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[Discussion] Power Levels (Part 4)


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#21 captain kidd

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 12:06 PM

It is not far off if we assume that Garp, who unlike WB was not sick on MF war, is most likely still one of the best haki users there are in op world. Reason for that is that only him and WB were equals to GR, and unlike WB, Garp does not seem to be a fruit user, ergo his lacking destructive ability is safe to assume to have been overcome by sheer massiv haki. Moreover Garp already was discribed as the Demon of the marines iirc.
Therefore i doubt that any other character, except Shanks, whos haki was already pointed out to be special, and mayhaps Kaidou who seems like a brawler to me (pure speculation though), has anywhere near the amount of Haki Garp once was capable of in the past, not necessarily in MF war anymore though.
Furthermore Garp made it pretty clear that he at least pretty much stood hugely above Akainu by saying to Sengoku he'd better keep Garp down otherwise Akainu would get murdered, although he pretty much came to his senses shortly thereafter,meaning not to betray/weakening the marines by such a deed.
I may be biased here, but for me only Garp was able to inflict any damage to Marco (prior to kairoseki, the harm he received during that time for me has hugely affected his fighting prowess in generel, since i doubt that someone that normally does not feel any damage, because of DF, has a huge pain resistance), therefore his fighting capacity, at least for me, is still hugely underrated.


Wait what? All i remember is him stating that he could not stay the strongest forever...shit its been a too long time, i think i should reread op.....

BTW i dont mean to state/present what i wrote as fact, just things to consider.


I think there are a few too many assumption in your analysis of garp.
1- him and wb were gold rogers equals. I dont think this is the case. If anything they were a little weaker, but if they were his equals, espically wb, roger couldnt really be the king.
2- garp's lack of df power is compensated by his haki. This conclusion doesnt need to follow at all. The man can lift up a several 100 ton steel ball and throw it with ease. That hakiless feat alone puts him in the top 20 fighters we know about. Give him emperor level endurance and make him the best hand to hand fighter in op and he could have no haki and still be the 3rd or 4th strongest in his hay day.
So obviously garp has good or even great haki, but he doesnt have to have amazing haki just because he lacks a df. Miahwk could have mediocre haki and he would still be mihawk.

Also, and this will be controversial, lets talk about garp's haki. Haki is willpower, and as rey explained to my horror, "not doubting ones self, that is power" and tons of fans claimed chinjoa is weaker due to his emotional state. So haki is directly linked to ones emotinal state and drive. What is garp's drive? What does garp have to fight for or strive to acomplish? Roger is probably dead his son doesnt seem too important to him and he let ace be executed so why would garp have a powerful drive? Espically in the war when he was actively fighting against ace living which we saw later, is not what he wanted.

So that is just food for thought, i am not aure i even believe the whole "stronger belife = stronger haki" that seems stupid, but i have heard it enough i figured it was worth the mention.
Oh side note, speaking of stupid haki uses, if luffy can run out of coa, why does he cover his whole fist in it for elephant gun when he only need to cover the knuckles? The black look is cool but a waste of haki.




Ok for wb's "i cant always be the strongest" the oppertive word is "always" or "forever" it is the same way a parent will talk when they have to do something for their kids
Kid "dad make me dinner"
Dad "you will have to learn to make it yourself, i wont always be around to do this"
The sentence proves the parent will do the task, but highlights the fact the child needs to learn. Obviously wb isnt telling his kids they need to become the strongest.

I think most importantly is sengoku, the man called the buddah would surely know he cant give wb titles he didnt earn for the sake of unit moral.
If you were a certain MMA fightee who recently got his ass kicked by arguably the best ever professional boxer, what would you rather hear going into the match to give you a better out look on victory
"That man is the world's best boxer, he could defest anyone on earth in a boxing match he hs no equal"
Or
"That man is 40 years old hasnt been in the ring in 1 year and even then he did bad. He is great but he is beatable, he may have been the best at one point but now he is old, this is you time"

Napoleon said 70% of the battle is moral. If you wanted to motivate your soldiers, sengoku yelling "watchout the storngest man on the world is comming" "oh no wb has the power to destroy the world" that isnt helping your soldiers.

I will admit sengoku is only as smart as oda knows how to make him.... oda had wb's "smart move" coating his ships then putting himself in the center of an ambush. That is the equivlent of turning invisible, robbing a bank, then reappearing in the center of a prison. Oda failed wb there. If oda had wb do that same exact move, only pop up in the tri current and try to take ace back, that would be genius, could you imagine that?

Also there is the arguement sengoku kept his title to keep his men on their toes, but that is stupid. His fodder wasnt going to assume wb was their level because he was sick. It could only possibly help in the op world.
 
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#22 D.Hyuga

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:18 PM


Ok for wb's "i cant always be the strongest" the oppertive word is "always" or "forever" it is the same way a parent will talk when they have to do something for their kids
Kid "dad make me dinner"
Dad "you will have to learn to make it yourself, i wont always be around to do this"
The sentence proves the parent will do the task, but highlights the fact the child needs to learn. Obviously wb isnt telling his kids they need to become the strongest.

 

 

You should take better example, that one has nothing to do with what WB said.

 

You could give example of Bolt.

 

                USAIN BOLT

[ THE WORLD'S FASTEST MAN ]

 

And at WC he came with that title, he went in retirement with that title, but was he the fastest at WC, NO!

 

So maybe WB's power level at prime was greater than anyone at that time, maybe even at MF no one gained power as WB had in his prime, when he was named WSM, but WB was not the strongest man at MF.

 

I really hope that you and others now understand how things are.



#23 captain kidd

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 09:09 AM

You should take better example, that one has nothing to do with what WB said.

You could give example of Bolt.

USAIN BOLT
[ THE WORLD'S FASTEST MAN ]

And at WC he came with that title, he went in retirement with that title, but was he the fastest at WC, NO!

So maybe WB's power level at prime was greater than anyone at that time, maybe even at MF no one gained power as WB had in his prime, when he was named WSM, but WB was not the strongest man at MF.

I really hope that you and others now understand how things are.


That example is horrible.... not only is usain bolt not the fastest man alive, and never was, but he isnt anymore.

1- "the fastest man alive" is more of a marketing/ branding attmept. Look at wwe they had a guy called Mark Henery who was billed as the world's strongest man. He wasnt. Same story. They both have impressive records in single events within their much larger sports.
2- He never was the world's fastest man. He was a sprinter who compete in 100-200m events. Put him in a maraton and he is out of his element, he would lose, So that means someone would be faster then him right? In one/two events of the large sport of track and field he was the best, but like i said above, Mark Henery's world record in military press doesnt mean he is the strongest man in the world, it is only one event.
3- who the hell gives out titles? In OP it is an omnicient narrator. Is the real world? Well? Me? Do i give out titles? Then i will give myself the title of world's most correct debator.

But if you really want this uncompatable anaology to work fine, it would be perfect if usain bolt had a WB moment right before the last olympics.
"I cant always be the fastest sprinter in the 100m/200m" then he went out and was but was obviously losing his once great speed, yet he still won the race.


The more apt comparison can only be found in fiction. Where an all knowing narrator gives an elderly character a title.




Frankly, i am sick of this nonsense. I have oda, i have sengoku and WB and everyone else in the war saying wb is the strongest. What evidence do you have that wb WASN'T the strongest? Your feelings?
 
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#24 capu

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 03:12 PM


If anything they were a little weaker, but if they were his equals, espically wb, roger couldnt really be the king.

Well there is a difference. I mean  following ur logic WB would have been king after GRs death. The reason WB, as GRs equal was not king but GR was that he simply had no interest in seizing the throne like DD implied. All WB ever cared about  was his family, not toppling the WG or making them his enemy by revealing the informaiton about what Raftel actually is about. He himself stated that he had no interest in going to Raftel in his meeting with GR, but for common folks the king is the one who reaches Raftel, which even if he knew the truth about the  history, but unbeknownst to the common folk, WB did not do.

 

 


garp's lack of df power is compensated by his haki. This conclusion doesnt need to follow at all.

True that, but considering the info we currently have, which is that all powerhouses possess haki and use it (with the exception of possibly BB, who may have wanted his his darkness fruit in order to make up for his lacking amount haki, not that he does not have it, simply not strong enough), i dont believe it to be likely.

 

 

 


Give him emperor level endurance and make him the best hand to hand fighter in op and he could have no haki and still be the 3rd or 4th strongest in his hay day.

I would agree if it were not for the fact that Oda directly linked Garp to GR and WB. If he would have simply been the 3rd, 4rth strongest it might have been possible if the gap was still huge, but Oda choose to make them equals, and someone with the power to fight the WG alongside his crew and possibly even win (sick old dieing WB far away from prime was enough to make them shit their pants), if it were not for Garp and illness must have tremendous power himself. I highly doubtful that GR and Garp do not mimik one another, espeically if u consider that the main  character Luffy is Garps grandson, and his haki in MF was said to have been because it was lineage thing, mimiks both as well (Gorosei commented Luffys several actions/rashness as having to do with being Garps grandson). Thus highly likely that Garp is the reason for Luffys high haki potential and has used it himself. 

 

 

 


So obviously garp has good or even great haki, but he doesnt have to have amazing haki just because he lacks a df. Miahwk could have mediocre haki and he would still be mihawk.

True but mihawk is a swordsman and we know that cutting has to do with understanding the aura of something else (Zoro vs Mr.1). Moreover i believe Mihawk to be a bad example, since he is the only swrodsman we know of whos sword is constantly clad in haki.

 

 

 


What is garp's drive?

We know far too little about the reasons for Garp having ever become marine, therefore all i can do here is speculate. i.e. it might even be that as a youth he saw an entire nation having been oppressed by some ruler/dictator or soemthing like that, which led to Garp becoming driven by his desire to protect innocents from such people, making him become an marine.

It could also be that all he ever wished  to become was an honorable man in itself, thus the drive being honor, he choose his obligation as a marine above his parental views/love i.e. because for him it was the thing he needed to do. Such responsible behavior may be enough to enforce/strenghten ur haki.

 

 

 


why would garp have a powerful drive?

Because the GR time was said to have been far worse than the current one. Therefore the amount of people in need of protection might have been significantly higher.

 

 


Espically in the war when he was actively fighting against ace living which we saw later, is not what he wanted.

 

I  agree but all that means is that Garp in MF would not haven been 100% Garp, not that his haki would not still have been among the highest, even if lower than if under other circumstances, there was in MF war. After Aces death Garp was sure to still have been capable of murdering Ace after all. And this was still a Garp who is old and whos prime because of age has long passed, just like with WB.

 

 

 


Oh side note, speaking of stupid haki uses, if luffy can run out of coa, why does he cover his whole fist in it for elephant gun when he only need to cover the knuckles? The black look is cool but a waste of haki.

I have asked myself the same question, sadly have not found an answer to it yet.

 

 


Ok for wb's "i cant always be the strongest" the oppertive word is "always" or "forever" it is the same way a parent will talk when they have to do something for their kids

Kid "dad make me dinner"
Dad "you will have to learn to make it yourself, i wont always be around to do this"
The sentence proves the parent will do the task, but highlights the fact the child needs to learn. Obviously wb isnt telling his kids they need to become the strongest.

.

I aint sure but was that not a speech bubble signifing a thought, not words spoken aloud? 

Ye i checked, it is a thought , ergo WB actually admitted that he could not stay the strongest forever. http://mangaseeonlin...63-page-23.html

 

 

 


That is the equivlent of turning invisible, robbing a bank, then reappearing in the center of a prison.

:D

 

 

 


So maybe WB's power level at prime was greater than anyone at that time, maybe even at MF no one gained power as WB had in his prime, when he was named WSM, but WB was not the strongest man at MF.

I agree.

 

 


Frankly, i am sick of this nonsense. I have oda, i have sengoku and WB and everyone else in the war saying wb is the strongest. What evidence do you have that wb WASN'T the strongest? Your feelings?

Several people (croc marco etc) claming WB has severely weakened. WB not being able to use CoC when he is said to have had it, but unable to do what Luffy does....WB being unable to use CoO when Marco says he should have seen this coming. For someone to have such extremely lower haki ability then what even fodder is capable of cries: fuck it i am fodder to whom i once was!

 

WB having the need of constant supervising by doctors and having the need for cannules cries: shit  my health sucks, i am at deaths door...

 

WB getting 2 heart attacks cries: fuck it i truly am close to death....dont know why not die inMF since i die in a month or 2 anyway....

 

WBs CoA sucking so much he was unable to protect himself  from fodders gunshots cries: shit man i need to fully concentrate everything i have to not die because of the strain breathing (or somehting the like) puts on me....hmh best die in MF that way i can die standing tall one last time.....showing them that even if sick old and dieing those fodder shits who call themselfs adrmials are nowhere to what i once was even if only like at 50% max to whom i was...


Edited by capu, 22 November 2017 - 03:21 PM.


#25 Sesshoumaru

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:29 PM

Marco vs Katakuri - Katakuri wins high diff.

Marco vs Cracker - Marco wins high diff.

Jozu vs Katakuri - Katakuri wins high diff.

Jozu vs Cracker - Jozu wins high diff (Cracker can't hurt him).

Vista vs Katakuri - Katakuri wins mid to high diff.

Vista vs Cracker - Vista wins high dif. (bad matchup for Cracker since swords are more likely to cut through his defense which is his one major skill)

 

I might upgrade Marco to a close win vs Katakuri when he gets better feats in the future.

 

Oh and everyone >> Smoothie



#26 D.Hyuga

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:58 PM


Marco vs Cracker - Marco wins high diff.

 

Marco is lacking fire power, he wont be able to brake Crackers cocoon.

 

Vista is highly overrated, just because Mihawk didn't one shot him, that doesn't mean that he is great, and he also lack fire power.

 

Jozu has strength and diamond protection, and err nothing else, DD  toyed with him.



#27 captain kidd

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:21 PM

Well there is a difference. I mean following ur logic WB would have been king after GRs death. The reason WB, as GRs equal was not king but GR was that he simply had no interest in seizing the throne like DD implied. All WB ever cared about was his family, not toppling the WG or making them his enemy by revealing the informaiton about what Raftel actually is about. He himself stated that he had no interest in going to Raftel in his meeting with GR, but for common folks the king is the one who reaches Raftel, which even if he knew the truth about the history, but unbeknownst to the common folk, WB did not do.


True that, but considering the info we currently have, which is that all powerhouses possess haki and use it (with the exception of possibly BB, who may have wanted his his darkness fruit in order to make up for his lacking amount haki, not that he does not have it, simply not strong enough), i dont believe it to be likely.



I would agree if it were not for the fact that Oda directly linked Garp to GR and WB. If he would have simply been the 3rd, 4rth strongest it might have been possible if the gap was still huge, but Oda choose to make them equals, and someone with the power to fight the WG alongside his crew and possibly even win (sick old dieing WB far away from prime was enough to make them shit their pants), if it were not for Garp and illness must have tremendous power himself. I highly doubtful that GR and Garp do not mimik one another, espeically if u consider that the main character Luffy is Garps grandson, and his haki in MF was said to have been because it was lineage thing, mimiks both as well (Gorosei commented Luffys several actions/rashness as having to do with being Garps grandson). Thus highly likely that Garp is the reason for Luffys high haki potential and has used it himself.



True but mihawk is a swordsman and we know that cutting has to do with understanding the aura of something else (Zoro vs Mr.1). Moreover i believe Mihawk to be a bad example, since he is the only swrodsman we know of whos sword is constantly clad in haki.



We know far too little about the reasons for Garp having ever become marine, therefore all i can do here is speculate. i.e. it might even be that as a youth he saw an entire nation having been oppressed by some ruler/dictator or soemthing like that, which led to Garp becoming driven by his desire to protect innocents from such people, making him become an marine.
It could also be that all he ever wished to become was an honorable man in itself, thus the drive being honor, he choose his obligation as a marine above his parental views/love i.e. because for him it was the thing he needed to do. Such responsible behavior may be enough to enforce/strenghten ur haki.



Because the GR time was said to have been far worse than the current one. Therefore the amount of people in need of protection might have been significantly higher.



I agree but all that means is that Garp in MF would not haven been 100% Garp, not that his haki would not still have been among the highest, even if lower than if under other circumstances, there was in MF war. After Aces death Garp was sure to still have been capable of murdering Ace after all. And this was still a Garp who is old and whos prime because of age has long passed, just like with WB.



I have asked myself the same question, sadly have not found an answer to it yet.


.
I aint sure but was that not a speech bubble signifing a thought, not words spoken aloud?
Ye i checked, it is a thought , ergo WB actually admitted that he could not stay the strongest forever. http://mangaseeonlin...63-page-23.html



:D



I agree.


Several people (croc marco etc) claming WB has severely weakened. WB not being able to use CoC when he is said to have had it, but unable to do what Luffy does....WB being unable to use CoO when Marco says he should have seen this coming. For someone to have such extremely lower haki ability then what even fodder is capable of cries: fuck it i am fodder to whom i once was!

WB having the need of constant supervising by doctors and having the need for cannules cries: shit my health sucks, i am at deaths door...

WB getting 2 heart attacks cries: fuck it i truly am close to death....dont know why not die inMF since i die in a month or 2 anyway....

WBs CoA sucking so much he was unable to protect himself from fodders gunshots cries: shit man i need to fully concentrate everything i have to not die because of the strain breathing (or somehting the like) puts on me....hmh best die in MF that way i can die standing tall one last time.....showing them that even if sick old and dieing those fodder shits who call themselfs adrmials are nowhere to what i once was even if only like at 50% max to whom i was...


I dont have much time so i cant reply in length. But i have to say these-

1- speach or thought that isnt the point, the point is how that phrase is used. It is used as a way of saying "one day i will lose this"
Have you never really seen someone talking like this before? The most famous instence ever is in leathal weapon 3, the infamous "i am getting too old for this" line from Murtaugh. He didnt mean that line to say "shit i am old i cant do this i quit" he ment it as "wow i am getting old, one day soon i will not be able to do this"
Wb saying "i cant be the strongest forever" is the same thing.
Try this yourself. Look in a mirror, say "i cant have this amazing hair forever" ok makes sense, now remember your something that you have long since lost, idk your favorite shoes, and say "i cant wear air jordans forever" the fact you currently are not wearing and dont even own a pair will make what you said not only look stupid, but pointless and obvious.

So ask yourself, was wb saying one day he will lose his throne, or was he using a cryptic message to directly contradict oda and confuse us fans 4+ years later.


2 ya no one is denying wb was weaker. The question is was he still the strongest. By virtue of WB's DF alone he was in the top 10, give buggy his df and buggy would be in the top 10. How much more did wb need? He still had insane physical strength durability that would put anyone to shame. Ya his haki was possibly bad...still was able to hit akainu.....

I would still put old wb against BM and expect him to win 10 times out of 10
 
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#28 Fulmine

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:42 PM


Marco vs Cracker - Marco wins high diff.

This fight is between two guys whose attacking power is near meaningless against each other's defense/regeneration. They would just look at each other and wait till one is tired and sleepy to sneak a hit LOL

Marco has a little bit higher chance of winning though, given Cracker is glass canon so just a successfully landed kick might do wonder.

 

 

 

 


Vista vs Cracker - Vista wins high dif. (bad matchup for Cracker since swords are more likely to cut through his defense which is his one major skill)

I'm not sure if you're making pun (punch or kick or the likes doesn't cut so technically, by default sword attacks cut better :lol:) or if you really believe in that, which is something completely nonsense whether you use real life logic or One Piece logic.

 

Real life logic: pressure is a thing

One Piece logic: CoA/Hardening.


Edited by Fulmine, 22 November 2017 - 08:43 PM.

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#29 Sesshoumaru

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 03:23 PM

Marco is lacking fire power, he wont be able to brake Crackers cocoon.

 

 

Vista is highly overrated, just because Mihawk didn't one shot him, that doesn't mean that he is great, and he also lack fire power.

 

Jozu has strength and diamond protection, and err nothing else, DD  toyed with him.

Depends wether or not you think sending Kizaru flying is a great feat or just OK by New World standards. Sure, Kizaru was in the air, so sending him flying might not have been THAT hard; I for my part think that his kicks are a bit weaker than Kong Gun, but Kong Gun broke through the cocoon easily. Also I am pretty confident that we will get new Marco feats in the future, so I would bet on Marco.

 

Mihawk did not only not oneshot Vista but he also praised his ability and implied that a battle would take a great while, that's why he agreed to call it a day and stop the fight.

 

Jozu also has Haki. It's more likely for Jozu to break through Cracker's defense than Cracker actually hurting Jozu.

And you see, the thing with DD vs Jozu is a bit strange. Since DD could not manipulate Law or Luffy with his strings but could hold Jozu and Sanji in place and control weaker characters like puppets, I am under the impression that the sole factor in resisting DD's puppeteering is Haki. If it was physical strength, it would make not much sense except for the case where you say Sanji is physically as strong as Jozu and Law is physically stronger than Jozu. Seeing as Jozu is hard by nature, he doesn't need that high level Haki so he was not able to resist DD's puppeteering. Yet his effective Hardening (Haki+diamond) might be enough to break through Cracker's biscuits.

 

 

@Fulmine

 


This fight is between two guys whose attacking power is near meaningless against each other's defense/regeneration. They would just look at each other and wait till one is tired and sleepy to sneak a hit LOL

Marco has a little bit higher chance of winning though, given Cracker is glass canon so just a successfully landed kick might do wonder.

Agree.

 

 


I'm not sure if you're making pun (punch or kick or the likes doesn't cut so technically, by default sword attacks cut better :lol:) or if you really believe in that, which is something completely nonsense whether you use real life logic or One Piece logic.

 

Real life logic: pressure is a thing

One Piece logic: CoA/Hardening.

Sadly it was no intended pun.

We know since Hody that sharp attacks have an easier time breaking through Haki than blunt attacks. Which means attacking a Haki coated surface as a swordsman is more effective than using a punch. Since Cracker's defense is practically his one major trick, he should have a harder time dealing with skilled swordsmen than with hand to hand fighters (of same skill and Haki level). Vista's Haki might not be expert level, but he is a really skilled swordsman.

 

We also have to take into consideration that the Whitebeards were the underdogs in Marineford, whereas the BM pirates are the villains in this arc and thus portrayed as more threatening. I am assuming that the WB commanders have more to offer than they actually showed in MF. So my judgement is not based on feats alone.

Btw. how can you put peoples' name in the quotes manually? Back then it was with [QUOTE=NAME] :(


Edited by Sesshoumaru, 23 November 2017 - 03:28 PM.


#30 capu

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 05:34 PM


I dont have much time so i cant reply in length. But i have to say these-

No problemo.

 


1- speach or thought that isnt the point, the point is how that phrase is used. It is used as a way of saying "one day i will lose this"
Have you never really seen someone talking like this before? The most famous instence ever is in leathal weapon 3, the infamous "i am getting too old for this" line from Murtaugh. He didnt mean that line to say "shit i am old i cant do this i quit" he ment it as "wow i am getting old, one day soon i will not be able to do this"
Wb saying "i cant be the strongest forever" is the same thing.

First off k i see got u wrong. But even after u explained ur meaning i am even less convinced. I mean WB does look serious and there is no point in saying something like: "of course idiot everyone becomes weaker with age" especially not to urself, when only thinking not even speaking it aloud, after a moment when somone u once fought specifically reprimands u to have become THIS weak. I mean if he wanted to make clear that it is a natural thing he could have told that to croc without anyone else/only very few noticing. But he did it in a moment when he had his hand on the wound he received because his haki CoO has become so bad that he could not even see and evade the attack from a weakling like squardo coming,  much less had the CoA barrier to block it, the attack and others fodder gunshots simply went through his defenses, this tells me that theWB we saw was no longer true yonkou material (only speaking defensive wise, he still had the biggest offense we saw to that date), much less strongest man there is. To me it is more of an admittance WB does to himself than the logical statement everyone becomes weaker with age or sickness.

 


So ask yourself, was wb saying one day he will lose his throne, or was he using a cryptic message to directly contradict oda and confuse us fans 4+ years later.

Not fair i said that WB MF << WB few years prio when he actually was still strongest by far even during the MF war! And i gave reasoning for that often  enough already. Can i claim that i am100% right?, no ofcourse not, but it makes no sense that the marines would truly know about his health ,neither does it make sense that WB was actually challanged since the SHs began their journey often enough and by strong enough people with that health without the other yonkou trying to take him down.

 


.still was able to hit akainu.....

Not claiming he has no haki at all, but we all should undertsand that however much he was still capable of using in MF was NOTHING compared to WB prime when he was the strongest, since noone can tell me fodder Luffy, not even knowing about it, has bigger CoC than the strongest man alive who is proven to have it too, and who has had enough time to strenghten it.


Edited by capu, 23 November 2017 - 05:38 PM.


#31 Fulmine

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 07:11 AM


We know since Hody that sharp attacks have an easier time breaking through Haki than blunt attacks.

That's not what we know. What we know is Luffy said his Haki wasn't good enough yet. SO the problem is the user's proficiency, not that sharp attack automatically is better than blunt attack against Hardening/CoA.

 

 


(of same skill and Haki level)

Bingo! So you do understand proficiency matters. There's no such thing as swords are more likely to cut through. You have to judge on individual basis. So the fact that Vista uses swords means nothing. The real question is his CoA level and swordsmanship level which we know next to nothing about. Yeah, he's not losing to Mihawk in a short amount of time but what does that prove? At best it means he's much stronger than Vice Admirals and that's only under the assumption that Mihawk is stronger than Sabo. That says zero about him vs Cracker.

 

 


We also have to take into consideration that the Whitebeards were the underdogs in Marineford, whereas the BM pirates are the villains in this arc and thus portrayed as more threatening. I am assuming that the WB commanders have more to offer than they actually showed in MF. So my judgement is not based on feats alone.

More to offer? As in they didn't do their best to save Ace?

 

It's as simple and straightforward as 1+1=2. Marines were stronger so they won. BM pirates are stronger than SHs and co so they have the vast upper hand. That doesn't suddenly means their feats are not accurate and only portrayed like they are thanks to plot/story (well, everything is plot but the point is whether it's PIS. And I don't think it is. Hell, the one that has plot-armor is the SHs, not BM pirates).


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#32 captain kidd

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 09:42 AM

No problemo.

First off k i see got u wrong. But even after u explained ur meaning i am even less convinced. I mean WB does look serious and there is no point in saying something like: "of course idiot everyone becomes weaker with age" especially not to urself, when only thinking not even speaking it aloud, after a moment when somone u once fought specifically reprimands u to have become THIS weak. I mean if he wanted to make clear that it is a natural thing he could have told that to croc without anyone else/only very few noticing. But he did it in a moment when he had his hand on the wound he received because his haki CoO has become so bad that he could not even see and evade the attack from a weakling like squardo coming, much less had the CoA barrier to block it, the attack and others fodder gunshots simply went through his defenses, this tells me that theWB we saw was no longer true yonkou material (only speaking defensive wise, he still had the biggest offense we saw to that date), much less strongest man there is. To me it is more of an admittance WB does to himself than the logical statement everyone becomes weaker with age or sickness.

Not fair i said that WB MF << WB few years prio when he actually was still strongest by far even during the MF war! And i gave reasoning for that often enough already. Can i claim that i am100% right?, no ofcourse not, but it makes no sense that the marines would truly know about his health ,neither does it make sense that WB was actually challanged since the SHs began their journey often enough and by strong enough people with that health without the other yonkou trying to take him down.

Not claiming he has no haki at all, but we all should undertsand that however much he was still capable of using in MF was NOTHING compared to WB prime when he was the strongest, since noone can tell me fodder Luffy, not even knowing about it, has bigger CoC than the strongest man alive who is proven to have it too, and who has had enough time to strenghten it.

Oh well i agree 100% wb was weaker in mf, probably the weakest he ever was since gaining the title of world's strongest.

Hahhahaa "there is no point in saying every one gets weaker with age"
3 things with that
1- good lord if i had a dollar for every time oda made his characters point out something obvious i would be a rich man.
2- from a story telling perspective it works great as foreshadowing his death.
3- Pride. Have you ever seen a beautiful woman defend her beauty, even though everyone knows she is hot? Have you ever seen a strong man defend his inabiliy to lift something? Just because someone is at the top of their game doesnt mean they wont justify their failure. Even if the excuse is reasonable and obvious pride will still force them to make it known to all or even just yourself. This point is the hardest to explain and i cant really explain it you just need to know it, if you ever had an intangible that seprated you from your friend group that you were proud in, like your strength, looks, intleigence, humor, pick up game, anything you cant phsyically see. If it was threatened or even called into question you would justify it, either to yourself or out loud. Is it pety? Maybe, but its what we all do.

Wow there, gunshots and swords havent been shown to be stoppable by haki. Luffy even said haki holds up great against blunt attacks but weak against slash/stabbing attacks. And we may not know the names of those marines who attacked wb, but we do know boo had haki, and the marines in mf were all high ranking and the strongest they had.

Also, it is possible wb always soaked up damage the way he did in mf, what made him a monster wasnt the fact swords and bullets bounced off him, but the fact he (like luffy) could take a ton of attacks and keep comming. Not taking damage is a nice thing, but it is far from game changing. Imagine you had a kevlar blast suit and a pistol, and i had no armor and a anti tank missile. Hell you can upgrade to a rifle, your harder to shoot body is still meaningless against my overwhelming power. So for all we know that could very well be how WB lived his life and fought his battles. The shere amount of scars he had kinda proves that.

If taking damage made someone not emperor material, BB, who takes more damage then anyone, wouldnt be allowed anywhere near the throne.



Then you leave the facts and speculate again, we have no clue how wb fought and how much haki he used when he was younger. It is fact haki cant increase the amount of damage some attacks do. Speficially swords haki only prevents chiping the blade. As with df abilities we also have no clue if haki increases the damage they do. So wb who fought with a sword and a df, wouldnt have the need for much haki aside from the minium needed to touch logia. Same with dodging attacks/blocking attacks. Lets look at WB's fight with akainu, he took an attack, then imiditally returned an island breaking earth moving punch. There was no hestation at all. Wb took an attack that should of killed him and imiditally delivered an insanely powerful attack. Either WB compeletly revamped his fighting style in his old age, or it is possible that has been how he always fought. Not worrying about damage and instead using the opponents attacks opening to deliver his attack. A stupid way to fight? Probably, but when you can split islands with a single punch you can afford to take a sword to the gut.

So be careful talking about wb not dodging and not blocking, for all we know he never did those things. Unless the quake fruit got more powerful over time, it is possible wb never even had a real fight until he hit the nw and even then he only needed 2-3 punches to end it.

I know crocodile said he normally dodges attacks, but crocodile uses 2 one hit kill attacks....of course wb is dodging crocodile's attacks.

Also ace was very young and weak when he fought wb. And most of wb's interactions with ace werent so much dodging as they were preemptive attacks.

Edited by captain kidd, 27 November 2017 - 09:44 AM.

 
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#33 capu

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 02:45 PM


i would be a rich man

I wish u good fortune then ;)

 

 

 


2- from a story telling perspective it works great as foreshadowing his death.

Everyone knew that WB wont win that war beforehand, thus there is no need to forshadow it like u propose for the reason u presented, since the marines being defeated for good at around 45% of the story was clear not to happen. 

 

 

 


3- Pride. Have you ever seen a beautiful woman defend her beauty, even though everyone knows she is hot? Have you ever seen a strong man defend his inabiliy to lift something? Just because someone is at the top of their game doesnt mean they wont justify their failure. Even if the excuse is reasonable and obvious pride will still force them to make it known to all or even just yourself.

I have 2older sisters i learned early on to shutdown the listening abilty if woman go that way.

 

 

 


Wow there, gunshots and swords havent been shown to be stoppable by haki.

CoA is partly armor, armor grants u protection vs. knifes etc. Luffy did not say he cant protect vs. Hodis teeth either, thus against cutting properties, he said his haki aint strong enough to do so currently!

If CoA thus can protect u from teeth, ergo cutting properties, it sure as hell can protect u from knifes/swords and ergo it should also protect u against bullets, since bullets actually are blunt, concentrated, penetrating hits, not that much different from a knife stabbing u, biggest difference is the velocity and the small area the bullet hits, thus the big force unleashed on a small spot!

 

 

 


And we may not know the names of those marines who attacked wb, but we do know boo had haki, and the marines in mf were all high ranking and the strongest they had.

The strongest man alivestill should be unhurtable by fodder, and we all know that 90% VAs are fodder! Sabo one shotted a marine VA, and hesure as hell aint anywhere near the strongest person alive! He is only a commander lvl of sorts, not yonkou lvl!

 

 

 


Also, it is possible wb always soaked up damage the way he did in mf, what made him a monster wasnt the fact swords and bullets bounced off him, but the fact he (like luffy) could take a ton of attacks and keep comming.

While true most of said attacks should have NO effect on the strongest man alive. BM who aint strongest is unaffected by bullets as well, even coming from BEge, who certainly is superior to most fodder VAs, who got one shot by preTS Luffy!, and she should not be physically superior to one of only 2 people there are who were said to be equals to GR, much less ifsaid person is said to be the strongest!

U expect current Usoop who probably is the same lvl then some weaker Headquarter VAs to penetrate Kaidous haki?

 

 


If taking damage made someone not emperor material, BB, who takes more damage then anyone, wouldnt be allowed anywhere near the throne.

Why? Marco can take any damage as well and be unaffected, he aint yonkou either!

 

 

 


As with df abilities we also have no clue if haki increases the damage they do.

 

 

 


So wb who fought with a sword and a df, wouldnt have the need for much haki aside from the minium needed to touch logia.

It might not increase the power of a DF ability, but it sure as hell increases the overall power of the attack itself which WBs stabs even when empowered with DF were. Thats how  it works or why do u think Luffy imbues nearly all attacks with haki now, even when fighting DD, thus someone he does not even need haki to hit for.....

 

 

 


Either WB compeletly revamped his fighting style in his old age, or it is possible that has been how he always fought.

So not using CoC to instantly take out a third of the marine forces likeLuffy did right at the beginning was the smart move of WB then? He was said to have it, yet did not use it to the extend fodder Luffy did! If he aint even capable of that then how did his underlings even know he had it in the first place?

 

 

 


So be careful talking about wb not dodging and not blocking, for all we know he never did those things.

Absolutely unlikely with like 100%

He had onlyfew scars before, yet u saw what he received inMF, surely that alone would have left far more scars than anything we saw him receive previouly. U wanna tell me neither GR nor Garp were able to scar him like that, yet fodder marines were? U saw the wound Squardo gave him, u wanna tell me that would have left no wound/scar?Squardo for another 100% aint anywhere close to GR or GArp, he himself admitted it way a miracle to have gotten that attack through! Squardo explicitely tells us that shouldnot have been possible!!!

Marco tells us that too, even though when going in the direction that WB should have been able to evade, if he had still CoO that is, which in MF sadly he did not any longer. 

 

 

 


I know crocodile said he normally dodges attacks, but crocodile uses 2 one hit kill attacks....of course wb is dodging crocodile's attacks.

Which WB sure did not know before facing him. U wanna tell me everyone with an unknown skill in his DF gets 1 free hit from WB, then WB would have been dead ages ago!!!!

 

 

 


Also ace was very young and weak when he fought wb.

WBs CoO was enough to counterattack Ace while sleeping, yet against squardo it was not enough to evade someone awake,someone most likely far lower lvl than Ace with flamefruit....


Edited by capu, 28 November 2017 - 03:35 PM.


#34 captain kidd

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 09:13 AM

You have to admit oda is really bad at explaining obvious or unimportant stuff to us readers. But we can rest easy knowing he at least will never be as bad as kishi..... as jarya fought pain my first thought was "oh cool pupet master jutsu" after 20 damn chapters of the smartest in naruto investigating finally they came to some similar conclusion.....

Seriously? Well i am going to admit something humiliating, i didnt for a second think wb was going to lose or die until half way through the war. I obviously didnt think wb was going to leave the marines in a smoldering heep of debris, but i thought he would be able to get in there grab ace and run away.
My main belife for this was 1st off op stroy structure (i cant believe the 1st major death was ace) and mainly the civilian reaction to the war. Everyone was freaked out "wow the wg is picking a fight with wb?!?!" "Why would the wg do such a thing?!" "This is crazy it cant be real" well..... seeing how one sides the wb vs wg fight was...... what in earth were those civilians concerned about? Hell if i remeber correct some of those comments came from actual pirates who should know better. Those comments made it seem like the wg was getting involved in something crazy they may not win. The correct responses are
"oh look, the wg is positioning to take out the wb crew"
"looks like the wg has a trap set for old man wb"
"i wonder if wb would even dare attack the wg"
Oh and if you want to talk really far back, in ID there was a part of me that thought there may not even be a wb war (small part of me) i thought maybe luffy would save ace and escape id leaving wb (the strongest pirate) for a much later arc.


I always thought it was so weird, beautiful women get their feelings hurt when someone comments on their looks. Espicaly since most looks can be changed so easily.


Now that we know haki is a finite resource, why would wb waste his haki reserves on worthless attacks? Wb needs his haki to block admiral attacks not knifes he knows wont kill him. Also if he uses too much haki he might not even be able to touch the admirals, that is unacceptable in the war.

Like i said, juat because wb has the over all title doesnt mean he excells in all areas. If what you are saying is true then BB would be incapable of ever becoming the strongest since he will always take a ton of pain, even if he can lift a battle ship above his head and smash mountains he will never be the strongest? Luffy from day one was immune to bullets buggy to slashing attacks, does that mean they are both stronger then wb? I need to keep bringing this up, wb can split islands, it doesn't matter how tough bm's skin is, she is not going to take more then 3-4 attacks from wb.

Leave the va alone they are strong in their own right. Sabo toyed around with burgess but lost badly to fuji so he is somewhere above commander and below admiral he is strong, i wouldnt put va anywhere near that. Vergo was overconfident and mynard was "young". Giants are fodder so if 90% va are giants i will conceed this point. I wouod argue the best va are around commander level, i dont think you could tell me bastile did much worse then burgess did.

The bb comaprison shows wb taking alot of damage doesnt mean he isnt an emperor or strongest man material. Your marco point just further proves just because kiadou and bm dont take damage doesnt mean someone who does isnt emperor level. Marco prves even if you take no damage that doesnt garentee emperor level.

That isnt correct. Zoro made it very clear the ONLY thing haki on a blade does (aside from touching logia) is protect the blade. Haki is armor, putting a metal glove on you fist will make the fist hurt who ever you punch alot more. Putting a metal glove on a kinfe will severly weaken the knife's ability to cut.
Luffy uses haki in every single serious move because haki works great for his fighting style. Someone like nami.....probably will never use haki.
Like wise, adding haki to an earth quake, as of now, is ridiclous, fit wont increase the earth quake's.....quake... and as zoro said adding haki to WB's spear will only stop his spear from chipping. Unless wb drops his spear, stops using quakes, and for some reason starts punching people, there is no reason for wb to have god levels of haki, it wouldnt aid his fighting stlye.
The same can be said about aokiji and kizaru. They dont need god level coa because one freezes people and the other shoots lasers that explode. Although kizaru's kicks could stand to gain.
If you think about it in the op world it is confusing but if you think about it in the real world it makes sense- think if it this way- in the UFC mastering muy tai would greatly improve someone's striking game. So why doesnt everyone has a mastery of muy tai? Because everyone fights differently. They all have their own style, some excell at their ground game and fight only to make you tap out, others use a boxing style of striking. They all have what works for them and learning more, while it couldnt hurt them, it wouldnt be the most efficent use of their time.
I mean, as luffy taught us two chapters ago, swords are awesome, they can cut through candy walls when g3 cant. So why doesnt everyone in op have sword knowledge? It doesnt help their fighting stlye.
Hell the same can be said about marco, the guy apperently fights by using his feet to slash....maybe not.... but if that is how he fights he wouldnt need haki either, haki only protects blades in cutting attacks and marco heals his "blades" whrn they get damaged.
If you really think about it. Saying a man who can split islands with his df,needs better haki, is like saying steven hawkin needs to improve his knowledge of 18th century histroy.
Hawkin "i just aolved the information paradox in black holes"
Me "ya but if you were really inteligent you would be able to tell me what 1700s english scolar wrote 'a modest proposal'"

Who says he could? Rey couldnt take out fodder bepo or that random hat guy in law's crew...... are you really trying to tell me the best of the best marines who were called in arent above bepo level? Not to mention the feat you refrence the 50,000 in FI. How did luffy only take out 50k? Seriosuly, was 50,000 10 year old children who learned how to fight yesterday? And 50,000 were franky level gods? Half hodi's army was leagues above the other half?
Obviously there is an extremely low cut off for who is effected by coc. Lets not forget disco and usopp were also uneffected by rey's coc. I think i can say for certain the distance between rey and disco is at least the distance between wb and the strongest fodder marines.

Well as you can tell from the adventures of our main characters, scars in op only happen from the most sever of cases. If zoro and luffy got a scar every place they were touched they would look like zombies. Crocodile put a hook through luffy's heart and he made no scar. The fact wb has so may scars proves how many hits he really had to take for a wound to be deep enough to get those.
Also garp fights with his fists he probably isnt leaving too many scars.


Unknown? Do you think crocodile had no name at all when he attacked wb or so you think wb doesnt hear the news? Also we have no clue how wb came across crocodile, maybe it was the same exact situation as when ace attacked wb. Maybe corocidle had a massive fight with wb's crew, clearly demonatraiting his powers.

Says who? Like i said ace was young and much weaker, hell he even attacked with an axe one of those times. Squardo is a seasoned nw captain who fought roger (and lost badly) for all we know he coud be much faster then ace was back then. Not to mentiom ace was very angry and as all trolla will tell you, anger makes people slopy.
And as i have said, wb didnt dodge ace, every single time wb counter attacked ace. We havent ever seen wb try to dodge an attack except akainu going for his head and even then wb only managed to half dodge it.

Oh and before you say ace fought with jimbe. That isnt any indication of ace's speed, we dont know how that fight went doen either.
 
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#35 Sesshoumaru

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 05:35 PM

That's not what we know. What we know is Luffy said his Haki wasn't good enough yet. SO the problem is the user's proficiency, not that sharp attack automatically is better than blunt attack against Hardening/CoA.

 

Yes, it wasn't good enough to block Hody's sharp attacks when it had zero difficulty blocking Hody's blunt attacks. Now you could say it's because Hody's bite also has more power or he has more skill in biting than in punching, but that would be utter speculation. A cutting attack, of same skill/power/Haki, will always have an easier time breaking through Haki than the equivalent punch. Had Luffy been a swordsman, for example, he might have been able to cut through Cracker's armor without using his ultimate form (G4).

 

 


Bingo! So you do understand proficiency matters. There's no such thing as swords are more likely to cut through. You have to judge on individual basis. So the fact that Vista uses swords means nothing. The real question is his CoA level and swordsmanship level which we know next to nothing about. Yeah, he's not losing to Mihawk in a short amount of time but what does that prove? At best it means he's much stronger than Vice Admirals and that's only under the assumption that Mihawk is stronger than Sabo. That says zero about him vs Cracker.

It doesn't prove anything, sure, but fighting Mihawk to some kind of a stand still is a very impressive feat, at least if you think Mihawk to be admiral level like most fans do.

And since Mihawk taught Zoro in CoA (and Zoro is pretty capable with it, so Mihawk should have high level CoA as well) it can be used as evidence for Vista's Haki proficiency. Is it enough to beat Cracker? Don't know. As you pointed out, we can't know (yet), but if Luffy can break through his biscuits, a top level Swordsman should not have troubles to do so too, IMO, since even if Vista had a bit less skill or a bit less physical strength or a bit weaker CoA than Luffy, all of which is debatable, the cutting nature of his attacks would compensate for this.

The difference then between Luffy and Vista would be that Vista wouldn't lose all his power after half an hour like Luffy, and in close combat, he would stomp Cracker's pseudo-swordsmanship any day.

 

 

 


More to offer? As in they didn't do their best to save Ace?

No, as in Oda didn't show us the moments where they really went all out. I mean, what did Marco accomplish? Sending a midair Kizaru flying. As far as we can tell, a well placed Elephant Gun of Luffy could have done the same. If I went by feats, I am honestly more impressed by Cracker than with Marco. But what kind of bullshit would it be, when the first mate of the strongest Yonkou is weaker than all the commanders of Big Mom? Would be a joke. Alone from a story point of view, we should get better feats in the future.


Edited by Sesshoumaru, 30 November 2017 - 05:39 PM.


#36 D.Hyuga

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 06:29 PM


No, as in Oda didn't show us the moments where they really went all out. I mean, what did Marco accomplish? Sending a midair Kizaru flying. As far as we can tell, a well placed Elephant Gun of Luffy could have done the same. If I went by feats, I am honestly more impressed by Cracker than with Marco. But what kind of bullshit would it be, when the first mate of the strongest Yonkou is weaker than all the commanders of Big Mom? Would be a joke. Alone from a story point of view, we should get better feats in the future.

 

It wouldn't, WB pirates were obsolete group that didn't keep up with time.

Their main(and only) real asset was WB, commanders were lackluster, allies couldn't even handle  PX platoon.

Problem with WB pirates was not that they had hype, problem was that they actually believed in it. Like Ace going on BB pirates all by himself. And then lost 1on1  to BB badly. If Ace had gone for BB pirates together with Marco and Jozu and Vista, they could have beaten BB pirates. Maybe.



#37 capu

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 07:04 PM


Like Ace going on BB pirates all by himself.

Ye that was dumb.

 

 

 


If Ace had gone for BB pirates together with Marco and Jozu and Vista, they could have beaten BB pirates. Maybe.

Lol.

All of BBs crewmates were fodder to Ace! Ace alone would surely have beaten them all mid diff at best, rather small diff imo. Only BB was too much for him.

Thus imo Ace+Marco or Ace+Jozu would have sufficed, simply not Ace alone.

BB himself at Banaro island was way weaker than he is now, let alone before he got the Gura.-Gura no me. Ace was able toharm him, BBs biggest attack was on the same scale, even though possibly still a bit more destruitve, Marco with his regen abilty simply needs to keep his distance for a few secs in which Ace fights for him and he is a 100% fresh, there is no way the BBpirates at Banaro island would have stood achance vs MArco+Ace.


Edited by capu, 30 November 2017 - 07:10 PM.


#38 Fulmine

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 07:13 PM


Yes, it wasn't good enough to block Hody's sharp attacks when it had zero difficulty blocking Hody's blunt attacks. Now you could say it's because Hody's bite also has more power or he has more skill in biting than in punching, but that would be utter speculation.

Utter? When an attack can do something another attack can't, provided that they are of the same type (in this case, straightforward physical blows) and from the same person and there's no other special factor (like DF interaction, eg: Luffy's rubber punch hitting Enel's lightning body), the most reasonable conclusion is either the former is stronger than the latter or there's physics applied (pressure). It's not like I did rocket logic.

 

Also even if it's utter speculation there's no evidence against it, either. So why reject it?

 

 


A cutting attack, of same skill/power/Haki, will always have an easier time breaking through Haki than the equivalent punch.

Once again, you know it needs to be ''same skill/power/Haki''. And Vista is the same as...? For you to say his swords attacks would have easier time against Cracker you have to prove he's as strong as someone who is capable of breaking Cracker's defense, in this case G4 and you can't.

 

 


Had Luffy been a swordsman, for example, he might have been able to cut through Cracker's armor without using his ultimate form (G4).

Yeah, might have been. Still, doesn't prove Vista can. Unless you have a way to compare Vista and G4, all is for naught.

 

 


but fighting Mihawk to some kind of a stand still is a very impressive feat, at least if you think Mihawk to be admiral level like most fans do.

G3Luffy fought Fujitora, too. You may tell me ''but Fujitora wasn't going all-out'' and I tell you ''Mihawk may have done the same vs Vista''

 

 


and Zoro is pretty capable with it

He's capable than Pica, I guess but that's all.

 

 


it can be used as evidence for Vista's Haki proficiency

Not really. What if both didn't use CoA in that clash? Luffy sometimes doesn't use CoA if he's not in serious enough situation.

 

 


but if Luffy can break through his biscuits, a top level Swordsman should not have troubles to do so too, IMO, since even if Vista had a bit less skill or a bit less physical strength or a bit weaker CoA than Luffy, all of which is debatable, the cutting nature of his attacks would compensate for this.

If Vista is comparable to G4, yeah. Something very questionable given how all we have going for him is being equal to casual Mihawk, who in turn may or may not be equal to Admirals and even if he is, we have G3's being able to fight non-serious Fujitora. So all in all, your conclusion of Vista's CoA has a super shaky basis.

 

 


But what kind of bullshit would it be, when the first mate of the strongest Yonkou is weaker than all the commanders of Big Mom? Would be a joke.

Not really, if WB is strong enough to compensate for that. And we don't know if Marco is the strongest from WB's side so...


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#39 D.Hyuga

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 07:02 AM


All of BBs crewmates were fodder to Ace! Ace alone would surely have beaten them all mid diff at best, rather small diff imo. Only BB was too much for him.

Thus imo Ace+Marco or Ace+Jozu would have sufficed, simply not Ace alone.

BB himself at Banaro island was way weaker than he is now, let alone before he got the Gura.-Gura no me. Ace was able toharm him, BBs biggest attack was on the same scale, even though possibly still a bit more destruitve, Marco with his regen abilty simply needs to keep his distance for a few secs in which Ace fights for him and he is a 100% fresh, there is no way the BBpirates at Banaro island would have stood achance vs MArco+Ace.

 

Ace and Marco rely too much on their fruits, BB's fruit would cancel them, and then Auger would be enough for them. My guess is that Jesus is the weakest of them all. With Laffite being the strongest of original crew.



#40 captain kidd

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:07 AM

I mean to be fair..... none of them had haki.

If it wasnt for a weird quirk of bb's df ace would of won.

BB "hahahahaha i did it ace, i have the most powerful df in all of OP! Watch the power of the gravity fruit! I will now call down a metor to kill you!!!"

See? Slightly different df and bb is dead.
 
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