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[Miscellaneous] Philosophy and Concepts


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#1 Episteme

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 05:26 AM

aeHCvtd.png

 

 

Welcome one and all to this all-new DEW approved thread.

 

The main purpose of this thread is to i) provide a home for more philosophically oriented analyses and ii) to promote more critical and rationally inclined discussions. Feel free to post any and all:

  • Analyses that predominantly reference philosophers and their ideas / works
  • Discussions pertaining to something philosophical a character may have said, as well as events with philosophical implications (eg. Mayuri’s speech on ‘perfection’; Ichigo and Aizen evolving to a ‘transcendental’ state)
  • Discussions on noteworthy concepts, such as ‘desire’, ‘justice’, ‘pride’, ‘evil’ etc.
  • Analyses and discussions that focus on issues typically deliberated upon in the fields of metaphysics, ethics, aesthetics, and epistemology

 

To ensure we all get as much as we can out of this thread, and to keep discussions as orderly as possible, please keep in mind the following few suggestions:

  • The principle of charity. Be charitable when considering what someone else has said, and in the case of discussions, always consider the best, strongest possible interpretation of another’s argument.
  • Whilst there is no need to cite every source of information, try to have references on hand so as to back up a claim in a discussion if need be.
  • There is no guarantee your reader will be familiar with an idea or concept you’re utilising so do try to provide clarification on those ideas. The degree at which you do so however is entirely up to you.
  • The journey towards wisdom, in whatever form it may take, is the most rewarding of endeavours. So above all else have fun!

 

 

I have an analysis ready to post that I already foresee giving me issues because of the length. Give me some time as I sort it out; hopefully it won’t take too long. 


 

This analysis will focus on Yhwach’s “Almighty” in light of the ideas of knowledge (including omniscience) and (pre)determinism. Consideration will also be given to The Five War Powers, Haschwalth, Uryuu and the Soul King in the context of this discussion. Further, given a conceptual overlap, Orihime’s “Souten Kisshun” will be considered with regards to events in their metaphysical sense. Related concepts that will appear at various points throughout include that of God, necessity and contingency, undecidability, induction, causation, morality, and free will.

 

To note: I’ve added links to chapters and the events being discussed, just to clarify what exactly I am referring to and to help with referencing / finding things. Also the quotes mentioned may differ to those on the linked page as I’m taking into account various translations (and MangaStream’s archive decided to die amidst writing this, leading to the use of a few different scanlations from alternative sources; let me know if I’ve missed any broken links).

 

But first some preliminaries. When I started writing this back in September last year it was meant to be no more than 5,000 – 6,000 words. It very soon escalated and became something else entirely. It didn’t help that real life kept me from committing to it entirely (even went months without so much as looking at it), hence the length of time it has taken to complete and my perpetual absence from these parts. The release of more chapters with ever more insight also meant more and more things to address. (Thankfully, thankfully ad infinitum, I’ve only had to constantly add things in as opposed to deleting anything; I would have lost my sanity if I had to do away with thousands of words.)

 

As fate would have it, two of the points I aimed to demonstrate were 1) The Almighty essentially inferring various future outcomes and 2) The Almighty compelling future events. I’m not so much annoyed to be posting this after the fact as I am with having to post an analysis that spends some time rationalising towards such conclusions (not too much, thankfully, the focus is more on the how as opposed to the what). Had I known these two facts in advanced though, I would have introduced several concepts differently. A minor peeve, but nothing truly damning as these are not the main focal points. Rather, it’s the critical examination of The Almighty’s purported omniscience and omnipotence, and a whole lot more in between.

 

As alluded to, there is quite a bit of exposition in this analysis. Whilst graduate research has made me ridiculously thorough, given the subject matter, I do feel as if a fair degree of explanation is at times necessary. These aren’t concepts that can be adequately explored and understood in a couple of sentences. And as for the length, considering I haven’t posted in just over a year, think of it as an accumulation of all the posts I never got round to making in that time.

 

With that said, I recommend brewing a cup of tea, putting on something beautiful to play in the background – like Mozart; I’m presently enjoying “Jenamy” – and take your time with it (if you do manage to read it all in a single sitting though, I applaud you).

 

 

 

1. The Almighty

 

1.1 Determinism and Free Will: An Overview

 

Spoiler

 

 

1.2 Seeing the Whole

 

Spoiler

 

 

1.3 Absolute Knowledge, Undecidability and the War Potentials

 

Spoiler

 

1.3 Absolute Knowledge, Undecidability and the War Potentials (Continued)

 

Spoiler

 

 

1.3.1 The Wisest of the Wise

 

Spoiler

 


 

1.4  Transcending Fate

 

Spoiler

 

 

2. Souten Kisshun

 

2.1 Event Rejection

 

Spoiler

 

 

2.2 Violating the Realm of God

 

Spoiler

 

 

3. The Gears of Destiny

 

3.1 Triumph of the Will

 

Spoiler

 

 

So I hope that proved somewhat insightful. As always, thoughts and queries are welcome. Also I might add in a summary of the main points sometime in the next few days.

 

I have a prospective journal article that I need to finish before October, so that’s what most of my available time will be spent on henceforth. The other Plato-oriented analysis I’ve been working on will likely have to wait till after that, though I will see if I can break it up and post it in smallish sections. That said, I will try to post titbits of things here and there and respond to other discussions in this thread if I’m not bogged down entirely by real life. :3


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#2 Fulmine

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 07:12 AM

Ooh, one more justifiable reason to postpone reading university course's material...(as if my procrastinating self doesn't have enough reasons already LOL)

 

 

And how coincidental! I just started reading a Huayan book recently since I found out one of my favorite wuxia novels borrows quite some amount from the school. The work is ''The Golden Lion'' (in my language btw and I wonder if I can find the English trans...), which I think can have something to do with Zanpakutou but I'm not sure cause just read 1/3 of it. Didn't think I would see someone connecting that with Bleach this soon but then that's Episteme for you...


Edited by Fulmine, 21 June 2016 - 07:15 AM.

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#3 Fulmine

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 11:38 AM


(a more comprehensive account of this can be found in my analysis of 564, which I would link to if I were able to find it).

The one you talked about Nishida Kitarou?


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#4 DarkNemesis

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 01:59 PM


(a more comprehensive account of this can be found in my analysis of 564, which I would link to if I were able to find it).

 

@Episteme - Link to discussion thread: http://onemangaforum...564-discussion/

 

Look for the Archives tab at the top of the home page.

 

Now to find the time to read this....


Edited by DarkNemesis, 21 June 2016 - 01:59 PM.

Kubo's announcement will be his new work will be called Tide; not as strong as bleach but does its trolling in a more colorful fashion! - arcane_chaos

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#5 Episteme

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 09:06 AM

Ooh, one more justifiable reason to postpone reading university course's material...(as if my procrastinating self doesn't have enough reasons already LOL)

 

 

And how coincidental! I just started reading a Huayan book recently since I found out one of my favorite wuxia novels borrows quite some amount from the school. The work is ''The Golden Lion'' (in my language btw and I wonder if I can find the English trans...), which I think can have something to do with Zanpakutou but I'm not sure cause just read 1/3 of it. Didn't think I would see someone connecting that with Bleach this soon but then that's Episteme for you...

 

Huayan loves its metaphors. There's an English translation here if that helps. :)

 

It's definitely applicable to Zanpakutou insofar as the the wielder is the blade and the blade is the wielder. As to how that would summarily relate to the 'gold' and 'lion' Fazang speaks of:

  • Gold, as the essential nature or principle, would be the wielder's soul. 
  • The lion, as the particular manifestation or form, would be the Zanpakutou. 
  • The Zanpakutou (lion) is ultimately unreal; what truly exists is the soul (gold). 
  • The soul however does not have a mark of its own, it can only be revealed through some form: the Zanpakutou.
  • Whilst one sees the Zanpakutou take form and come into existence, in actuality it is the soul alone that exists. The Zanpakutou can morph and evolve, even break, but the soul itself cannot be removed.
  • Ultimately there is nothing beyond the soul, the Zanpakutou itself owes its existence to the soul. 
  • What is most real and true is the soul.

So the Zanpakutou is merely a form of the soul, of one's inner power and potential. That power and potential can find another form, such as the individual themselves, as Ichigo very well demonstrated.

 

 

The one you talked about Nishida Kitarou?

 

That's the one. Good memory!

 

@Episteme - Link to discussion thread: http://onemangaforum...564-discussion/

 

Look for the Archives tab at the top of the home page.

 

Now to find the time to read this....

 

Thanks. :3

 

I checked there; didn't find it. I think some pages went missing when it was archived (I remember there were more than 20), and my post was on one of them. :(

 

I'll see if I still have it saved and post it in here.


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#6 Fulmine

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 09:19 AM


That's the one. Good memory!

I have it saved in my computer. Want me to post it?

 

 


Huayan loves its metaphors. There's an English translation here if that helps. :)



It's definitely applicable to Zanpakutou insofar as the the wielder is the blade and the blade is the wielder. As to how that would summarily relate to the 'gold' and 'lion' Fazang speaks of:

Gold, as the essential nature or principle, would be the wielder's soul.
The lion, as the particular manifestation or form, would be the Zanpakutou.
The Zanpakutou (lion) is ultimately unreal; what truly exists is the soul (gold).
The soul however does not have a mark of its own, it can only be revealed through some form: the Zanpakutou.
Whilst one sees the Zanpakutou take form and come into existence, in actuality it is the soul alone that exists. The Zanpakutou can morph and evolve, even break, but the soul itself cannot be removed.
Ultimately there is nothing beyond the soul, the Zanpakutou itself owes its existence to the soul.
What is most real and true is the soul.

So the Zanpakutou is merely a form of the soul, of one's inner power and potential. That power and potential can find another form, such as the individual themselves, as Ichigo very well demonstrated.

Yeah, that's about what I thought and related to Zanpakutou when I read The Golden Lion. Also turns out there are many English translation around on the Internet and I can see why, haha.


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#7 Episteme

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 09:25 AM

I have it saved in my computer. Want me to post it?

 

Yes please. :3



#8 Fulmine

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 09:33 AM

Yes please. :3

I copied it into a wordpad file so all the bullet and number marks disappear. You should re-modify them.

 

Spoiler


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#9 Episteme

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 02:30 AM

Finale analysis? Finale analysis. Does anyone really care at this point? Probably not. But for the sake of closure here it is, no matter how late it may be.

 

The following will focus on Aizen’s last words, Yhwach’s motive, as well as some general Bleach metaphysics, of which resonate with various interconnecting philosophical themes alluded to in both speeches. These are subjects I’ve always wanted to write about, though never got around to. That last chapter though finally gave me an ample reason to do so. Notably this analysis will explore such ideas as substance theory and theodicy, of which will be predominately explored with reference to the philosophy of Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz.

 

 

 

1. Panpsychism: All is Soul

 

Spoiler

 

 

2. Theodicy: An Answer to the Problem of Evil

 

Spoiler

 

 

3. The Best of all Possible Worlds

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Ultimately, every essay ends with Aizen apologia.

 

I regret nothing.

 

 

Happy New Year, OMF.

 


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#10 Fulmine

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 07:48 AM

I CAREEEEEEE.

 

Aizen-sama is love. Aizen-sama is life <3 <3 <3

 

Damn evil shinigami and worthless human not seeing greatness!!!

 

 

@Episteme Is part 1 of your new post the 3.2 of OP?


Edited by Fulmine, 01 January 2019 - 08:28 AM.

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#11 Episteme

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 09:45 AM

I CAREEEEEEE.

 

Aizen-sama is love. Aizen-sama is life <3 <3 <3

 

Damn evil shinigami and worthless human not seeing greatness!!!

 

 

@Episteme Is part 1 of your new post the 3.2 of OP?

 

Thank you for caring. :aww:

 

Not really. The new post is fairly self-contained, though it does overlap philosophically with what's being argued in 1.2 and 1.4 in the OP to the extent that it can have strong implications for the issues of omniscience, determinism and free will.

 

Overall Part 1 is primarily an attempt to provide an account that most closely resembles and helps explain some fundamnetal Bleach metaphysics regarding souls, as well as to explain how Tsukishima fixed Ichigo's Zanpakutou after Yhwach broke it. There was a lot of confusion at the time, so I figured I'd provide an explanation that hopefully makes sense.

 

The other two parts demonstrate how Yhwach is a pleb, and how yet again Aizen was right and did nothing wrong.


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#12 Fulmine

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 12:39 PM

Thank you for caring. :aww:

 

Not really. The new post is fairly self-contained, though it does overlap philosophically with what's being argued in 1.2 and 1.4 in the OP to the extent that it can have strong implications for the issues of omniscience, determinism and free will.

 

Overall Part 1 is primarily an attempt to provide an account that most closely resembles and helps explain some fundamnetal Bleach metaphysics regarding souls, as well as to explain how Tsukishima fixed Ichigo's Zanpakutou after Yhwach broke it. There was a lot of confusion at the time, so I figured I'd provide an explanation that hopefully makes sense.

 

The other two parts demonstrate how Yhwach is a pleb, and how yet again Aizen was right and did nothing wrong.

Mangaseeonline.us has the scan of Viz official translation so you might want to take a look if the trans change something regarding what Tsukishima said (of course, only in case your love for Aizen-sama did not make you buy the volumes already LOL).


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#13 Krizalid

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 02:38 PM

Episteme lives! 2019 started really well.

 

Maybe Milareppa will also hear the call. Fingers crossed. Maybe Bleach will make a return? Fingers crossed. I will get rich? Fingers double crossed.



#14 Revenant

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Posted 04 January 2019 - 07:14 PM

All of this makes me think that these villains were very well read in philosophy but must have skimmed over the ethics part of it. But isn't that what every charismatic psychopath does?

#15 Fulmine

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 06:14 AM

Well, if psychopath = good-willed extremist :P Let say Aizen succeeded and made a wonderful world, in his eyes probably some tens of thousands lives are worth it or maybe he can resurrect them or something. After all, from a cold-hearted perspective, death in this manga only means you get to be recycled into another world.

 

That said, considering the novel's new info and what's in the manga themselves, the shinigami are not that good. The old guys know the bad history whereas the young guys...I think only Rukia and Renji and maybe some more can fully be called innocent in all this shit.

 

Which means except for Rukia and Momo Aizen did nothing wrong. He simply gave what those shinigami deserve :hmph:.


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#16 FongShwei69

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 12:58 PM

Aizen did nothing wrong. He simply gave what those shinigami deserve :hmph:.


Kubo flat-out said Aizen was evil in two separate interviews (the first interview was shortly before the Winter War, the other was during the Lost Shinigami arc iirc).

In the first one, he said Aizen would become (quote) "more evil" in the FKT chapters. Soul Society may have been corrupt, but how anyone can try to claim Aizen was a good guy, or some sort of well intentioned extremist, baffles me. The man was a villain with a god complex, plain and simple.

#17 Fulmine

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 01:27 PM

Kubo flat-out said Aizen was evil in two separate interviews (the first interview was shortly before the Winter War, the other was during the Lost Shinigami arc iirc).

In the first one, he said Aizen would become (quote) "more evil" in the FKT chapters. Soul Society may have been corrupt, but how anyone can try to claim Aizen was a good guy, or some sort of well intentioned extremist, baffles me. The man was a villain with a god complex, plain and simple.

...Eh, you have no sense of humor :rly:

 

And the context of my post is not plain whether one did bad things or not...nor was it even confining the topic in one rigid definition of evil.

 

Finally, Kubo has no business here :shrug:. Authors indeed hold absolute power in terms of what's canon or not but they have literally zero say over how readers interpret their works.

For example, the mangaka can state definitely character X killed Y and we can't dispute with him/her that the event did not happen. But in terms of how to view this killing action? Well, I can do that myself LOL


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