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[Discussion] Power Levels (Part 4)


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#41 D.Hyuga

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 05:24 PM


I mean to be fair..... none of them had haki.

 

They all had haki, they were not some rookies. Oda just didn't spam it as he is doing it post time skip.



#42 Fulmine

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:30 PM

They all had haki

Evidence?

 

Unless Ace did what Katakuri does, Van Auger's bullets' passing through him means no CoA.

 


they were not some rookies.

That's not good reason. Croc is no rookie. Arlong is no rookie (he sailed in NW with Jinbe and Tiger).

 

Besides, BB gathered them after leaving WB and somehow started from Drum Islands (or even closer to twin cape). Chance is they are rookies, just old (nothing weird. Bege and Urouge were in their 40s when becoming Supernova)


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#43 D.Hyuga

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 06:45 PM


That's not good reason. Croc is no rookie. Arlong is no rookie (he sailed in NW with Jinbe and Tiger).

 

Croc and Arlong and Moria and etc plot-vise shown no haki. There was enough of plot bs in the way they lost, that if they used haki no lv of plot bs would enough for Luffy to win. So mc of this story would have died in AP.

Luckily Oda has an excuse, haki=will, so Croc and Moria had low will at the time(defeated by their respected yonko), ergo low/no haki. Arlong was also bad in that department, he led fishman scrubs and he obvously had inferiority complex.

 

 

Or there was no haki at the time in Oda's head, which is most likely.

 

BB obviously had his created while being part of WB pirates, you don't think that he just picked them in short amount of time.

Also we know that at least Laffite is known to marine's tops.

 

So I guess that at the time of SA(when coa was introduced) and MF all major characters  had and used haki.


 

 

 


Unless Ace did what Katakuri does, Van Auger's bullets' passing through him means no CoA.

 

I guess that WB pirates also lack haki, including WB too :rolleyes:

Since 'unless admirals did what Katakuri does, WB pirates attack passing through them means no CoA'


Edited by D.Hyuga, 02 December 2017 - 06:48 PM.


#44 Fulmine

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 11:56 PM


Croc and Arlong and Moria and etc plot-vise shown no haki. There was enough of plot bs in the way they lost, that if they used haki no lv of plot bs would enough for Luffy to win. So mc of this story would have died in AP.

Luckily Oda has an excuse, haki=will, so Croc and Moria had low will at the time(defeated by their respected yonko), ergo low/no haki. Arlong was also bad in that department, he led fishman scrubs and he obvously had inferiority complex.

And you just give one reason yourself why non-rookies/veterans may not have Haki. Thanks for supporting my argument... :mellow: That's exactly why I mentioned Croc and Arlong...

So should you ask yourself what if BB's crew (the original 4) is the same case? We know nothing about their background and how BB gathered them. For all we know they may have been like Croc or Arlong (more like Arlong since they don't seem to be famous like Croc).

 

Or, it is as simple as the possibility that I said


Chance is they are rookies, just old (nothing weird. Bege and Urouge were in their 40s when becoming Supernova)

 

So you still have to give me actual evidence they have Haki to prove your statement/stance. Talking about how others don't have it due to plot or whatever isn't evidence. It's just you dodging your responsibility to give proof.

 

 


Or there was no haki at the time in Oda's head, which is most likely.

''Most likely''? I'm not saying it's impossible but I think it's ''very unlikely''

 

-By that time Oda already showed Mantra/CoO and CoC.

-He also had made 5 Logia prior. Chance is he did think of CoA, unless he planned to have Luffy and other characters who will fight Logia in the story find out their individual weakness every damn time, which is hard to believe given how Croc's weakness isn't even known when he's super fmaous as a Shichibukai.

-In the Ace vs BB fight, Ace was completely relaxed when BB announced he was a Logia (which means he has a way to deal with it). Later when he burnt BB with his firefly technique, he even said ''if you are Logia an attack like this shouldn't hurt you''

 

There's no concrete evidence like a dialogue that outright mentioned CoA but I think most of the hints show that oda should have a pretty good idea of CoA at the time already.

 

 


BB obviously had his created while being part of WB pirates, you don't think that he just picked them in short amount of time.

Except that Luffy managed to gather the same amount of members (4: Zolo, Nami, Usopp and Sanji) in short amount of time. So why not BB? Again, you don't have any evidence. You just speak based on your feeling...

 

And btw, where did you get the ''short amount of time''? We don't know exactly when BB betrayed WB. For all we know, Ace had been chasing him for a year or so...

 

 


Also we know that at least Laffite is known to marine's tops.

Because he used to be an officer and famous for being cruel. I don't see how that helps your argument that BB gathered them while he was with WB. It's not like it was specifically noted it took him long to have that fame and even so, that doesn't mean he knew BB for long

 

 


So I guess that at the time of SA(when coa was introduced) and MF all major characters had and used haki.

And somehow Luffy the main character didn't have it... in MF, BB is the only major character from BB pirates. The others are pretty much average in the context of the war. Only the newly joined Shiliew and level 6 prisoners are big players.

 

And this discussion is about when Ace vs BB pirates. Why did you change it to MFWar which is like 130 chapters later? :laugh:

 

 


I guess that WB pirates also lack haki, including WB too :rolleyes:

Since 'unless admirals did what Katakuri does, WB pirates attack passing through them means no CoA'

First of all, you're shifting the burden of proof. You said they had Haki, so you have to prove it yourself. Throwing back what I said doesn't help your argument. It's just fallacy.

Besides, notice that I never said they didn't have Haki like captain kidd. I'm just saying your logic for saying they have Haki is completely weak/wrong. What I attacked is your reasoning, not your conclusion (though it's not like I agree with you either since I see no evidence they had Haki at the time which is why I'm asking you to give one and you haven't done anything other than dodging that).

 

 

Second, I'm just trying to say when an attack passing through a logia, it's pretty telling of CoA-lessness, though yes, not absolute proof. So you still have to prove it yourself, that Ace did what Katakuri does. And hell, let say Ace really did what Katakuri does, that still doesn't prove Van Auger had Haki. All that proves is Ace had CoO or fast reaction and good manipulation of his Logia body to make holes or that he's a careful guy who dodges when he doesn't know whether the opponent has coA or not.

 

 

Finally, in WB pirates' case, we actually see WB, Marco, Jozu and Vista touching Admirals (without exploiting their individual weaknesses) and Akainu even said they are Haki users. That's what concrete evidence is. So not a good comparison. As for the other unnamed WB pirate fodders, who knows, maybe they really had no CoA...


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#45 captain kidd

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:58 AM

They all had haki, they were not some rookies. Oda just didn't spam it as he is doing it post time skip.


Not only is your haki assumption wrong. But your them not being rookies assumption is wrong.....

1st one is what a rookie is, look at capone, he was an acomplished 40 year old mobster turned pirate, he was considered a rookie. Meaning at the very least, the former sherif turned pirate on BB's crew is a rookie, and it is likely all 4 of them were rookies. BB obviously isnt.

2nd you cant just say nonsense like that. We have no clue if they had haki. Haki should of allowed auger to injure ace and prevented Burgess's house from burning up as easy as a normal house. All evidence points to no haki and zero evidence points to even a hint they have any. We might as well assume enel has coa and just never felt the need to use it against luffy....
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#46 D.Hyuga

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 11:25 AM


1st one is what a rookie is, look at capone, he was an acomplished 40 year old mobster turned pirate, he was considered a rookie. Meaning at the very least, the former sherif turned pirate on BB's crew is a rookie, and it is likely all 4 of them were rookies. BB obviously isnt.

 

So Kuzan is rookie now?



#47 captain kidd

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 11:39 AM

So Kuzan is rookie now?


Ya

If you go from being a police officer to a burglar you still start out as a rookie....

Although he has been at it for a year and a half so probably not anymore.
 
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#48 D.Hyuga

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 11:44 AM


2nd you cant just say nonsense like that. We have no clue if they had haki. Haki should of allowed auger to injure ace

 

We have seen in MF that it depends on lv of haki, fighting against logia that has stronger haki than you is like fighting with no haki.

With introduction of CoA, Oda has moved to reiatsu land.

 

And this whole discussion was about BB pirates fighting Ace, Marco, Jozu and Vista pre-MF, and who would won.

Some said that since BB crewmen didn't have haki, they would lost. But haki or not, BB's df would cancel fruits, and WB commanders would be forced in fruitless fight, where classic skills would prevail. So BB cancels Ace df, and then what happ when Auger snipes Ace. No constant logia for Ace, no constant healing for Marco, and no constant diamond form for Jozu. Only Vista would be unaffected by BB's fruit.

 

So could BB, Auger, Laffite, Jesus, Doc and Stronger won against Ace, Marco, Jozu and Vista pre MF?



#49 captain kidd

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:19 PM

We have seen in MF that it depends on lv of haki, fighting against logia that has stronger haki than you is like fighting with no haki.
With introduction of CoA, Oda has moved to reiatsu land.

And this whole discussion was about BB pirates fighting Ace, Marco, Jozu and Vista pre-MF, and who would won.
Some said that since BB crewmen didn't have haki, they would lost. But haki or not, BB's df would cancel fruits, and WB commanders would be forced in fruitless fight, where classic skills would prevail. So BB cancels Ace df, and then what happ when Auger snipes Ace. No constant logia for Ace, no constant healing for Marco, and no constant diamond form for Jozu. Only Vista would be unaffected by BB's fruit.

So could BB, Auger, Laffite, Jesus, Doc and Stronger won against Ace, Marco, Jozu and Vista pre MF?


No we havent seen that either. We have seen wb, in the begining of the fight when he likley used no haki so far, incapable of harming aokiji, then at the end of the fight, after he has used tons of haki, harmed akainu. Marco and vista were incapable of harming akainu, yet jozu harmed aokiji....
there is once again zero evidence to support any of that having anything to do with haki.
From day one i said they were opening holes in their body to allow the attacks to pass through, recently dogtooth confirma that is a way to avoide haki so it looks like i was probably right as opposed to this insane "haki vs haki" theory
 
Oh right the rest of the commnet.


Ya it was me. We were talking about the inteligence of ace going after BB, I said if BB'S df didnt have that extremely weird ability to touch logia, all of BB's crew and he would of been killed effortlessly by ace.

Also BB'S fruit needs to have BB touching the df user to work.... so van auger isnt sniping anyone unless he is shooting marco out of BB'S hands.


No i dont think BB'S old crew had a prayer of a chance against WB'S top 4 commanders. In the time it took ace to lose to BB marco jozu and vista could take out BB'S crew. Making it a 3 on one for BB'S life. He only has 2 hands..... dont see how he could win.

Dont forget BB told burgess and auger to get back because they dont stand a chance against ace. So it stands to reason they dont stand a chance against marco and jozu either.
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#50 D.Hyuga

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 04:26 PM


From day one i said they were opening holes in their body to allow the attacks to pass through, recently dogtooth confirma that is a way to avoide haki so it looks like i was probably right as opposed to this insane "haki vs haki" theory

 

Katakuri is not logia!



#51 Jekkusormi

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 03:39 AM

Katakuri is not logia!

He is "special paramecia", which happens to function exactly like logia. Logias are composed of natural elements so if a df user can transform into a substance, which is not natural element, he is special paramecia (atleast that's my take to it). And even if my take for the matter is wrong, Luffy stated he needed haki to harm Katakuri
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#52 captain kidd

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 08:03 AM

Katakuri is not logia!


That has nothing to do with anything i said...... he can be a zoan for all i care.

Dogtooth proves- if someone can change the shape of their body they can dodge attacks.
Logia can also change the shape of their body.
Put two and two together.....
 
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#53 Fulmine

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 01:33 PM


I would agree with that if there was an argument that showed Katakuri's CoO was necessary for that prevention, but there isn't.

I wouldn't say it's impossible without CoO but I think using CoO is advantageous and much more effective, enough to make my point. Without it maybe Katakuri would only prevent G4 1-2 times out of 10 matches with his speed.

 

 


Doflamingo could have arguably prevented Luffy powering up by using his DF awakening, but he just watched and let it happen, even though he knew it was going to happen.

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/784/5

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/784/6

That's the first time the technique is introduced. For us readers' sake, for demonstration and explanation's sake, Oda should do it like that. When Luffy used G4 the second time he was controlled by DD and it happened in 1 panel...then when he fought Cracker and BM...And DD was underestimating because he stomped Luffy. Unlike Katakuri who couldn't get a hit cause Luffy is so nimble his CoO is for naught :lol: Seriously, Katakuri clearly saw in advance Luffy would say G4 and that's what tipped him off. If his CoO was not that good even if he realized a power-up was coming his intervention may not have been fast enough and Luffy would have broken out like he did DD's threads.

 

 


Also, while Katakuri did anticipate G4, because he anticipates everything, he also called the power-up obvious:

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/883/4

Nowhere it is implied that one requires a special kind of intuition for this.

Obviousness doesn't mean prevent-ableness.

And well, because he saw it with CoO. If he didn't see it in the first place he wouldn't even know if it was obvious or not...

Btw, MS translation sounds a bit complicated. Jaimini's is like this

https://jaiminisbox....en/0/883/page/4

 

 


That's not relevant. It was asserted that G4 can handle everything that Katakuri has (aside from CoO) and my point was that we are not in a position to know that just yet. We have very little evidence, and on the basis of that evidence, I would give G4 the edge, but we have no reason to think the evidence we have is representative of what a fight between G4 and Katakuri with awakening but no CoO would be like.

Note that I'm not saying that G4 can't handle everything Katakuri has. (I actually think it can.) I'm simply saying it's too early to tell.

If he had no CoO then he probably would have focused his effort into other fighting skills and indeed, maybe he would have had stronger base stats and CoA and DF mastery. That's true. But he does have CoO and his other stats are currently as they are so...Like I said


Before, he had no problem going toe to toe with G2/3 (overpowering Elephant Gun last time and again in this latest chapter) but did he do that vs G4? No. He used his CoO to predict then punched G4's arm from the side (I don't need to explain how that is different from going head-to-head) and grew donut to attack Luffy from behind. It's clear he deems G4's sheer power would beat him in a head-on close combat (including Awakening Donut and Strength Mochi) and that's why he had to use CoO.



And like I said, a guy who has CoO good enough to predict where the opponent would dodge to and still can't hit has next to nothing to speak about speed (in relation to that same opponent). Cracker low-diffed G2/3 and forced Luffy into G4 quite fast and an injured DD also made Luffy go G4 first. Only AFTER G4 did DD decide to use Awakening. Katakuri though? Unable to hit Base/G2/G3 he was forced to use Awakening first to immobilize Luffy and only then did Luffy feel the need to use G4. It's clear that Katakuri has something to brag about never having his back touch the ground and whatnot with CoO but otherwise he's nothing better than DD or Cracker from what we have seen. There's no evidence G4 is faster than G2 by default but at least in that one move where G4 blitzed DD, it is. If Luffy did that to DD then he could do that to Katakuri and we have seen how Katakuri is pummeled once he got hit by G4. CoO is his saving grace and claim to fame, period.



Cracker never showed any hint he could dodge G4. He put up defense line before Luffy punch him and hide behind it. It's like wearing an armor, getting hit by a bullet then claiming you probably can dodge it...

DD dodged G4 for sure, actually he even blitzed it, but who said Katakuri should be scaled off him? Are you just assuming Katakuri should be as strong to begin with when you have to prove that?

And in the end DD still got Leo Bazooka despite utilizing Awakening to the max (something Katakuri has not shown except for that burying Luffy moment)...so at best if you compare him to DD Katakuri still gets hit and it would continue from there the same way we saw

A guy like that can beat G4? I don't think so...

 

 


I wasn't arguing that. I was trying to explain that CoO isn't the only important advantage Katakuri has over Luffy.

The whole point is without CoO what can Katakuri achieve? If you don't argue his advantages can materialize into something without CoO then there's no point replying to Sesshoumaru at all because that's essentially what he said: without CoO Katakuri was sent flying by Luffy. What does being faster than G2 (not even true by feats) and stronger than G3 help with fighitng G4? That's like saying ''hey, that guy is faster and stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku.''. Well, there are SS3, Super Saiyan God, Blue blah blah. That's no advantage against Goku at all. Real advantage would be ''wow, Goku used his best form possible and that guy is still faster''. Now that's an actual advantage. And the only equivalent thing Katakuri has vs G4 is CoO.


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#54 Tale

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 07:20 AM


The whole point is without CoO what can Katakuri achieve? If you don't argue his advantages can materialize into something without CoO then there's no point replying to Sesshoumaru at all because that's essentially what he said: without CoO Katakuri was sent flying by Luffy. What does being faster than G2 (not even true by feats) and stronger than G3 help with fighitng G4? That's like saying ''hey, that guy is faster and stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku.''. Well, there are SS3, Super Saiyan God, Blue blah blah. That's no advantage against Goku at all. Real advantage would be ''wow, Goku used his best form possible and that guy is still faster''. Now that's an actual advantage. And the only equivalent thing Katakuri has vs G4 is CoO.

 

What I understand by "real advantage", which are the words Sesshoumaru used, is something that's indispensable to a character vs their opponent. Katakuri's CoO isn't the only thing that meets that qualification. You can easily ask "Without his Mochi DF what can Katakuri achieve?" If you're correct about Katakuri's speed, then then his awakened DF is just as important as his Coo when it comes to preventing Luffy from going G4 and outlasting G4 Luffy.

 

Similarly, the fact that he has an edge over G2/3 Luffy is an important advantage, because he can perform at a higher level than Luffy can for most of the fight. Luffy can't constantly fight in G4 and it hasn't been demonstrated that Katakuri would lose to G4 without his CoO. I acknowledge that at that point, given what we know (which isn't everything that might relevant), Luffy would have a definite edge, but a definite edge isn't equivalent to a victory. Suppose Katakuri can stall Luffy's G4 the same way Doffy did? He'd still be able to win, because he's stronger than Luffy outside G4. That's important as well. :shrug:

 

 

 

That's the first time the technique is introduced.

 

It's also how the technique works. The same thing happened when Katakuri prevented it. It takes some time for Luffy to inflate himself.

It doesn't matter if he did in one panel against Doflamingo. That's not a measure of time and we don't actually see the action of Luffy blowing air into himself, we only see the result. That doesn't mean it happened instantly.

It's the same in the clash with Big Mom. We only see the result. That doesn't mean the period of time Luffy usually takes to blow air into himself was skipped.

 

 

Obviousness doesn't mean prevent-ableness.

And well, because he saw it with CoO. If he didn't see it in the first place he wouldn't even know if it was obvious or not...

Btw, MS translation sounds a bit complicated. Jaimini's is like this

https://jaiminisbox....en/0/883/page/4

 

Fair enough. MS translation leaves a bit to be desired.

 

 

 

Unable to hit Base/G2/G3 he was forced to use Awakening first to immobilize Luffy and only then did Luffy feel the need to use G4. It's clear that Katakuri has something to brag about never having his back touch the ground and whatnot with CoO but otherwise he's nothing better than DD or Cracker from what we have seen. 

 

You're ignoring the whole point Oda was trying to make in Chapter 879. He first had Katakuri demonstrate that he had better versions of Luffy's moves.

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/14

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/15

Then Katakuri asserted he was superior in power and speed to Luffy and Oda had him demonstrate both of those things:

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/16

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/17

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/18

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/19

That's the one of the few times Katakuri dodged an attack without reshaping his body. He was making the point that he is faster than Luffy and we can see that he could dodge G2 and G2 couldn't dodge him. He may not be so fast that he can consistently hit Luffy, but it can't be made more obvious that he has an edge. 

He was also faster than Luffy here and at that point Luffy was still much faster than people like Amande:

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/885/9

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/885/14

Here's another one. Luffy attacked, Katakuri dodged behind him and before Luffy has even recovered from his attack he was preparing his mochi donuts:

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/891/7

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/891/8

Luffy was still being punched there when Katakuri was about to kick him again. It's not just CoO, he's also very fast.

 

Also, why are you saying he was forced to use Awakening? He was perfectly capable of hitting a distracted Luffy without it, so why think it was necessary to use it here? 

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/881/16

A different question here for the below. He was getting dodged, yes, but does that mean that as time went on his edge in speed wouldn't have been costly for Luffy? The way I see it, Katakuri was just being efficient when he used awakening. Remember that he wanted to finish Luffy off as soon as possible at the time because of this.

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/882/14

If you think it was necessary for him to use it, why didn't he use it again after that (as far we know)? That's the last time he used it like that and we know he was impatient at that time.


Edited by Tale, 03 February 2018 - 07:21 AM.

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#55 D.Hyuga

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 08:36 AM


He was also faster than Luffy here and at that point Luffy was still much faster than people like Amande:

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/885/9

 

Amande used tech that is called slow waltz



#56 Tale

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 10:47 AM

Amande used tech that is called slow waltz

 

I was pointing out that he could still move extremely fast. There are the same blur effects Luffy has in other scenes. Amande doesn't have a lot of feats, so I wasn't trying to draw a comparison between her and Luffy.



#57 Fulmine

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 02:29 AM


You can easily ask "Without his Mochi DF what can Katakuri achieve?" If you're correct about Katakuri's speed, then then his awakened DF is just as important as his Coo when it comes to preventing Luffy from going G4 and outlasting G4 Luffy.

His DF's Awakening would help a lot to prevent G4, yeah. But like I said, even with it CoO is the actual deciding factor, far more important, cause without CoO we're not even sure if he can prevent G4 with his speed. And actually without his DF Katakuri can just dodge till kingdom comes instead of preventing G4 or hitting back at Luffy. And he would still win in a battle of endurance. So I don't think his DF is indispensable at all.

 

Oda said it right there in the manga through Luffy's mouth: "it's not your mochi power that is amazing, it's your color of observation''

 


Similarly, the fact that he has an edge over G2/3 Luffy is an important advantage, because he can perform at a higher level than Luffy can for most of the fight. Luffy can't constantly fight in G4

That only matters if he can outlast G4 and the reason he can, from what we have seen, is CoO. Your reasoning is like Usopp's sniping skill is an advantage if Akainu is careless and so a seastone cuff shot would make Akainu down. I don't count that as a real advantage. The real advantage is if Usopp has a skill that can make Akainu careless (and it should be a consistent power, not once-in-a-lifetime thing) and only then his sniping skill would be able to capitalize on that carelessness. Given the right circumstance and conditions anyone can beat everyone and sure, maybe we can use advantage in that sense but I don't think that's relevant in an ''overall who is stronger'' discussion. Katakuri is stronger and beating Luffy because of CoO, until Oda shows he actually can also take hits as well as or better than injured DD. For now, CoO is the single thing that manifests his superiority. Without it, it's canon he got thrown around by G4. The fact that he didn't meet G4 head-on with Donut shows even his Awakening is not enough. Like I said, unlike Enel, Katakuri's offense is just seriously lacking. He did worse than DD and Cracker in that department and the amount of time he took to fight G2/3 and the way G2/3 is annoying enough for him to bring out Awakening first is evidence.

 

 


and it hasn't been demonstrated that Katakuri would lose to G4 without his CoO. I acknowledge that at that point, given what we know (which isn't everything that might relevant), Luffy would have a definite edge, but a definite edge isn't equivalent to a victory. Suppose Katakuri can stall Luffy's G4 the same way Doffy did? He'd still be able to win, because he's stronger than Luffy outside G4. That's important as well. :shrug:

Well, sure, but we don't know if he really is that durable or endurable. So it's not a real advantage.

 

 


It's also how the technique works. The same thing happened when Katakuri prevented it. It takes some time for Luffy to inflate himself.

It doesn't matter if he did in one panel against Doflamingo. That's not a measure of time and we don't actually see the action of Luffy blowing air into himself, we only see the result. That doesn't mean it happened instantly.

It's the same in the clash with Big Mom. We only see the result. That doesn't mean the period of time Luffy usually takes to blow air into himself was skipped.

I didn't say it's instantaneous. Of course it takes some time. The thing is how fast that some time is and 4 out of 5, except the very first time, it was portrayed really fast, in the heat of battle. My point isn't Luffy did it slowly the first time. My point is Oda drew it step by step the first time so you feel like it was long.  And it was DD. That doesn't mean Katakuri could prevent it. Like I said, scaling Katakuri off DD is a mistake.

 

Number of panels is not measure of time, yes, but what happens on the panels can be and that's why I said ''controlled by DD''. DD was controlling Luffy so how likely he would put Luffy's wrist to Luffy's mouth and let Luffy go G4? LOL

He also got punched by G4 before. So if it takes quite an amount of time then DD should have intervened in some way. In fact he was shocked his threads were snapped suddenly.

 

We actually see the process, kinda. Look at Luffy's dialogue and clearly he activated G4 fast when that steam of smoke happened and BM was stunned for a sec. Same goes for Cracker and Katakuri fights.

 

 


You're ignoring the whole point Oda was trying to make in Chapter 879. He first had Katakuri demonstrate that he had better versions of Luffy's moves.

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/14

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/15

Then Katakuri asserted he was superior in power and speed to Luffy and Oda had him demonstrate both of those things:

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/16

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/17

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/18

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/879/19

That's the one of the few times Katakuri dodged an attack without reshaping his body. He was making the point that he is faster than Luffy and we can see that he could dodge G2 and G2 couldn't dodge him. He may not be so fast that he can consistently hit Luffy, but it can't be made more obvious that he has an edge.

Eh, I have addressed that feat before. It's hardly a solid evidence of superior speed. It's an evidence that Katakuri can perfectly perceive Luffy and react but similar-speed fighters can do that and that's why they hit each other...

 

As for the other links and context, yes, I know what Katakuri was trying to show there, but that doesn't mean his assertion is absolutely true. Katakuri didn't dodge by reshaping his body but he could still use CoO. In fact, if you insist on the context it's clear he had been using it to predict what Luffy would do next to copy. And that's my whole point: the guy has CoO that lets him see the future and yet he couldn't hit Luffy. Why didn't he assert one more by, you know, hitting Luffy instead of being so annoyed and helpless that he felt Awakening is needed to immobilize Luffy? That isn't just ''I'm not DAt fast to hit you all the time'', it's ''I'm slow enough that despite being able to see what you will do, I can't still hit you''

 

 


He was also faster than Luffy here and at that point Luffy was still much faster than people like Amande:

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/885/9

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/885/14

Luffy was very exhausted there after G4 and he wasn't even in Gear2 (the smoke is from G4, next page you see him run and stop without G2) :mellow:

 

''people like Amande'' has no relevance here. Amande has zero feat to understand where she ranks and the technique has ''slow'' in it (could just be a name and not speed reference but something to keep in mind). Luffy also didn't even use G2. In fact, how fast does Amande have to be for that feat to show Katakuri is faster than G2?

 

 


I was pointing out that he could still move extremely fast. There are the same blur effects Luffy has in other scenes.

Sure, but the point is fast enough for that feat to be relevant and that's not the case due to lack of information about Amande.

 

All Soru users have that effect the same. Aokiji also had it in MFWar. Gear 2 does, and Kuro does etc. That doesn't mean much regarding speed besides ''it's supposed to be faster than eye can see''

 

 


Here's another one. Luffy attacked, Katakuri dodged behind him and before Luffy has even recovered from his attack he was preparing his mochi donuts:

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/891/7

http://www.mangainn....ne-piece1/891/8

Again, Luffy wasn't even in Gear 2...

 

 


Luffy was still being punched there when Katakuri was about to kick him again. It's not just CoO, he's also very fast.

LOL, Katakuri's punches come from the mochi donuts he telekinetically controls. I'm not sure why that means he's very fast...being able to move both hand and leg only means the guy can multi-task.

 

 


Also, why are you saying he was forced to use Awakening? He was perfectly capable of hitting a distracted Luffy without it, so why think it was necessary to use it here?

http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/881/16

Evidence that was Awakening? That page doesn't clearly show Katakuri turning the ground into mochi. It could be he threw/shot mochi on the ground at around Luffy's leg. Like, the mochi was on the ground, not transformed from it. Also Luffy made no comment on it at that moment and was surprised later when Katakuri used Awakening. Of course, it could be that Luffy was so distracted there by conversation with his crew that he didn't notice anything but we don't know for sure.

 

But that's not what I meant anw. When I said Katakuri was forced to use Awakening I was talking about that scene where Katakuri was unable to hit Luffy only, to show his speed is not as fast as you think. It's not like every instance of his using Awakening is his being forced. He doesn't need to use Donut for example and can just dodge Luffy till G4 runs out.

 

Finally, he can hit distracted Luffy, yeah, but Luffy was running away there so there's a distance. Using mochi to stop Luffy is less pain than running to catch him.

 

 

 


A different question here for the below. He was getting dodged, yes, but does that mean that as time went on his edge in speed wouldn't have been costly for Luffy? The way I see it, Katakuri was just being efficient when he used awakening. Remember that he wanted to finish Luffy off as soon as possible at the time because of this.

My argument is never Katakuri will never hit Luffy...

 

And it's 40 minutes, Tale, counting from when Luffy talked to Nami through the mirror. Not just 10 minutes or so

 

 


http://www.mangainn....e-piece1/882/14

If you think it was necessary for him to use it, why didn't he use it again after that (as far we know)? That's the last time he used it like that and we know he was impatient at that time.

Because G4 is faster and more mobile than G2 when Luffy wanted to and can fly, too. Now, Luffy is improving in CoO so Katakuri wants to challenge that.


Spoiler Favorite male characters in manga/hwa/hua

#58 Abaroxa

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 06:54 AM

I don't know if Luffy can go G4 again because of the hole on the left side of his belly but if he can kata is done.


Imo base post-ts luffy now is luffy with basic haki and g2g3.


Spoiler Luffy vs kata, how is it going:


Spoiler Lets have a look at luffy vs cracker:


Spoiler What about luffy vs DD:



I have to go with fulmine when he says that kata was the worse against base luffy. The guy basically showed all he had within 1 hour of the fight. It's been 9 hours btw.
The best performance against G4 was DD because he took the damage and kept fighting and in the end he decided to go for a clash when he could have ran around waiting for Luffy to run out o haki.
Worst fight against Luffy was Cracker because he could have finished luffy in those hakiless 10 min but because he was to scared to sprain his knee... He was not flexible in terms of fighting because the moment nami began to moist those soldiers he should have changed his tactics so he wouldn't be on the ropes. DD changed his tactics a few times during the fight and so did kata.

Edited by Abaroxa, 07 February 2018 - 06:55 AM.


#59 Tale

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 01:16 PM

I lost my post :( Got to the last paragraph and then accidentally clicked one of the links in my quotes.

 

@Fulmine

 

I don't have the heart to type it again at the moment so just some quick points.

 

1. Fair point about Luffy not being in G2 in the other examples. I didn't notice that (I always assume he moves at G2 speed for some reason).

2. I don't think it's a mistake to scale Katakuri off an injured Doflamingo. I think Katakuri > injured Doflamingo in nearly every respect. If you think it's a mistake, can you explain why?

3. I'll rewrite my post about context again eventually. I think you're completely wrong here but I'm lazy atm.

4. As for his CoO, do you think there are gaps in it? I'll write more about this but it will be interesting in the meantime to hear what you think about it. I don't think it's perfect and I think it's probably false to say that it's working all the time, even against G4.



#60 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 07:07 AM

Katakuri with Future Sight > Doflamingo > Katakuri without FS > Cracker >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smoothie


qhz8b56l.png





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