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[Oben]

The Three Weeks Left Edition

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Last few posts:
 

Eight years ago Hillary was the secretary of State, not prepping for an election. She was doing her job and and chose to have one phone over two. Again, her email gaff is a bad look. And there probably is some duplicitous acts surrounding the email disappearance.

She really only began to prep 4 years ago once she left her job. As far as paid speaking engagements to wall street. You're right, it's not illegal. And as I've said, so many people before and after working in high government have done so. Romney did so prior to running for election. Giuliani makes a living do so to this day. Since when is doing that shady? Don't really understand that at all.

 
 

She still should have saw stuff coming.
 
Because of Occupy Wall Street, you are right they had no direction. But do you think those people want a candidate that was in their pocket?
 
Why did breine catch her by surprise. For 6 years the left have been mad with obama for being center right. Yet clinton wants to play that same stupid role, and acts surprise when people run away from her.

 
 

Occupy Wall Street was a shit movement and did not, should not and will not affect the decision making of Hillary or any other Democrat. Again, OW started off as something legit but quickly devolved into a mess. There was no unified theme or message. It was just a bunch of angry people, homeless people and meth heads. I lived in the midst of it. It was pathetic.

People don't run from Hilary because she as seen as Center right. They run because of her lack of personality and perceived untrustworthiness.

 
 

That is your assumption. Not fact. And even if she knew she was going to run that doesn't mean she shouldn't make any errors. Humans make mistakes and make bad decisions. Donald Trump has been prepping for several years as well and look at all the scandals he keeps falling face first into. It's often impossible to gauge how a momentary decision will be perceived 4, 5 or 10 years later.

 
 

Occupy wall street is in it name. They hate that wall street cause the recession.
 
They didn't get anything done but they didn't want some politician in their pockets They wanted people on wall street to go to jail. Listen to bernie sanders and Warren about wall street.

 
 

lets also not forget how the dnc purposfully ruined bernies chances at ever getting into the whitehouse.  i mean its not technically illegal per say it it does smell of deep fucking curruption.

 
 

Sooo...you're mad because she was paid to do a few speeches? Did she embezzle money? Ponzi scheme? Corporate fraud? No. No. No. You're mad cuz she was paid to TALK to them...

Do you understand how rediculous that sounds? She shouldn't talk to them all in the name of a meaningless (and mostly forgotten) movement. Look I preferred Bernie over Hilary as well. But I never agreed with that platform, that Hilary was somehow in the pocket of Wall Street because a few firms paid her to speak. Gotta bring more evidence than that homie.

 
Please follow the rules, I don't want another locked debate thread

[DarkNemesis]

Says you. Burn, baby, burn!

 

But seriously, does anyone believe that this debate will show Trump in presidential form? Or will Wallace pick him apart too?

[waleuska]

Says you. Burn, baby, burn!

 

But seriously, does anyone believe that this debate will show Trump in presidential form? Or will Wallace pick him apart too?

him sniffing cocaine in front of everyone.

[RamenRenegade]

Historically the final debate has had little sway on the final results.

[DarkNemesis]

Historically the final debate has had little sway on the final results.

Fair point. But we've never had an election like this before. So anything is fair game.

[RamenRenegade]

Fair point. But we've never had an election like this before. So anything is fair game.

I would agree except Hilary has anywhere from a 6 to 11 point lead over Trump and is either leading, tied with or only a point other 2 behind behind key battleground states.

Barring a serious meltdown by Clinton, some new crazy scandal, or voter suppression by the GOP, this race is over.

[DarkNemesis]

Barring a serious meltdown by Clinton, some new crazy scandal, or voter suppression by the GOP, this race is over.

Meltdown, not likely, but not impossible. There's been a few crazy new scandals and nothing has stuck or swayed the people. So maybe we need to redefine 'crazy new scandal'. Voter suppression by the GOP is already in play.

The 3 things that worry me though are:

• Those who have given up and not voted. (Yes, I'm in that group.)
• The people who won't vote because they think one candidate or another is guaranteed to win.
• Polling being wildly inaccurate. Either because the sampling was done incorrectly or people are purposefully giving false data to the pollers.

We won't know until anything definitive until Nov 9, when the sunrises. If we're lucky. The first two worries me because of the potential of there being too many people to do that. Therefore, throwing off the election. The third has been mentioned but not really focused on. Maybe so there's no more fuel added to Trump's claim of election rigging. But honestly, who knows.

Edited by DarkNemesis, 18 October 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[Oben]

• Those who have given up and not voted. (Yes, I'm in that group.)

 

This may sound a bit overmoralized, but voting is a duty. Who you vote for is your own business, and may feel pointless when you've spent your entire life in a democracy, but it is not. Voter return alone is important to legitimize and control the government, which isn't just the president and cabinet, but literally all services it provides from the military to infrastructure. You damage democracy if you don't vote, and waste it away.

Also, you can be sure that the people you dislike are going to vote. Why would you give them a free pass?

[DarkNemesis]

This may sound a bit overmoralized, but voting is a duty. Who you vote for is your own business, and may feel pointless when you've spent your entire life in a democracy, but it is not. Voter return alone is important to legitimize and control the government, which isn't just the president and cabinet, but literally all services it provides from the military to infrastructure. You damage democracy if you don't vote, and waste it away.

Also, you can be sure that the people you dislike are going to vote. Why would you give them a free pass?

 

No, actually, I agree. Unfortunately, I'm not registered to vote in the state I'm in and that time to do so has passed. So, this is one of the very few elections where I haven't voted. So at this point, it's out of my hands.

 

If democracy and freedom still exists in 4 years, I'll be sure to correct that mistake. I know I sound flippant, but I am being serious.

[Tom Ace]

Wow, that veritas video on YT is damning.... I always stay away from politics but don't know what to think anymore...

[DarkNemesis]

Wow, that veritas video on YT is damning.... I always stay away from politics but don't know what to think anymore...

 

[retroluffy13]

[ryuzaki07]

This may sound a bit overmoralized, but voting is a duty. Who you vote for is your own business, and may feel pointless when you've spent your entire life in a democracy, but it is not. Voter return alone is important to legitimize and control the government, which isn't just the president and cabinet, but literally all services it provides from the military to infrastructure. You damage democracy if you don't vote, and waste it away.

Also, you can be sure that the people you dislike are going to vote. Why would you give them a free pass?

Youre right. It does sound overmoralized, but I know its not because theres no real moral sentiment behind it, youre just trying to get a vote for Hillary with a half-hearted little speech about democracy. I severely doubt that you would say the same to a person that is tiptoeing between Trump and nothing, in fact I know you wouldnt. Because you dont view Trump voters as fellow citizens of the USA, but as faceless opponents. This is a much broader phenomenom though, as the divide between americans is much more apparent then ever. Hillary herself doesnt hold back from directly insulting her opponents supporters, and I wouldnt be suprised if Trump has done the same at some point in this election.

 

This farce of an election is probably the biggest blow to American democracy in decades and yet you want people to support it? If a citizen doesnt believe in none of the candidates, then is his vote really doing any good for democracy? No, thats just spitting in the face of the men and women who have given their lives for democracy, for the people to be able to choose a government that serves them above all else. If you vote without any real faith then all youre doing is taking this right for granted. Youre turning democracy into a cynical industry that produces only more and more corrupt candidates who use their supporters as tools to sustain their power. The citizen being no more relevant to the politician than a junkie to a meth dealer, but just as useful. The right not to vote is something truly democratic, because it literally gives the people more options.

 

In Brazil, we dont get that option, not as it is in the US at least, and look at our politics: Theyre an awful, grotesque caricature of democracy, and corruption is not common, its a fucking industry. People are pressured to go vote , and youre penalized if you dont show up. I severely doubt that things would have gotten as ugly as they have around here if people had the choice to not vote, because then they would value voting much more and dont just vote for who they think theyll win, or the "least worse" candidate. I actually really admire the USA's take on demoracy, from the right not to vote to the right to own firearms, the faith that was placed upon the people by the nations founders is immense. Sure, these rights may even present their own set of problems, but theyre so much better than the alternative, they cannot be forfeit. 

 

Its a citizens duty not only to their country, but to their ancestors who fought for their rights to not take their own right to vote lightly. The media is trying their hardest to turn elections into a celebrity dick-measuring, shit flinging fuckshow, but at the end of the day it is the power to choose which direction the country goes falls into its citizens, so if you truly dont believe in none of the candidates, it is your duty to be true to your own sense of morality and not vote for them, because at the end of the day you can have a clear conscience when you avoided being made a fool of by these clowns, and that is the attitude that will truly benefit democracy and honor the people who fought for it. 

Edited by ryuzaki07, 18 October 2016 - 04:39 PM.

[retroluffy13]

Youre right. It does sound overmoralized, but I know its not because theres no real moral sentiment behind it, youre just trying to get a vote for Hillary with a half-hearted little speech about democracy. I severely doubt that you would say the same to a person that is tiptoeing between Trump and nothing, in fact I know you wouldnt. Because you dont view Trump voters as fellow citizens of the USA, but as faceless opponents. This is a much broader phenomenom though, as the divide between americans is much more apparent then ever. Hillary herself doesnt hold back from directly insulting her opponents supporters, and I wouldnt be suprised if Trump has done the same at some point in this election.

 

This farce of an election is probably the biggest blow to American democracy in decades and yet you want people to support it? If a citizen doesnt believe in none of the candidates, then is his vote really doing any good for democracy? No, thats just spitting in the face of the men and women who have given their lives for democracy, for the people to be able to choose a government that serves them above all else. If you vote without any real faith then all youre doing is taking this right for granted. Youre turning democracy into a cynical industry that produces only more and more corrupt candidates who use their supporters as tools to sustain their power. The citizen being no more relevant to the politician than a junkie to a meth dealer, but just as useful. The right not to vote is something truly democratic, because it literally gives the people more options.

 

In Brazil, we dont get that option, not as it is in the US at least, and look at our politics: Theyre an awful, grotesque caricature of democracy, and corruption is not common, its a fucking industry. People are pressured to go vote , and youre penalized if you dont show up. I severely doubt that things would have gotten as ugly as they have around here if people had the choice to not vote, because then they would value voting much more and dont just vote for who they think theyll win, or the "least worse" candidate. I actually really admire the USA's take on demoracy, from the right not to vote to the right to own firearms, the faith that was placed upon the people by the nations founders is immense. Sure, these rights may even present their own set of problems, but theyre so much better than the alternative, they cannot be forfeit. 

 

Its a citizens duty not only to their country, but to their ancestors who fought for their rights to not take their own right to vote lightly. The media is trying their hardest to turn elections into a celebrity dick-measuring, shit flinging fuckshow, but at the end of the day it is the power to choose which direction the country goes falls into its citizens, so if you truly dont believe in none of the candidates, it is your duty to be true to your own sense of morality and not vote for them, because at the end of the day you can have a clear conscience when you avoided being made a fool of by these clowns, and that is the attitude that will truly benefit democracy and honor the people who fought for it. 

its actually a fantastic point that its a wonderful thing that americans are free to excersize they're right to not vote as well as to vote, however they want to play it.  however this election is not an election I think people should sit out.  someone going to win either way, and as horrible as it sounds, both canidates represent two very polarizing evils.   for once, our vote genuinely matters.  I could see sitting out one of those pointless elections where its just random white guy a v random white guy b because neither one of those canidates is going to change things.  but this election couldnt be further from that.  Hilary means taking one last swig of the corrupt but effective system we have in place before working towards serious political reform in the future while the other threatens the rise of a powerful, ill intent voice into the mainstream of American politics.  if trump wins, these scary elections of mud slinging and shit calling become the standard practice.

Edited by retroluffy13, 18 October 2016 - 05:50 PM.

[Oben]

Youre right. It does sound overmoralized, but I know its not because theres no real moral sentiment behind it, youre just trying to get a vote for Hillary with a half-hearted little speech about democracy. I severely doubt that you would say the same to a person that is tiptoeing between Trump and nothing, in fact I know you wouldnt. Because you dont view Trump voters as fellow citizens of the USA, but as faceless opponents. This is a much broader phenomenom though, as the divide between americans is much more apparent then ever. Hillary herself doesnt hold back from directly insulting her opponents supporters, and I wouldnt be suprised if Trump has done the same at some point in this election.

 

This farce of an election is probably the biggest blow to American democracy in decades and yet you want people to support it? If a citizen doesnt believe in none of the candidates, then is his vote really doing any good for democracy? No, thats just spitting in the face of the men and women who have given their lives for democracy, for the people to be able to choose a government that serves them above all else. If you vote without any real faith then all youre doing is taking this right for granted. Youre turning democracy into a cynical industry that produces only more and more corrupt candidates who use their supporters as tools to sustain their power. The citizen being no more relevant to the politician than a junkie to a meth dealer, but just as useful. The right not to vote is something truly democratic, because it literally gives the people more options.

 

In Brazil, we dont get that option, not as it is in the US at least, and look at our politics: Theyre an awful, grotesque caricature of democracy, and corruption is not common, its a fucking industry. People are pressured to go vote , and youre penalized if you dont show up. I severely doubt that things would have gotten as ugly as they have around here if people had the choice to not vote, because then they would value voting much more and dont just vote for who they think theyll win, or the "least worse" candidate. I actually really admire the USA's take on demoracy, from the right not to vote to the right to own firearms, the faith that was placed upon the people by the nations founders is immense. Sure, these rights may even present their own set of problems, but theyre so much better than the alternative, they cannot be forfeit. 

 

Its a citizens duty not only to their country, but to their ancestors who fought for their rights to not take their own right to vote lightly. The media is trying their hardest to turn elections into a celebrity dick-measuring, shit flinging fuckshow, but at the end of the day it is the power to choose which direction the country goes falls into its citizens, so if you truly dont believe in none of the candidates, it is your duty to be true to your own sense of morality and not vote for them, because at the end of the day you can have a clear conscience when you avoided being made a fool of by these clowns, and that is the attitude that will truly benefit democracy and honor the people who fought for it. 

 

Ok... listen up. Don't insult my conscience and don't make wrong presumptions about my morals. But I'll be polite. First of, and I'm surprised I still have to make this clear because I have to mention it pretty often so that people don't misunderstand my posts, I am not an American citizen and would not want to be one if I had the choice, alright? I'm an otaku on the internet who enjoys to talk about politics, and American politics happens to be the thing most easily at hand. I'd also talk about the French election next year but apparently nobdy cares about that here. And I would also recommend every Frenchmen to go to vote if that was as much of an issue there as it - apparently - is here.

 

Anyway, DN has repeatedly talked about voting for third party, which I personally consider unwise in this case, but from a general point of view, it is far preferable to not voting. If he wants to vote for Stein or Johnson or write in Sanders or John Travolta, he can go for it. Even for Trump, although I do in fact think that would be retarded. If Trump wins, it must at least be because he won more votes and not because he lost less.

 

And my duty to my ancestors? All of my grandparents grew up in facism and none of them (at least the ones still alive) EVER missed an election in post-war Germany, from town-hall to federal level. Because voting IS a duty and democracy, with all its flaws, is by an infinitely long shot the best alternative we have. If you want to change Brazil, stop being whiny and work for a change. Grassroots are a thing.

Edited by Oben, 18 October 2016 - 06:31 PM.

[Narubi]

But seriously, does anyone believe that this debate will show Trump in presidential form?

 

With what's been happening lately and how Trump has been a tabloid on a tangent, raging to just about anyone or thing, barring his supporters (yet). Him being Presidential is most unlikely to be seen in this third and final debate. 

[DarkNemesis]

So the latest email dump has shown why Trump is the frontrunner.

1. The GOP for the last 8, if not arguably 16, years have convinced the base of everything Trump is talking about.
2. They have made promises to the base that they never intended to keep.
3. They continued their policies and promises knowing that they had the Democrats to fall back on if they needed someone to blame.
4. The events of the past 2 years seem to have magically align themselves to make Trump's argument seem to pass the test of credibility.

First it was the Mexicans, then the Muslims, and now the rigged elections. And there has been an event to back up, even fleetingly, whatever he's saying at the moment.

Edited by DarkNemesis, 18 October 2016 - 07:36 PM.

[JasonDM]

So the latest email dump has shown why Trump is the frontrunner.

• The GOP for the last 8, if not arguably 16, years have convinced the base of everything Trump is talking about.
• They have made promises to the base that they never intended to keep.
• They continued their policies and promises knowing that they had the Democrats to fall back on if they needed someone to blame.
• The events of the past 2 years seem to have magically align themselves to make Trump's argument seem to pass the test of credibility.

First it was the Mexicans, then the Muslims, and now the rigged elections. And there has been an event to back up, even fleetingly, whatever he's saying at the moment.

Like I said to you a few weeks back, Trump was the one who said Saudi Arabia was behind 9/11 and people laughed it off, yet it was true and now no one gives him credit for it, simply because they don't want to come off as hypocritical. It makes you wonder what else he says is actually true.

This election is messed up, I think if some super-informed average-Joe/Jane ran instead of Trump, as a republican, he/she would be winning in a landslide right now, but Trump is his own worst enemy. He should be taking the approach Hillary is, which is sit back and let shit fall where it may and then attack. He put himself in one big shit throwing fight that he was never going to win.

[Phenomiracle]

This may sound a bit overmoralized, but voting is a duty. Who you vote for is your own business, and may feel pointless when you've spent your entire life in a democracy, but it is not. 

 

Lol no.

 

Voting is a right, not a duty. 

 

For starters, choosing to abstain from a vote is a form of voting on its own. Vote abstention is a fairly common option in many governmental bodies at all levels. If an individual isn't compelled to choose between any of the choices presented to him/her, perfectly plausible for him/her to opt out on the basis that s/he is unsure or feels better off with others making the decision. 

 

We live in a free society before we do a democracy.

 

Secondly, there is no absolute moral imperative in voting. To assert so, you must be able to prove that collective decision-making is universally moral. Which, of course, it is not. Consider that many options on ballots manifest as government predations on individual freedoms and rights. Voters, for example, have the right to vote on what to do with other individual's wealth. 

 

In Brazil, we dont get that option, not as it is in the US at least, and look at our politics: Theyre an awful, grotesque caricature of democracy, and corruption is not common, its a fucking industry. People are pressured to go vote , and youre penalized if you dont show up. I severely doubt that things would have gotten as ugly as they have around here if people had the choice to not vote, because then they would value voting much more and dont just vote for who they think theyll win, or the "least worse" candidate. I actually really admire the USA's take on demoracy, from the right not to vote to the right to own firearms, the faith that was placed upon the people by the nations founders is immense. Sure, these rights may even present their own set of problems, but theyre so much better than the alternative, they cannot be forfeit. 

 

This is the sort of ugliness the whole "voting is a civic duty" mantra runs right into like a fucking freight train.

 

@Oben, Western democratic values come foremost from the principle that man retains the right to choose for himself what he wishes to do or say, so long as he does not infringe on other's rights to do the same.

 

To argue anyway against that is to concede that this particular liberty is worth putting in jeopardy. 

 

If you want to change Brazil, stop being whiny and work for a change. Grassroots are a thing.

 

Totally not condescending or arrogant at all.

Edited by Phenomiracle, 18 October 2016 - 08:59 PM.

[ryuzaki07]

And my duty to my ancestors? All of my grandparents grew up in facism and none of them (at least the ones still alive) EVER missed an election in post-war Germany, from town-hall to federal level. Because voting IS a duty

Youre not saying anything new here. Your grandparents didnt vote becaue it was their duty to vote, but because they had a right to it. Their duty was to vote for who they believed in. Youre tarnishing their suffering under fascism by claiming that people have a duty to vote, even if they dont believe in any of the candidates. But you werent really thinking of them when you made your post, youre just mentioning them now for leverage. How sad, really.

 

 

 

 

democracy, with all its flaws, is by an infinitely long shot the best alternative we have.

Im not sure what you wanted to convey here, but the thing that youre arguing agaisnt is a right made possible only throught democracy. All choices are equally valid as long as the voter is confident about them, and that is what your argument lacks, the confidence aspect. Otherwise whats different from voting in an online poll about your favorite pornstar than voting from president? Well, even then, the pornstar vote would have more meaning than the latter because it at least was something you choose to do, not something you were obligated or had a duty to do.

 

 

 

If you want to change Brazil, stop being whiny and work for a change.

What do you mean, "work for a change"? If you mean by actually putting in effort to make a change, I can proudly tell you that youre dead fucking wrong that I havent, you giant hypocrite. I wouldnt fault you for not knowing shit about Brazil, but I guess I need to enlighten you about our current political climate: You see, over the course of maybe the last two years, there have been lots and lots of civil protests agaisnt the government, 10 of which I attended, and 3 of which I actively helped organize groups to attend them. Maybe im not like your grandparents, and Im thankful that I didnt go throught all the shit they went, but to assume that I didnt do anything without even much as an insight into my life is a fucking joke.

Edited by ryuzaki07, 18 October 2016 - 09:25 PM.