@ixSheng By authority over other clans I meant the same type of authority that police in our world have over average citizens, which is to enforce the laws of the land and ensure that citizens follow those laws, with them being empowered to take various actions against citizens when it comes to doing this job, such as questioning, detaining, arressting, imprisoning, etc.
A ghetto is an isolated area of a city/area, most often a slum, hence the negative connotations associated with the word. The land the Uchiha lived on was most certainly not a slum. Only part that then applies is the isolation and i'm really not sure how severe that actually was, since they were clearly still a part of the village. Sasuke's able to walk home to the compound from school as a kid and to and from it later in the series as well. I'm pretty sure that there's also a flashback where Naruto is just walking and spots Sasuke there. At the least the Hyuuga have their own compound that they live in. Not sure how large the area itself is. Could also mention that Shikamaru specifically tells Hidan that the Nara Clan has its own land as well.
Actually Tobirama specifically says that the Uchiha are a clan that has a cursed destiny and that they are possessed by evil, not that the members themselves are born evil. He then goes on to explain his reasoning for stating this, being the clan's long history of instability and murdering one another.
No I don't believe we've been reading the same story at all. The Uchiha Clan, dating back to Hagoromo's Older Son, have a history of attacking one another for power. This history is as long as the entire history of Shinobi. This is a fact. Furthermore, they have a history of betrayal, with Madara Uchiha probably being the most prominent. This is also a fact and Tobirama specifically cites Madara as an example, noting that he wished to ensure that another Madara wouldn't rise up. So how then are his reasons baseless exactly? Again, if a child comes from a family with a history of mental illness it isn't baseless or prejudiced to watch out for that same illness to pop up in the child. It's being cautious, because that child's familial history makes it clear that he/she is more likely to develop that illness than the average person. In the same way, the Uchiha, as a family that has repeated the same actions again and again, are prone to continue repeating these actions throughout the generations. But somehow Tobirama thinking in such a way is baseless, when the family's history says the opposite? That's like saying that Naruto, as an Uzumaki, isn't likely to be born with a powerful body/stamina, when his family history already says that he is. I could easily understand someone saying that Tobirama went to far with some of his actions/arguments, but to say that it was completely baseless? Wow. And honestly I don't completely accept something just because Hashirama said it. This is the same guy who wanted to place Madara as the Hokage without consulting anyone else. Guess what though? Tobirama pointed out that the people should decide and that they'd want it to be Hashirama and he was right! In the event that he hadn't spoken up Hashirama then would've just been ignoring the desires of the people for what he personally wanted. But I guess that because it's Tobirama talking about an Uchiha that he must've just been racist in that situation Prejudice is specifically based on having an idea about a person, or people, that isn't based on solid reasoning or experience. Tobirama has both in this case, even delving into biology to explain how part of it is due to the chemical changes that take place within the brains of the family members at certain points in their lives.
"Every single clan has a disgusting history"
What's the "disgusting" history of the Senju? The Uzumaki? The Nara? Akimichi? Inuzuka? Aburame? Sarutobi? Don't worry, i'll wait. Only clans I can think of with a "disgusting" history are the Uchiha, Hyuuga, and the Kaguya. Unless we're going to throw fighting other people into the category of "disgusting", in which case i'd agree, since every clan we've seen has been involved in some type of fighting, since they are all ninja clans. That's a good deal different than what the Uchiha and Hyuuga Clans do to one another however.
The Uchiha were wiped out because they were attempting to overthrow the rest of the village The hell are you talking about? Madara also did not go about his actions in the correct way, which he admits at the end of his second life. As i've pointed out before, all Madara did by turning on the village was make himself an outcast and give everyone a justified reason to fear him and his legacy. Furthermore, he caused a self-fulfilling prophecy. Hashirama wanted him to stay in the Konoha, work with the village, and earn the love and respect of the people. Madara wasn't going for it, as he didn't believe it would work and was 100% certain that Tobirama would become the Nidaime and that his clan would be cast aside. Guess what? With his terrible actions against the village there was no one else accept Tobirama to be named as Nidaime. He is a direct cause of the very thing he didn't want. The Uchiha never wiped themselves out in the past because they were fighting amongst themselves. They were wiped out leading into the present because they attempted to attack a larger force, the entire village of Konoha. Also, the fact that the clan never wiped themselves out doesn't erase their history of infighting, murder, and betrayal. So let's not act for a second as if it does.
It's even more interesting how Tobirama says "Almost all of the ones who experience strong feelings turn evil".. He died young as hell and he wouldn't have been able to experience enough Uchiha's doing anything of the sort..
I've never seen an exact age given for either Hashirama or Tobirama to say they died young as hell. Naturally, they didn't live to be as old as Madara, but i'd say they were at least in their 30s when they passed away. Hell, Hashirama was a grandfather when he passed which seems to have been before Tobirama. So I wouldn't say they were young as hell exactly. But going into that I don't see a point in attempting to say that Tobirama absolutely could not have possibly experienced something when we never saw it. Seems like a stretch to say. Also, saying that none of Madara's sympathizers never did anything over the years falls into the same category of being a stretch. We quite simply do not know everything about the reigns of any of the Hokage. It's fully possible that the were minor conflicts/rebellions from the Uchiha that just weren't as important as the attempted coup that ended in the clan massacre. Also, Tobirama never said all Uchiha were crazy You literally quoted the piece where his words only indicate a portion, as he says "almost all". That certainly means a good number, but that isn't him then saying all of them. And when did he ever imply they couldn't live in a peaceful society? Seems like if he thought that he would've just had them wiped out himself. Instead, he still had them living in the village. Finally, the Uchiha Clan's sordid history isn't just argued by Tobirama. Both Obito and Itachi fully admit to it as well so the history is, again, a very real thing.
Not sure which chapter you're talking about in regards to Izanagi. Do you mean when it was introduced via Danzo or when Itachi was talking about Izanami?
I think it says more about you than anything else that you see being called sensitive as "taking shots". His exact words are:
there are many sensitive people among the Uchiha
Have to be honest and say that I don't see how that can be taken in a negative light at all. I'd also say that his opening statement
No other clan treasured love as much as the Uchiha
also doesn't come off as negative. Certainly, it does delve into having too much of a good thing. That however doesn't change the good thing aspect of what he's saying, which is that they are a family filled with love and that the dark side of that is that when the love is lost it can lead to something negative. You said that you believe Kishi was using Tobirama as a reference to events in our world, I see the Uchiha's relation to love thing operating in the same way. Some of the most terrible actions can be justified by losing a loved one. Madara, Sasuke, and Obito all do what they do partially based on lost love. This is just a fact. However, it doesn't suddenly make the fact that they loved someone a bad thing or something they should be looked down on for. Madara loving Izuna so much is great and humanizes him. Same applies to Sasuke and his love for his parents/clan and Itachi. I'd even say the same for Obito. Now their reactions to that love may have been off the wall crazy, but the love itself is still a good thing. I'd say the heart disease/schizophrenia example makes perfect sense, because those are real traits that can actually run in a family, just as the Uchiha's history of hatred has run in theirs. The math thing is more general and more of a stereotype than anything else, whereas the Uchiha actually have the history that they do, just as many families actually have health conditions that continually pop up in such a way.
There is evidence within the manga to show not all Uchiha fall prey to those things and I'm damn sure there's evidence of Senju being crappy people too.
Which Tobirama fully admits and is probably why he didn't just wipe the clan out. Only evidence I can think of of a Senju being a crappy person would be Hashirama and Tobirama's father and i'm not sure he'd apply. He was at war with the Uchiha and therefore didn't like them, and wanted to kill them. Tobirama generalizes and then explains in further detail which makes it clear which populations he's referring to. Honestly, people do this exact same thing on a regular basis. If I were to provide a common example the first thing that pops to mind is when a girl/woman says something along the lines of
men are cheaters
Actually question her about it in the same way that Tobirama was questioned however and I guarantee she'll change what she's saying to be more specific regarding specific groups/types of men. I see the same thing in regards to different fanbases. Making generalizations is fairly common overall and is probably a habit people should break, but I don't consider it to be hiding anything or to indicate some type of deep awareness. Rather, i'd say it's just something people do because they don't enjoy being specific all the time. Just another example would be if I said
the Chicago Bulls suck
Question me on it and the converstaion would lead, based on simple stats, to me admitting that not every single member sucks, but that some do indeed suck, which are the ones I was referring to. Not every single Uchiha killed a family member or was overwhelmed with a lust for power, but some definitely did and were.
Tobirama singled the Uchiha out for multiple actions actually and regardless this does not change the fact that the Hyuuga issue is generational, not solely falling on Tobirama's shoulders, which was my point. Even taking his precautions concerning the Uchiha into account that doesn't justify the impication that he was the only one who allowed the Hyuuga issue to pass. Furthermore, i'd say that the Hyuuga issue is completely different from the Uchiha one. Not to say that it's ok, but dealing with that would have involved actually interferring with the practices (not necessarily religous, but perhaps political or traditional) of a clan. We've never seen any of the Hokages do such a thing. Obviously I don't know if there are laws against doing so or how that works, but it's again another matter entirely. There's also the fact that giving a clan land and a position as the police in a village fall more into the category of rewarding them than anything else, whereas going to the Hyuuga and forcing them to stop their enslavement process is more of a punishment type deal. Definitely still see it as a problem that should have been confronted, but just based on the actions that we actually see the various Hokage take during the course of the series if something didn't directly affect the state of the village it wasn't their issue.
EDIT: Also this has long since gotten out of hand, so i'm going to stop here because now we're just clogging up the thread.
Edited by Ace1225, 04 July 2016 - 05:26 PM.