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[Discussion] Power Levels (Part 4)


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#81 Madara D Dragon

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 07:01 AM

Even if you want to draw a forced distinction between pain tolerance and damage threshold (its very likely the same in the simplified world of One Piece


Well, that forced distinction has clearly been shown in the simplified world of One Piece... Look at BB crying and shouting over every damn hit yet he takes a quake punch to the face and stands up without any problem. I can accept the argument that being KOed by Luffy's attack proves his low endurance, but what he said doesnt prove it at all.
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#82 Tale

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 01:33 PM

@Fulmine

 

Does this chapter do anything to make you revise your opinion about Katakuri's speed?

 

This seems like Luffy's fastest form yet (since there doesn't appear to be a significant difference between G4 and G2 in terms of speed), Luffy's CoO has vastly improved (he was able to hit Katakuri in base form in the previous chapter), he's not using multiple limbs to fight back (Luffy is actually the one using clever gimmicks) and he's not changing his shape to dodge. Also, he might not be able to predict the future what Luffy does after the first dodge (which is very strongly implied in the beginning of this chapter and would be consistent with him being unable to see Sanji dodging his attack after the priest tried to shoot him).



#83 captain kidd

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 03:22 PM

Dogtooth not changing his shape to dodge is more of an enel situation then him being too slow.

In every hit dogtooth is able to get coa up before luffy lands the hit.
And in some of the hots dogtooth is able to get his guard up and even turn his body.

Either changing shape takes a whole minuet to acomplish or dogtooth is just forgetting his powers like enel did.
 
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#84 Tale

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 03:38 PM

Dogtooth not changing his shape to dodge is more of an enel situation then him being too slow.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with speed. My point there was that he's undeniably using his speed to dodge. I think he isn't using his DF to dodge because it's not as reliable as it was before. This is because Luffy seems to be countering his CoO with his movements and he also has improved his CoO. Dodging completely out of the way or blocking is safer than moving a tiny part of your body away.


Edited by Tale, 16 February 2018 - 03:41 PM.


#85 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 06:55 PM

@Fulmine

 

Does this chapter do anything to make you revise your opinion about Katakuri's speed?

 

This seems like Luffy's fastest form yet (since there doesn't appear to be a significant difference between G4 and G2 in terms of speed), Luffy's CoO has vastly improved (he was able to hit Katakuri in base form in the previous chapter), he's not using multiple limbs to fight back (Luffy is actually the one using clever gimmicks) and he's not changing his shape to dodge. Also, he might not be able to predict the future what Luffy does after the first dodge (which is very strongly implied in the beginning of this chapter and would be consistent with him being unable to see Sanji dodging his attack after the priest tried to shoot him).

 

No, it goes Luffy attacks -> Katakuri dodges with FS -> Luffy sees the dodge with FS, changes direction of Jet Culverin which also makes it faster -> Katakuri sees the direction change but the attack is too fast and he can´t get away.

 

The more he dodges, the faster the attack becomes, hence after the third hit of Luffy, instead of dodging, he counterattacks or later on kicks the attack rather than dodging it.


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#86 Enbima

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 08:15 PM

on what panel does luffy use FS? @ShinmenTakezo


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#87 Fulmine

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 02:27 AM

@Fulmine

 

Does this chapter do anything to make you revise your opinion about Katakuri's speed?

 

This seems like Luffy's fastest form yet (since there doesn't appear to be a significant difference between G4 and G2 in terms of speed), Luffy's CoO has vastly improved (he was able to hit Katakuri in base form in the previous chapter), he's not using multiple limbs to fight back (Luffy is actually the one using clever gimmicks) and he's not changing his shape to dodge. Also, he might not be able to predict the future what Luffy does after the first dodge (which is very strongly implied in the beginning of this chapter and would be consistent with him being unable to see Sanji dodging his attack after the priest tried to shoot him).

Not really...except for Luffy's improved CoO I don't think the others are important and I don't think it;s the same as the Sanji situation.

 

He has shown more speed techniques though and that's a plus.


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#88 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 05:28 AM

on what panel does luffy use FS? @ShinmenTakezo

 

It´s implied by Luffy seeing where Katakuri is dodging to.

We have two perspectives in this chapter, one from a spectator and from Katakuri´s perspective.

 

Katakuri´s FS is still better since he can see more so to speak but after the initial dodge, Luffy makes up for that with Snakeman´s attack´s speed, which he could not do with Boundman.


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#89 Tale

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 06:46 AM


 
No, it goes Luffy attacks -> Katakuri dodges with FS -> Luffy sees the dodge with FS, changes direction of Jet Culverin which also makes it faster -> Katakuri sees the direction change but the attack is too fast and he can´t get away.

The more he dodges, the faster the attack becomes, hence after the third hit of Luffy, instead of dodging, he counterattacks or later on kicks the attack rather than dodging it.

 

Katakuri's reactions to Luffy's redirected attacks are taking place a split second before the attacks themselves. 

The "!?" here:

https://readms.net/r...iece/895/4897/3

The attack from the side here:

https://readms.net/r...iece/895/4897/4

 

This isn't consistent with what we know about his FS, which is that it lets him see several seconds in the future.

 

If those are FS predictions, (and I don't necessarily disagree that they are), then Katakuri is only able to acquire them after something specific happens (Luffy foresees his movement and plans a change in direction, perhaps, and Katakuri's predictions "reset", and then it's Luffy whose FS will reset next), but then they're still arguably taking place far too close in time to the event that they predict, meaning that his FS isn't as useful to Katakuri here as it was before. I think it's fair to say - based on Sanji dodging his jelly bean, as there he showed genuine surprise- that Katakuri cannot predict reactions to his interventions.

 

Katakuri also didn't foresee what Luffy was doing, because he didn't understand why the attack was coming from the side. He foresaw Luffy's attack (that is, Luffy punching), but didn't foresee the attack continuing to move after he dodged:

 

In contrast, remember before that he foresaw Luffy's activation of G4, the fact that both of them would use CoC (and its consequences - although its not exactly an impressive prediction that Flambe and her cronies would faint from the CoC blast), as well as the differences in Luffy's attacks (like Elephant Gun), to the extent that he could mimic them as soon as Luffy used them. This can be consistent with him noticing the attacks coming from the side and so on with FS, as long as in the first prediction he misses the change in direction (since it is a reaction to his intervention) and in the second he cannot see what Luffy is doing because all that he can foresee just before being hit is himself being hit.

 

If I'm right about all of this, I think it's fair to say Katakuri's CoO advantage is being countered by Luffy's new form.


Edited by Tale, 17 February 2018 - 06:52 AM.


#90 Fulmine

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 12:45 AM

From Marco, Jozu to Cracker, Katakuri, I think Oda is telling us that what separates them from the monstrous Yonkiral is base stats and destructiveness. This might change with future Top Commanders (especially Kaido's crew since they are beast-theme and maybe they are tough) but so far look at what these 4 guys specialize in: Regeneration, diamond body, biscuit ''barrier'' and CoO (and Marco and Katakuri have a limit to how long they can use their abilities so once that limit is reached, they may be screwed even harder than the lower-ranked Commanders)

All are defensive skills, ways to deal with attacks. Their offense sucks compared to Yonkiral we have seen (Katakuri's is decent but still lame vs magma, light, ice, quake, weather, darkness, gravity/force. The stickiness is troublesome but I don't see it deals much problem to Yonkiral). And then base stats...Look at how Katakuri trade blows with G4 and got sent flying and compare it to how BM casually elbowed Kong Gun or Akainu blocked/endured WB's quake punch. Then Akainu vs Aokiji lasted for 10 days whereas Ace vs Jinbe or Jack vs Minks are 5 days.

 

Top Commanders are high-tiers because they do have great skills and their DFs are fairly impressive but Oda reserves the sickest DFs for Yonkiral and give them monstrous physicality. I think there's a chance that Yonkiral can just do brawling/hand-to-hand combat with CoA/CoO and without DFs they can still fight Top Commanders well. Or maybe just the minimum/most basic usage of their DFs. In BM's case, her DF counters her sons' DFs LOL. Maybe it was her who picked the DFs for them.


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#91 Abaroxa

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:17 AM

From Marco, Jozu to Cracker, Katakuri, I think Oda is telling us that what separates them from the monstrous Yonkiral is base stats and destructiveness. This might change with future Top Commanders (especially Kaido's crew since they are beast-theme and maybe they are tough) but so far look at what these 4 guys specialize in: Regeneration, diamond body, biscuit ''barrier'' and CoO (and Marco and Katakuri have a limit to how long they can use their abilities so once that limit is reached, they may be screwed even harder than the lower-ranked Commanders)
All are defensive skills, ways to deal with attacks. Their offense sucks compared to Yonkiral we have seen (Katakuri's is decent but still lame vs magma, light, ice, quake, weather, darkness, gravity/force. The stickiness is troublesome but I don't see it deals much problem to Yonkiral). And then base stats...Look at how Katakuri trade blows with G4 and got sent flying and compare it to how BM casually elbowed Kong Gun or Akainu blocked/endured WB's quake punch. Then Akainu vs Aokiji lasted for 10 days whereas Ace vs Jinbe or Jack vs Minks are 5 days.

Top Commanders are high-tiers because they do have great skills and their DFs are fairly impressive but Oda reserves the sickest DFs for Yonkiral and give them monstrous physicality. I think there's a chance that Yonkiral can just do brawling/hand-to-hand combat with CoA/CoO and without DFs they can still fight Top Commanders well. Or maybe just the minimum/most basic usage of their DFs. In BM's case, her DF counters her sons' DFs LOL. Maybe it was her who picked the DFs for them.

I agree with everything you said. Specially that last part about BM picking her children fruits. Given that she as influence in the underworld, I can assume she buys known fruits and then names her children after they receive the fruits: smoothie, cracker, oven.
Also like the fact that you said she got fruits, which she can easily counter, to her top children.
That just shows the difference between BM and WB. One of WB top commanders (Ace) had CoC and he was training/preparing ace to be the next pirate king. Now we meet kata which also has CoC and BM does not care for him at all. WB seemed to know his limits. He knew he was old but BM on the other hand is still trying to make it even though she is in her 60s.

Quick question. What would have happen if all of BM children got fed up of her and decides to kill her. Do you think they can do it?
If yes, kata, smoothie, cracker, snack, perospero, oven, daifuke and Compote would be enough? or would they require the full crew?

#92 Fulmine

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:39 AM


Quick question. What would have happen if all of BM children got fed up of her and decides to kill her. Do you think they can do it?
If yes, kata, smoothie, cracker, snack, perospero, oven, daifuke and Compote would be enough? or would they require the full crew?

Given how they are scared shitless and decided to run away when she's in her hungry rampage and Pero's monologue is all about if she doesn't have the cake the country is done for, I think nah. Their powerlessness are shown very clearly by Oda. Obviously they don't want to kill her in the manga so if they want to, it would be much harder but yeah, BM still wins.

 

Oh, but that is only if they go at her like head-on. If they do prep and stuffs then maybe they can beat her. Then again, I don't think there's anyone in this crew, even someone competent like Katakuri and Peros, have great brain to make an ingenious plan.

 

So all in all, I agree with captain kidd: most of the times the captains are much stronger than their second or even the whole crew. I just don't think it's literally just the captains that matter like him though.

The only exceptions I can think of would probably be Roger's crew, Luffy's crew and definitely Marines. Akainu clearly isn't a whole level above Kizaru and I don't think Kong is much stronger than Akainu. Luffy cannot fodderize Zolo but I think at best high-diff if not for Oda's crazy love for Zolo. And Rayleigh...I'm sure he's weaker than Roger and PrimeWB but I feel the gap is possibly not that big.


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