the hokage or been training to become the new hokage. It shouldn't been a secret.


p5Y5w8P.jpg


#251 Ace1225

Ace1225

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,820 posts

Posted 01 July 2016 - 06:44 AM

Can we say he was in truth the Hokage, just not in name during Hashirama's tenure?

 

Cause from what I recall of the flashback chapter(s) of early Konoha time. It seemed like it mostly Tobirama's way over Hashirama, in how the village went about. Not to mention that Tobirama didn't seem to do entirely or at all what he was asked of or ordered from Hashirama. I mean really, Hashirama looked like a figurehead in Hokage name only, but no real control or power. 

 

For if he really did. Then surely his desire of Madara becoming Hokage after him and making way for closer bonds between Konoha and the Uchiha, would have happened. Rather than not happening as it did, and Madara falling to the darkside an all.

I don't think so, primarily because of 2 scenes:

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Both of these scenes make it clear that Hashirama is quite simply stronger than his younger brother and has the ability to shut him up anytime he wants to, which makes any event where he sulks because his brother is yelling at him not that dissimilar to instances where Naruto allows Sakura to yell at him, even though he's massively more powerful than her. Really just comes off more as humoring the other person to me. Furthermore there's the Bijuu to consider. We saw in a flashback that Hashirama simply wanted to give them away to other villages, while Tobirama didn't agree with this. Historically however, we already know that it's Hashirama's way that won out in the end and that he indeed passed all of the Bijuu out among the villages. To me it comes across as Hashirama being the Hokage, but Tobirama still having his ear as his right hand man/advisor. 

 

Madara not becoming Hokage was on Tobirama, but not because he forced it to happen. That's actually an instance where he was being democratic and Hashirama wasn't. 

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

The people had a choice and they chose Hashirama and Tobirama made good points as to why, some of which were seen in the same chain of flashbacks. Hashirama's the one who argued for peace, Madara abandoned his forces to the Senju and lost the trust of many. I'd also say that the above provides further examples of discussion between the two, which are completely serious in nature and don't have Tobirama yelling at his brother at all, but speaking to him as an adult and explaining his point of view. That again just makes him come across as a right hand man/advisor to me, instead of as the Hokage.


Edited by Ace1225, 01 July 2016 - 06:46 AM.

  • Darthwin and Chillman like this

I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#252 OP Eyes FTW

OP Eyes FTW

    Warrior

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,060 posts

Posted 02 July 2016 - 01:02 PM

I think Hashirama would have deferred to Tobirama's wisdom in a lot of cases, except when Tobirama did or suggested something that was contrary to Hashirama's ideals and principles. 


  • Chillman likes this

Over-Powered Eyes For the Win!


#253 ixSheng

ixSheng

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,059 posts

Posted 04 July 2016 - 01:31 PM

Again, that assumes there was zero racism in the village before Tobirama came along, which remains a ridiculous claim on your part.  :lolxg:  And that's not what happened with the Uchiha at all. They weren't placed on a lower level. They were given a special position that actually gave them authority over all the other clans in the village, along with their own special section of the village to live in, which really isn't any different from the Hyuuga having their own area.

 

"That is unlikely to have occurred before the ninja villages "

 

Baseless assumption being made to pass something off as a fact. Your original statement, that Tobirama invented racism and segregation in the Ninja World, is quite simply a fantastic leap to even begin making and you can't even begin to prove it.

 

Orochimaru made that statement in response to Tobirama pointing out that a coup was expected of the Uchiha, because there had been rebellious elements within their clan in the past. After Orochimaru's statement concerning Tobirama's policies, Tobirama then explained why he did what he did, pointing out that he gave them 1)a job they'd be good at and 2)a position that would allow a new Madara to be easily noticed and smacked down as soon as possible. None of this really comes off as racism due to 1)Tobirama not holding any specific hate towards the Uchiha and 2)not actually looking down on the Uchiha for baseless reasons. He instead looks at their very real history of infighting, mental instability, and betrayal in the case of Madara, while also noting their skills with the Sharingan and powerful chakra to influence the decisions he makes regarding them. Again, all of these things aren't assumptions on his part or baseless claims he is making. They are actual facts about the Uchiha Clan based on its history (And he still gives praise to the clan as well, noting the great love they are capable of holding for one another, along with the dark side to that love). If i'm teaching a student who comes from a family where the majority of the members have a heart disease or lets say Schizophrenia and I take precautions to prepare for either one i'm not being racist. I'm being cautious. In Tobirama's case to even begin citing him as a racist you'd have to assume/prove that he specifically wanted the outcomes that Orochimaru claimed happened, such as ostracization, which there is no evidence of. Otherwise you're just making another claim that can't be proven.

 

Tobirama isn't any less guilty of allowing the Hyuuga to enslave their own than any of the other Hokage. You specifically cited Tobirama however and ignored the opportunity to mention the others, which comes across as blaming him and not them. This makes even less sense i'd say seeing as how he wasn't even the First Hokage and this is something that he simply inherited, whereas the other things at least involve practices that are specific to him alone.


 

Definitely a prime example of a bad parent. Really the fact that he caused the entire problem and then attempted to kill Gaara for it makes him one of the biggest scumbags in the series. As far as Kage go he's easily the worst parent by far.

What....? Since when did the Uchiha have authority over all other clans? They weren't all police force and as police they are only enforcing the laws that trickle down from the top.. I feel as though many people misunderstand what police authority is.. It's authority via proxy, they aren't the absolute authority they act based on the actual authority.. All they were there to do as police is enforce laws that were created by other entities. So in an objective sense saying they had authority over all the clans is an actual leap.. Yeah they were given their own special section that was pretty much a ghetto and isolated from everyone else.. Was it every stated that the Hyuuga had an isolated area as well? I don't recall. There's a reason Orochimaru called him out on it and once Hashi heard about it was displeased to hear of such a thing.. Idk why you're trying to defend it.. His actions are the literal definition of racism.. 

 

I wouldn't say the guy "invented" racism but he sure as hell did display it. Prior to Konoha (the first mixed clan village) any sort of none inclusive behavior would have just bee discrimination as far as we know. We have never seen another person make a claim such as Tobirama in stating that another clan is inherently evil blah blah blah.. In fact most others when they find out a shinobi is from a specific clan they reiterate the boastful talking points they've overheard elsewhere or experienced first hand..

 

Tobirama holds no hate towards the Uchiha? I don't think we are reading the same story.. Wait are you saying when he labeled the entire clan evil yada yada that he wasn't hating on them for baseless reasons? His entire rant about the Uchiha reaks of prejudice/racism.. There's a reason Hashi literally says he has had to tell him numerous times not to persecute the Uchiha.. As someone who lives in a western society even you should be able to realize a crappy excuse a racist is using to justify poor actions.. IMO I believe Kishi purposely wrote this scene to mirror controversial issues that we face in our world as well.. In a world that is growing more PC, racists have to find sly ways of acting out in order to not have negative backlash.. As the Hokage, Tobirama did just that for obvious reasons.. He couldn't help himself because he held all the cards and even had a crappy excuse to attempt to justify his behavior.. "I'm not racist, my best friend is a minority". 

 

Really? He looks at their very real history? Every single clan has a disgusting history, perhaps not in the same way but disgusting none-the-less.. That's the entire point of why Hashi and Madara were dreaming of a better world.. That's the entire reason Madara was trying to create a Utopia.. Listing the Madara "betrayal" is a moot point, he's one person and to be honest cannot be said in an objective sense.. It's like OP Eyes FTW (sorry bro had to use you because of that group PM awhile back) found some hot chick and they start dating for awhile, they are Facebook official and everything, then suddenly she still DM-ing dudes left and right but she says "Don't worry baby they're just friends", meanwhile he's hella jealous cause she's complimenting other guys that are "just friends" and hanging out with them more than him, If OP Eyes FTW decided to dump her and found a rebound did he just betray her? I think it depends on who you ask as there are many answers to it BUT it is important in Madara's case to understand why he did what he did.. He did not see the current system working in favor of his people and sought out the only way he knew how to fix it.. Also in his defense he seemed to want a better world for everyone(hence his Utopian idea) not just his clan but if a better world meant his clan got the butt of the stick he didn't feel that was right(this is the difference between Tobirama and Madara). Tobirama pretty much says "meh if they kill themselves off for the sake of the village it's whatever".. Any decent leader(especially one responsible for the lives of his people) would aim to prevent such a thing as they are part of "the village".. Everyone likes to talk about Tobirama as if he's so rational and pragmatic but fails to see he gets caught with his pants down in this aspect of things.. Even more so since clearly his line of actions lead to a complete failure anyhow.. Even with the Uchiha's "very real past" they never fully wiped themselves out and now because they wanted to be treated better they have been.

 

It's even more interesting how Tobirama says "Almost all of the ones who experience strong feelings turn evil".. He died young as hell and he wouldn't have been able to experience enough Uchiha's doing anything of the sort.. People knew of Madara sympathizers however none of them actually came out and did anything IIRC.. From the accounts of the villages origins the vast majority ostracized Madara, his sympathizers, and promoted making the joint village work. So just because you have a very tiny minority of sympathizers doesn't make it ok to exaggerate and make it seem like they are all crazy and ticking time bombs that can't be made to live within a peaceful society.  Also if you by any chance remember the chapter that explained the Uchiha's killing each other for Izanagi/power, could you link me that? I can't remember the exact wording but I have a feeling that can be used against him although there's plenty already.. 

 

He wasn't praising them when speaking about the love he was saying it in the sense that "too much of a good thing is a bad thing". He also took shots at them by calling them a sensitive bunch.. Your teaching of a student with heart disease or schizophrenia is awful and makes no sense.. A better example would be like you hiring two workers and one turns out to be Asian and make him your cashier because "oh Asians are good at math" and one turns out to be Black so you make him your labor lifter because "oh Black people are athletic" that sure as hell isn't being cautious, it's flat out prejudicial and racist.. Especially when it could easily be the other way around.. Being cautious and just, warrants you judge each person on an individual basis.. There is evidence within the manga to show not all Uchiha fall prey to those things and I'm damn sure there's evidence of Senju being crappy people too. It's just amusing how with Tobirama he generalizes in certain area's and in others uses words like "can" and "almost" which shows he is very much aware of what he's doing but ultimately doesn't care.

 

Also I believe the reason he sited Tobirama with the Hyuuga thing and what makes him different than the other Hokage's is he actually took action in trying to do something about a specific clan within the village that he felt had had dangerous practices and was inherently evil despite evidence displaying otherwise.. If Tobirama chose to single out the Uchiha in that regard why not look at all the others as well? Every other Hokage as far as we know was ok with the Uchiha and even greatly trusted some of them.. He is the only one who actively speaks out against them and singled them out for a specific action, every other Hokage just dealt with the village as a whole up until Saru had to give the order for their slaughter and even then we are shown that he would have chosen otherwise given a feasible option. Basically Tobirama gets the USA treatment.. What I mean by the USA treatment is, that many countries do messed up things in our world but the USA gets criticized the most for certain things because of how they advertise themselves.. "Land of the Free", "Democracy", "All inclusive", etc.. So when you see acts that go against that it sticks out more.. In Tobirama's case he was able to take action on an isolated incident(his Uchiha prejudice) so it sticks out more for him for why he didn't do anything about another particular incident(Hyuuga's) which at the current time was evidently worse than anything the Uchiha's were currently doing.

 

EDIT: One last thing I want to add because I forgot to put it and too lazy to find out where it was supposed to be but.. When talking about dealing with the village as a whole vs singling out a specific clan, I mean something along the lines of federal vs state in the USA. It would be like the Federal gov doing something to FL because of some incident(s) in the past and is no longer currently going on but allowing NY to get away with something horrible in the present time..


Edited by ixSheng, 05 July 2016 - 01:38 PM.

  • Five-Tailed-Fenrir likes this

Don't let anything anyone posts distract you from the fact that Krillin was the first of U7 to get knocked out in the ToP :laugh:


#254 Ace1225

Ace1225

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,820 posts

Posted 04 July 2016 - 05:20 PM

@ixSheng By authority over other clans I meant the same type of authority that police in our world have over average citizens, which is to enforce the laws of the land and ensure that citizens follow those laws, with them being empowered to take various actions against citizens when it comes to doing this job, such as questioning, detaining, arressting, imprisoning, etc. 

 

A ghetto is an isolated area of a city/area, most often a slum, hence the negative connotations associated with the word. The land the Uchiha lived on was most certainly not a slum. Only part that then applies is the isolation and i'm really not sure how severe that actually was, since they were clearly still a part of the village. Sasuke's able to walk home to the compound from school as a kid and to and from it later in the series as well. I'm pretty sure that there's also a flashback where Naruto is just walking and spots Sasuke there. At the least the Hyuuga have their own compound that they live in. Not sure how large the area itself is. Could also mention that Shikamaru specifically tells Hidan that the Nara Clan has its own land as well.

 

Actually Tobirama specifically says that the Uchiha are a clan that has a cursed destiny and that they are possessed by evil, not that the members themselves are born evil. He then goes on to explain his reasoning for stating this, being the clan's long history of instability and murdering one another.

 

No I don't believe we've been reading the same story at all. The Uchiha Clan, dating back to Hagoromo's Older Son, have a history of attacking one another for power. This history is as long as the entire history of Shinobi. This is a fact. Furthermore, they have a history of betrayal, with Madara Uchiha probably being the most prominent. This is also a fact and Tobirama specifically cites Madara as an example, noting that he wished to ensure that another Madara wouldn't rise up. So how then are his reasons baseless exactly? Again, if a child comes from a family with a history of mental illness it isn't baseless or prejudiced to watch out for that same illness to pop up in the child. It's being cautious, because that child's familial history makes it clear that he/she is more likely to develop that illness than the average person. In the same way, the Uchiha, as a family that has repeated the same actions again and again, are prone to continue repeating these actions throughout the generations. But somehow Tobirama thinking in such a way is baseless, when the family's history says the opposite?  :lolxg: That's like saying that Naruto, as an Uzumaki, isn't likely to be born with a powerful body/stamina, when his family history already says that he is. I could easily understand someone saying that Tobirama went to far with some of his actions/arguments, but to say that it was completely baseless? Wow. And honestly I don't completely accept something just because Hashirama said it. This is the same guy who wanted to place Madara as the Hokage without consulting anyone else. Guess what though? Tobirama pointed out that the people should decide and that they'd want it to be Hashirama and he was right! In the event that he hadn't spoken up Hashirama then would've just been ignoring the desires of the people for what he personally wanted. But I guess that because it's Tobirama talking about an Uchiha that he must've just been racist in that situation  :rolleyes: Prejudice is specifically based on having an idea about a person, or people, that isn't based on solid reasoning or experience. Tobirama has both in this case, even delving into biology to explain how part of it is due to the chemical changes that take place within the brains of the family members at certain points in their lives.

 

"Every single clan has a disgusting history"

 

What's the "disgusting" history of the Senju? The Uzumaki? The Nara? Akimichi? Inuzuka? Aburame? Sarutobi? Don't worry, i'll wait.  :mellow: Only clans I can think of with a "disgusting" history are the Uchiha, Hyuuga, and the Kaguya. Unless we're going to throw fighting other people into the category of "disgusting", in which case i'd agree, since every clan we've seen has been involved in some type of fighting, since they are all ninja clans. That's a good deal different than what the Uchiha and Hyuuga Clans do to one another however. 

 

The Uchiha were wiped out because they were attempting to overthrow the rest of the village  :lolxg: The hell are you talking about? Madara also did not go about his actions in the correct way, which he admits at the end of his second life. As i've pointed out before, all Madara did by turning on the village was make himself an outcast and give everyone a justified reason to fear him and his legacy. Furthermore, he caused a self-fulfilling prophecy. Hashirama wanted him to stay in the Konoha, work with the village, and earn the love and respect of the people. Madara wasn't going for it, as he didn't believe it would work and was 100% certain that Tobirama would become the Nidaime and that his clan would be cast aside. Guess what? With his terrible actions against the village there was no one else accept Tobirama to be named as Nidaime. He is a direct cause of the very thing he didn't want. The Uchiha never wiped themselves out in the past because they were fighting amongst themselves. They were wiped out leading into the present because they attempted to attack a larger force, the entire village of Konoha. Also, the fact that the clan never wiped themselves out doesn't erase their history of infighting, murder, and betrayal. So let's not act for a second as if it does.

 

It's even more interesting how Tobirama says "Almost all of the ones who experience strong feelings turn evil".. He died young as hell and he wouldn't have been able to experience enough Uchiha's doing anything of the sort..

I've never seen an exact age given for either Hashirama or Tobirama to say they died young as hell. Naturally, they didn't live to be as old as Madara, but i'd say they were at least in their 30s when they passed away. Hell, Hashirama was a grandfather when he passed which seems to have been before Tobirama. So I wouldn't say they were young as hell exactly. But going into that I don't see a point in attempting to say that Tobirama absolutely could not have possibly experienced something when we never saw it. Seems like a stretch to say. Also, saying that none of Madara's sympathizers never did anything over the years falls into the same category of being a stretch. We quite simply do not know everything about the reigns of any of the Hokage. It's fully possible that the were minor conflicts/rebellions from the Uchiha that just weren't as important as the attempted coup that ended in the clan massacre. Also, Tobirama never said all Uchiha were crazy :lolxg: You literally quoted the piece where his words only indicate a portion, as he says "almost all". That certainly means a good number, but that isn't him then saying all of them. And when did he ever imply they couldn't live in a peaceful society? Seems like if he thought that he would've just had them wiped out himself. Instead, he still had them living in the village.  Finally, the Uchiha Clan's sordid history isn't just argued by Tobirama. Both Obito and Itachi fully admit to it as well so the history is, again, a very real thing.

 

Not sure which chapter you're talking about in regards to Izanagi. Do you mean when it was introduced via Danzo or when Itachi was talking about Izanami?

 

I think it says more about you than anything else that you see being called sensitive as "taking shots". His exact words are:

 

there are many sensitive people among the Uchiha

 

Have to be honest and say that I don't see how that can be taken in a negative light at all. I'd also say that his opening statement

 

No other clan treasured love as much as the Uchiha

 

also doesn't come off as negative. Certainly, it does delve into having too much of a good thing. That however doesn't change the good thing aspect of what he's saying, which is that they are a family filled with love and that the dark side of that is that when the love is lost it can lead to something negative. You said that you believe Kishi was using Tobirama as a reference to events in our world, I see the Uchiha's relation to love thing operating in the same way. Some of the most terrible actions can be justified by losing a loved one. Madara, Sasuke, and Obito all do what they do partially based on lost love. This is just a fact. However, it doesn't suddenly make the fact that they loved someone a bad thing or something they should be looked down on for. Madara loving Izuna so much is great and humanizes him. Same applies to Sasuke and his love for his parents/clan and Itachi. I'd even say the same for Obito. Now their reactions to that love may have been off the wall crazy, but the love itself is still a good thing. I'd say the heart disease/schizophrenia example makes perfect sense, because those are real traits that can actually run in a family, just as the Uchiha's history of hatred has run in theirs. The math thing is more general and more of a stereotype than anything else, whereas the Uchiha actually have the history that they do, just as many families actually have health conditions that continually pop up in such a way.

 

There is evidence within the manga to show not all Uchiha fall prey to those things and I'm damn sure there's evidence of Senju being crappy people too.

 

Which Tobirama fully admits and is probably why he didn't just wipe the clan out. Only evidence I can think of of a Senju being a crappy person would be Hashirama and Tobirama's father and i'm not sure he'd apply. He was at war with the Uchiha and therefore didn't like them, and wanted to kill them. Tobirama generalizes and then explains in further detail which makes it clear which populations he's referring to. Honestly, people do this exact same thing on a regular basis. If I were to provide a common example the first thing that pops to mind is when a girl/woman says something along the lines of 

 

men are cheaters

 

Actually question her about it in the same way that Tobirama was questioned however and I guarantee she'll change what she's saying to be more specific regarding specific groups/types of men. I see the same thing in regards to different fanbases. Making generalizations is fairly common overall and is probably a habit people should break, but I don't consider it to be hiding anything or to indicate some type of deep awareness. Rather, i'd say it's just something people do because they don't enjoy being specific all the time. Just another example would be if I said 

 

the Chicago Bulls suck

 

Question me on it and the converstaion would lead, based on simple stats, to me admitting that not every single member sucks, but that some do indeed suck, which are the ones I was referring to. Not every single Uchiha killed a family member or was overwhelmed with a lust for power, but some definitely did and were.

 

Tobirama singled the Uchiha out for multiple actions actually and regardless this does not change the fact that the Hyuuga issue is generational, not solely falling on Tobirama's shoulders, which was my point. Even taking his precautions concerning the Uchiha into account that doesn't justify the impication that he was the only one who allowed the Hyuuga issue to pass. Furthermore, i'd say that the Hyuuga issue is completely different from the Uchiha one. Not to say that it's ok, but dealing with that would have involved actually interferring with the practices (not necessarily religous, but perhaps political or traditional) of a clan. We've never seen any of the Hokages do such a thing. Obviously I don't know if there are laws against doing so or how that works, but it's again another matter entirely. There's also the fact that giving a clan land and a position as the police in a village fall more into the category of rewarding them than anything else, whereas going to the Hyuuga and forcing them to stop their enslavement process is more of a punishment type deal. Definitely still see it as a problem that should have been confronted, but just based on the actions that we actually see the various Hokage take during the course of the series if something didn't directly affect the state of the village it wasn't their issue. 

 

EDIT: Also this has long since gotten out of hand, so i'm going to stop here because now we're just clogging up the thread.


Edited by Ace1225, 04 July 2016 - 05:26 PM.

I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#255 Tenno

Tenno

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,584 posts

Posted 04 July 2016 - 05:23 PM

Who is excited for the next chapter of BOREMTOO THE LEGENDARY RECAP


  • waleuska, Ace1225, ixSheng and 1 other like this

"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" -Corrax Entry 7:17


#256 Darthwin

Darthwin

    Sardine

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,197 posts
  • LocationThe Void

Posted 04 July 2016 - 08:35 PM

The only thing creepy about that Aburame clan that comes to mind is the whole body filled with insects thing, but they do it to themselves so it could be so much worse. 



a23e6eac-0bb9-4711-9838-7b39c5f0527e_zps


#257 Narubi

Narubi

    Forever Dreaming

  • Blessed by Uglypuff
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,125 posts
  • LocationSitting alone in the dark, and contemplating life.

Posted 04 July 2016 - 08:53 PM


The only thing creepy about that Aburame clan that comes to mind is the whole body filled with insects thing

 

Gotta agree with that. It is somewhat disturbing.


Edited by Narubi, 05 July 2016 - 12:41 AM.

Show me the way to go home - I'm tired and I want to go to bed
I had a little drink about an hour ago - And it’s gone right to my head
Wherever I may roam - On land or sea or foam
You can always hear me singing this song
Show me the way to go home.

#258 ixSheng

ixSheng

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,059 posts

Posted 05 July 2016 - 01:31 PM

@Ace1225

 

Spoiler
 
tldr: Meh if you're done, you're done I can't make you reply but I disagree. IMO Tobirama was still tainted by his history of fighting and since the Uchiha were the forefront of who he was fighting against and who he had learned his clan had been warring against for centuries, to me it's understandable he grew into a bigot/racist. 

Edited by ixSheng, 05 July 2016 - 01:36 PM.

  • Five-Tailed-Fenrir likes this

Don't let anything anyone posts distract you from the fact that Krillin was the first of U7 to get knocked out in the ToP :laugh:


#259 Ace1225

Ace1225

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,820 posts

Posted 05 July 2016 - 11:52 PM

I'd also find it to be justified for him to have become racist towards the Uchiha. I simply don't believe he was.

 

 

The only thing creepy about that Aburame clan that comes to mind is the whole body filled with insects thing, but they do it to themselves so it could be so much worse. 

Yep. It's creepy to us, but it doesn't seem to cause any harm to the members of the clan itself, making it more of a strange tradition and very different from enslavement.

 

EDIT: So who is everyone's favorite Hokage and why? Despite the main story being over, with us having seen something of the 5 main Hokage, I don't think we've ever really discussed this.


Edited by Ace1225, 06 July 2016 - 09:13 AM.

I can't force you to believe me that's your choice. People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" and "true?" Merely vague concepts...their reality may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?-Itachi Uchiha


#260 Narubi

Narubi

    Forever Dreaming

  • Blessed by Uglypuff
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,125 posts
  • LocationSitting alone in the dark, and contemplating life.

Posted 06 July 2016 - 01:36 PM


So who is everyone's favorite Hokage and why?

 

We never saw much from Kakashi. So I can't really say what kind of political leader he was. 

 

So the best IMO were Hiruzen and Tsunade. But out of the two, I'd go with Hiruzen.

 

He seemed rather reasonable and balanced with the job (no prejaduce towards anyone or clan, and didn't have his head up in the clouds), and didn't seem to bend over for anyone in particular (which is one reason why he beats out Tsunade, since Tsunade did bend over for Naruto's needs and wants). Only faulting to him (that I recall) would be the issues with Danzo and the Elders. But that's something Tsunade also had issue with. Course though with Hiruzen his issues resulted in the genocide of an entire Clan, where as with Tsunade it just lead to distrust and loathing. So that is a minus to Hiruzen. lol

 

On another note, while I like the possibilities of Medical Ninjutsu (as seen briefly during the Kabuto vs. Tsunade battle), it just didn't go anywhere's beyond that. An what Tsunade does is nice, it's just that that seems to be all she does and relies on rather than do anything else to fight her opponents. Where as Hiruzen is rather versatile in his fighting capabilities. Which can make him efficient for almost any sort of battle that requires more than singular means of attacking and defending.


Edited by Narubi, 06 July 2016 - 01:50 PM.

Show me the way to go home - I'm tired and I want to go to bed
I had a little drink about an hour ago - And it’s gone right to my head
Wherever I may roam - On land or sea or foam
You can always hear me singing this song
Show me the way to go home.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users