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Dragon Ball Super (Part 4)

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#561 Blue22

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 12:39 PM

I just want to see Goten get some love.

 

^This. We need a Goten and Trunks arc or Z-Fighters arc (though I guess this current arc kinda counts as that) or something. Find some way to get Goku and Vegeta out of the picture (some far off Whis training or some shit) and give us a villain that isn't SSB level but still strong enough to at least be a threat to everyone else. Give Gotenks the hero title that he was robbed of in the Buu saga :lolxg:



#562 waleuska

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 12:40 PM

^This. We need a Goten and Trunks arc or Z-Fighters arc (though I guess this current arc kinda counts as that) or something. Find some way to get Goku and Vegeta out of the picture (some far off Whis training or some shit) and give us a villain that isn't SSB level but still strong enough to at least be a threat to everyone else. Give Gotenks the hero title that he was robbed of in the Buu saga :lolxg:

can you please pass the weed because your hopes are way to damn high.


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#563 JDG973

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 12:41 PM

Don't worry DarkNemisis, you don't need to rewatch the entire DBS. We have no conclusive evidence that Tagoma passed Mystic Gohan. Gohan lost it just like he was losing his ability to go SSJ and struggled to maintain what bit of it that he could manage to pull out.. In fact, he decided to go SSJ as a means of beating an opponent he couldn't with the white aura(which some people thought was mystic and are wrong) he was using prior and he even mentions he can't draw out his full power.  

 

Why are people OBSSESSED with the narrative that Gohan is now back to being weaker than Cell Games Gohan?

 

How do you even lose a permanent base upgrade? Yes Gohan's body was out practice, but he didn't lose the power completely, his body just couldn't handle his full power now in just base mode without transforming. SSJ for Gohan now is basically Kaioken with out the life threatening muscle spasms, it gets him above his full power a bit but it drains the hell out of his Ki. Elder Kai himself stated in the Buu Saga that going SSJ wouldn't increase his power and would be a waste of Ki.

 

Piccolo stated that regular Tagoma was as strong Gohan was "in his prime"(this is not even taking into account Ginyu Tagoma), if he wasn't talking about Mystic, than the only other prime was SSJ2 Teen Gohan. Is Piccolo's constant training that ineffective that he still hasn't surpassed his Cell Saga power level? The only other stronger character in ROF who beat on Gohan was first form Frieza, who later on matched Saiyan Beyond God Goku in final form, and then was more powerful than SSB Goku in Golden Form but couldn't maintain it(basically 100% full power all over again). But guess that makes Gohan apparently pathetic now.

 

Then again there are people out there on the internet who legitimately think that "Mystic = Super Saiyan God", so it doesn't matter what anyone says otherwise.


Edited by JDG973, 22 February 2017 - 12:43 PM.

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#564 Blue22

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 12:43 PM

can you please pass the weed because your hopes are way to damn high.

 

I said we need. Not "I think we'll get". There is a difference lol


 

Then again there are people out there on the internet who legitimately think that "Mystic = Super Saiyan God"

 

...Wait, seriously?



#565 LordPerucho

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 10:01 PM

It's one thing to have other characters beating the villains. As long as it's logically possible. Trunks going from weaker than SSJ3 to stronger than SSJB with no training from Whis and in a couple of days is absurd. Zamack being able to stop SSJB Goku and Vegeta's punches at the same time with no effort but then hardly being able to stop Trunks' sword slash is absurd.

 

For example, if Trunks had beaten Zamasu, it'd be acceptable. It'd be great. Having him beat someone who should be far stronger than him, is not

 

Mirai Zamasu being SSJB level isnt bad because he he had 17 years of preparation, and Goku mentioned he had great potential.

 

In Trunks case the only excuse is the hybrids always had potential.

 

:lol:

We don't want Goku and Vegeta always beating the enemy. But we all acknowledge that they are the only ones who get any training sufficient enough to fight the enemies. Then you do have anime asspull moments like Trunks and Gohan being on the same level as Goku. How is that possible? Given what's been explicitly told to us thus far? The writers have screwed the power levels up so far that we can't even be happy when Trunks does defeat the last boss. All because the God of Asspull has been this unknown entity that the writers won't even hint at existing. But interferes in damn near every aspect of DBS.

 

Again because hybrids always had hidden potential, then u also had Vegeta being 10% of Beerus power in BoG, Tagoma going from Zarbon level to curbstomping Piccolo. 


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#566 ixSheng

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 10:55 PM

Why are people OBSSESSED with the narrative that Gohan is now back to being weaker than Cell Games Gohan?

 

How do you even lose a permanent base upgrade? Yes Gohan's body was out practice, but he didn't lose the power completely, his body just couldn't handle his full power now in just base mode without transforming. SSJ for Gohan now is basically Kaioken with out the life threatening muscle spasms, it gets him above his full power a bit but it drains the hell out of his Ki. Elder Kai himself stated in the Buu Saga that going SSJ wouldn't increase his power and would be a waste of Ki.

 

Piccolo stated that regular Tagoma was as strong Gohan was "in his prime"(this is not even taking into account Ginyu Tagoma), if he wasn't talking about Mystic, than the only other prime was SSJ2 Teen Gohan. Is Piccolo's constant training that ineffective that he still hasn't surpassed his Cell Saga power level? The only other stronger character in ROF who beat on Gohan was first form Frieza, who later on matched Saiyan Beyond God Goku in final form, and then was more powerful than SSB Goku in Golden Form but couldn't maintain it(basically 100% full power all over again). But guess that makes Gohan apparently pathetic now.

 

Then again there are people out there on the internet who legitimately think that "Mystic = Super Saiyan God", so it doesn't matter what anyone says otherwise.

 

Logically it makes no sense... Mystic was an upgrade that while in base powering up to SSJ state would give him a power greater than his transformative state while remaining in base.. What this did is it allowed him to gain a massive boost without burning stamina transforming. So all that work that they were practicing during the Cell Saga of keeping their SSJ state on at all times(where their hair was the very light yellow instead of gold) was thrown out the window. 

 

It doesn't make any sense what-so-ever for Gohan to still have Mystic and be going SSJ after failing in Mystic. It's like Goku going SSJ3 to beat an opponent he can't beat at SSJB.. No we aren't talking about both people being worn out and Goku not having the stamina left to go SSJB. We are talking about Goku being worn out from previous fights and then getting his ass kicked to the point he says to himself "I have no choice but to go SSJ3". This is literally what happened to Gohan in DBS. Go rewatch the episode, he not only mentions he lost his ability to fight at full power, he flat out says he has no choice but to go SSJ even though he knows he can't maintain it long.

 

How can SSJ be Kaioken without risk? That literally makes no sense.. Kaioken makes you stronger than your base state. If that is the case why did Gohan never go SSJ against Super Buu when he was starting to lose? The fact of the matter is Gohan NEVER went SSJ after getting Mystic upgrade, that is for a reason(it's weaker than his Mystic upgrade). Ok so you admit that SSJ won't increase his power at all as stated by Old Kai but you are stating it gets him to his full power quicker at the expense of his Ki? That doesn't even begin to make sense. Mystic is stronger than his SSJ transformations Goku said it himself he was stronger than he ever was as a SSJ, It's not just a stamina conserver. To now say that going SSJ for Gohan is a quick fix to his full power is just plain wrong especially since his SSJ transformations are WEAKER than his Mystic upgrade. 

 

Uhm I think you're forgetting a few things. Gohan said that Tagoma was "hiding his power and might be as strong as him at his best". The way it was phrased seems more like he's saying Tagoma is as strong as his current best not his former prime. This is further backed up by the fact that Base Vegeta kills him with a basic Ki blast. Although if you can make the argument that Base Vegeta has passed Mystic Gohan then I'll be accepting that the statement Gohan made about Tagoma could be interpreted in a way that could relate to the past as well(though I don't personally believe it to be so). Also I'd like to point out that Ginyu's body change tech doesn't increase the bodies overall power level, it swaps them and he has to get used to the body to draw out the potential of it and in some cases he likely can't ever if the ability to do something is completely foreign to him. We saw examples of that when he changed places with Goku. 

 

Gohan is a pathetic fighter now, everyone knows that. 

 

Idk of anyone who thinks Mystic is SSG that's just absurd.. 



#567 JDG973

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 12:50 PM

Logically it makes no sense... Mystic was an upgrade that while in base powering up to SSJ state would give him a power greater than his transformative state while remaining in base.. What this did is it allowed him to gain a massive boost without burning stamina transforming. So all that work that they were practicing during the Cell Saga of keeping their SSJ state on at all times(where their hair was the very light yellow instead of gold) was thrown out the window.

 

How?
 

It doesn't make any sense what-so-ever for Gohan to still have Mystic and be going SSJ after failing in Mystic. It's like Goku going SSJ3 to beat an opponent he can't beat at SSJB.. No we aren't talking about both people being worn out and Goku not having the stamina left to go SSJB. We are talking about Goku being worn out from previous fights and then getting his ass kicked to the point he says to himself "I have no choice but to go SSJ3". This is literally what happened to Gohan in DBS. Go rewatch the episode, he not only mentions he lost his ability to fight at full power, he flat out says he has no choice but to go SSJ even though he knows he can't maintain it long.
 
How can SSJ be Kaioken without risk? That literally makes no sense.. Kaioken makes you stronger than your base state. If that is the case why did Gohan never go SSJ against Super Buu when he was starting to lose? The fact of the matter is Gohan NEVER went SSJ after getting Mystic upgrade, that is for a reason(it's weaker than his Mystic upgrade). Ok so you admit that SSJ won't increase his power at all as stated by Old Kai but you are stating it gets him to his full power quicker at the expense of his Ki? That doesn't even begin to make sense. Mystic is stronger than his SSJ transformations Goku said it himself he was stronger than he ever was as a SSJ, It's not just a stamina conserver. To now say that going SSJ for Gohan is a quick fix to his full power is just plain wrong especially since his SSJ transformations are WEAKER than his Mystic upgrade.

 
It's more like if Goku going SSG to beat an opponent he can't beat in his Saiyan Beyond God base form.

 

Mystic is not a transformation, it's basically an unlocker. It requires the user's body to be able to handle the whole of his powers in just his base body(the Z Sword training helped with that). Gohan's base body was at peak when he fought against Super Buu and maintained it during BoG. If the base body alone can't handle that power anymore(due to a lack of training), then Gohan going SSJ isn't for SSJ's power boost, it's for strengthening his body.
 

Uhm I think you're forgetting a few things. Gohan said that Tagoma was "hiding his power and might be as strong as him at his best". The way it was phrased seems more like he's saying Tagoma is as strong as his current best not his former prime. This is further backed up by the fact that Base Vegeta kills him with a basic Ki blast. Although if you can make the argument that Base Vegeta has passed Mystic Gohan then I'll be accepting that the statement Gohan made about Tagoma could be interpreted in a way that could relate to the past as well(though I don't personally believe it to be so). Also I'd like to point out that Ginyu's body change tech doesn't increase the bodies overall power level, it swaps them and he has to get used to the body to draw out the potential of it and in some cases he likely can't ever if the ability to do something is completely foreign to him. We saw examples of that when he changed places with Goku.

 

But if he's NOT at his best, like you're implying, then that statement doesn't make sense. From the way he said it, he looked like he meant if he had kept his base form in shape, which was late Buu Arc/BoG.

 

In the Namek Saga, we know that Ginyu couldn't tap into Goku's potential because we not only saw him struggling against Gohan and Krillen, but Krillen verbally confirmed that he couldn't use his full power. Tagoma's body, on the other hand, showed no signs of struggling against the Z fighters, plus Piccolo and Jaco confirmed that he was bringing out Togoma's potential.
 

Gohan is a pathetic fighter now, everyone knows that.


Why, because Gohan supposedly "lost" Mystic?

The truth of the matter is, even had kept his body in perfect shape......NOTHING WOULD HAVE CHANGED!

 

Gohan would of still got beat on by Frieza. Gohan would of still got wrecked by Copy Vegeta. Gohan still wouldn't be a match for even half of the U6 fighters. Gohan would of still been just as worse off, maybe even worst, in the Black Arc as pre-SSJ Ikari Trunks was.

 

Ultimately........MYSTIC GOHAN IS NOT A GAME CHANGER ANYMORE!

 

If the narrative is that Gohan is a pathetic fighter now, and Tagoma is no where near even Cell Saga Gohan, do you realize that makes Piccolo look even MORE pathetic. It doesn't make any logical sense that Piccolo is still THAT weak after all these years. Unlike Gohan, he DOES constantly train, and unlike the human fighters, there's no excuse that he hit some sort of metaphorical ceiling in raising his power level.
 

Idk of anyone who thinks Mystic is SSG that's just absurd..


I've seen a lot of posts and threads that have people that think this, but half of those same people also put Gohan on a pedestal and would handwave anything that sounds like an asspull when comes to him. Hell, there are still people who think Super Saiyan God is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue.


Edited by JDG973, 23 February 2017 - 01:01 PM.

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#568 DarkNemesis

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 03:18 PM

Gohan would of still got beat on by Frieza.


I have hesitation about that. Base Frieza was much stronger, yes. But above Mystic Gohan? :shrug:

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#569 ixSheng

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 04:09 PM

 

How?
 
I explained how.
 

 

It's more like if Goku going SSG to beat an opponent he can't beat in his Saiyan Beyond God base form.
 
No.. That's backwards.. Gohan was floored by Tagoma and Ginyu, in what you claim to be his Mystic form.. Then, transforms to SSJ and 2 shots Ginyu, declares himself the winner. SSG = SBG, Mystic > SSJ/SSJ2. Goku would never get his ass handed to him, in a more powerful state, still have the stamina to utilize said state, but instead choose to go to a less powerful state to win a fight when the more powerful state had no drawbacks. The only time any Saiyan chose to use a less powerful state was when SSJG(Grades) were introduced. When they utilized these grades they lost speed at the expense of power and as a result abandoned the idea entirely as it wasn't efficient. If Gohan cannot "handle" his "whole" aka Mystic(in your view which is actually wrong) power in his base body he has essentially lost it...... What's more is that SSJ actually puts more strain on his body than Mystic since it has the energy conservative property to it. Again I say, Mystic ascends beyond Gohan's SSJ forms in terms of power, it is NOT something that takes all his SSJ power and condences it into his base form.  
 
 

 

Mystic is not a transformation, it's basically an unlocker. It requires the user's body to be able to handle the whole of his powers in just his base body(the Z Sword training helped with that). Gohan's base body was at peak when he fought against Super Buu and maintained it during BoG. If the base body alone can't handle that power anymore(due to a lack of training), then Gohan going SSJ isn't for SSJ's power boost, it's for strengthening his body.
 
Sure it may not be a transformation in the ways of visuals but it is something that requires the user to power up to it. So it's transformative in its properties/effects, the same way Kaioken was without the risk Kaioken had. "It requires the user's body to be able to handle the whole of his powers in just his base body(the Z Sword training helped with that)" Where did you get this sort of information? Mystic was NOT Gohan attaining his SSJ power in base.. Mystic ascended beyond his SSJ powers. We actually don't know that Gohan's body was at its peak. We don't know his peak potential because he stopped training.. For all we know Gohan could have been the first to hit SSG/SSB if he continued his training like Goku and Vegeta. There is also no proof he maintained his strength in BoG. In fact, there's evidence to the contrary.. 
 
 

 

But if he's NOT at his best, like you're implying, then that statement doesn't make sense. From the way he said it, he looked like he meant if he had kept his base form in shape, which was late Buu Arc/BoG.
 
I disagree though I acknowledge it's vague enough to be interpreted both ways. Either way the insertion of the statement in its entirety is for hype purposes and at the end of the day the use of the word "might" in Gohan's statement lets us know he is potentially incorrect, as we saw when he went SSJ, two shot the guy, and declared the fight being over. Everyone has a current best but that doesn't mean ultimately it is the highest they are able to achieve in the grand scheme of things. In this particular show we never really know when a Saiyan is at their absolute best unless they continue training the entire time and we are able to see them live out the entirety of their lives till the story ends. 
 
 

 

In the Namek Saga, we know that Ginyu couldn't tap into Goku's potential because we not only saw him struggling against Gohan and Krillen, but Krillen verbally confirmed that he couldn't use his full power. Tagoma's body, on the other hand, showed no signs of struggling against the Z fighters, plus Piccolo and Jaco confirmed that he was bringing out Togoma's potential.
 
No, Piccolo and Jaco confirmed Tagoma's body was exerting more energy than he was previously. 
 
Piccolo: "He's stronger than before!?"
Jaco: "I see. He's utilizing all of that Tagoma fellow's strength."
 
Piccolo's statement just allows us to know Ginyu is exerting more power than Tagoma was prior to the body change.
Jaco's statement says he believes Ginyu is not hiding power the way Tagoma was.
Let's not forget Ginyu himself said he wasn't yet used to the body and Gohan stated before the body change even happened that Tagoma was hiding his strength..

 

 

 

 

 

Why, because Gohan supposedly "lost" Mystic?

 

 

The truth of the matter is, even had kept his body in perfect shape......NOTHING WOULD HAVE CHANGED!
 
Gohan would of still got beat on by Frieza. Gohan would of still got wrecked by Copy Vegeta. Gohan still wouldn't be a match for even half of the U6 fighters. Gohan would of still been just as worse off, maybe even worst, in the Black Arc as pre-SSJ Ikari Trunks was.
 
Ultimately........MYSTIC GOHAN IS NOT A GAME CHANGER ANYMORE!
 
If the narrative is that Gohan is a pathetic fighter now, and Tagoma is nowhere near even Cell Saga Gohan, do you realize that makes Piccolo look even MORE pathetic. It doesn't make any logical sense that Piccolo is still THAT weak after all these years. Unlike Gohan, he DOES constantly train, and unlike the human fighters, there's no excuse that he hit some sort of metaphorical ceiling in raising his power level.

 

 

 
Obviously, if he kept up with his training nothing would have changed.. That is the entire point LOL.. He could have maintained his fighting level or gotten even stronger, instead, he chose a route that ultimately made him WEAKER.. He's not Superman where he doesn't have to do a thing and still has the ability to do things.. He's closer to an actual human in the fact that if he doesn't keep up with something he will lose it.. 
 
Idk why you're talking about Frieza but I guess I can entertain the notion.. That is not guaranteed. If Gohan continued his training he could have been right where Vegeta and Goku were during Frieza's return. Hell he could have actually been stronger than them both as well. Dunno why you brought up Copy Vegeta and all those others examples but again my previous statements apply.  
 
Wait, how does Tagoma being weaker than Cell Games Gohan make Piccolo more pathetic? Since when were you under the impression Piccolo could hang with Super Saiyans? Once everyone started turning into SSJ's, Piccolo became fodder.. Piccolo being this weak after years can and does make sense. Namekians are not really on the list of elite fighters. Are you forgetting Nail was their strongest? How exactly do you think he fairs against the majority of what we've seen in the show now? Piccolo has long reached his peak, his training isn't improving at this point it's maintaining. Piccolo doesn't have access to Zenkai boosts so he hits his ceiling the same way Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, aka all non-saiyans have. In fact the only reason he's where he is now is because he's fused with two other Namekians. 
 

 

I've seen a lot of posts and threads that have people that think this, but half of those same people also put Gohan on a pedestal and would handwave anything that sounds like an asspull when comes to him. Hell, there are still people who think Super Saiyan God is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue.
 
Damn that's crazy dude, Gohan was my favorite up until the end of the Buu Saga. Some people just need to learn when to let go. 

Edited by ixSheng, 23 February 2017 - 06:38 PM.


#570 masterbio

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 05:33 PM

Changing all this Gohan talk. I would've liked to see some villains in the Universe 7 team. Sure most of them are in hell, but if the universe gets destroyed they also are erased.

Imagine having Freeza and Cell fighting alongside Goku and co.? It would lead to interesting character interactions and possibly a more balanced team.


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#571 Kaidou

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 05:35 PM

I'm amazed that freaking Dragon Ball super is generating so mutch discussion.



#572 ixSheng

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 06:34 PM

I mean it would be kinda cool but I think that's a little too intricate for a show that has trouble including even the closest of characters in any sort of relevant way. They should focus more on finding ways to include them before branching out into cooperating with past foes.



#573 JDG973

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Posted 23 February 2017 - 09:28 PM

I have hesitation about that. Base Frieza was much stronger, yes. But above Mystic Gohan? :shrug:


Well maybe not Base Frieza, but he definitely wasn't a match against Final Form Frieza.

 
 

No.. That's backwards.. Gohan was floored by Tagoma and Ginyu, in what you claim to be his Mystic form.. Then, transforms to SSJ and 2 shots Ginyu, declares himself the winner. SSG = SBG, Mystic > SSJ/SSJ2. Goku would never get his ass handed to him, in a more powerful state, still have the stamina to utilize said state, but instead choose to go to a less powerful state to win a fight when the more powerful state had no drawbacks. The only time any Saiyan chose to use a less powerful state was when SSJG(Grades) were introduced. When they utilized these grades they lost speed at the expense of power and as a result abandoned the idea entirely as it wasn't efficient. If Gohan cannot "handle" his "whole" aka Mystic(in your view which is actually wrong) power in his base body he has essentially lost it...... What's more is that SSJ actually puts more strain on his body than Mystic since it has the energy conservative property to it. Again I say, Mystic ascends beyond Gohan's SSJ forms in terms of power, it is NOT something that takes all his SSJ power and condences it into his base form.


Sure it may not be a transformation in the ways of visuals but it is something that requires the user to power up to it. So it's transformative in its properties/effects, the same way Kaioken was without the risk Kaioken had. "It requires the user's body to be able to handle the whole of his powers in just his base body(the Z Sword training helped with that)" Where did you get this sort of information? Mystic was NOT Gohan attaining his SSJ power in base.. Mystic ascended beyond his SSJ powers. We actually don't know that Gohan's body was at its peak. We don't know his peak potential because he stopped training.. For all we know Gohan could have been the first to hit SSG/SSB if he continued his training like Goku and Vegeta.


That isn't what i meant.
 
I what i meant was that Mystic form was a permanent base upgrade condenses ALL of his latent future potential, SSJ and beyond, into his base form.
 
Gohan getting SSG/SSB through just regular training is highly unlikely, one form is locked behind a ritual, and the other requires very specific training from someone familiar with God Ki, like Whis. At most he would get something similar to Trunks's SSJ Ikari, which is not the real thing.
 

There is also no proof he maintained his strength in BoG. In fact, there's evidence to the contrary..

 
How do you figure that?

In your argument, if you lose Mystic, you lose it in its entirety. In neither the BoG movie or BoG arc of Super was Gohan forced to go SSJ 1, he was still regarded as the strongest fighter there, and he even looks exactly the same as he was in late Buu Arc.
 

I disagree though I acknowledge it's vague enough to be interpreted both ways. Either way the insertion of the statement in its entirety is for hype purposes and at the end of the day the use of the word "might" in Gohan's statement lets us know he is potentially incorrect, as we saw when he went SSJ, two shot the guy, and declared the fight being over. Everyone has a current best but that doesn't mean ultimately it is the highest they are able to achieve in the grand scheme of things. In this particular show we never really know when a Saiyan is at their absolute best unless they continue training the entire time and we are able to see them live out the entirety of their lives till the story ends.

 
I wasn't just "might", Gohan says "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what i have when at my best." I would think if someone said "at my best", they really mean the highest they are able to achieve between the past until currently, not also into the future.
 
 

No, Piccolo and Jaco confirmed Tagoma's body was exerting more energy than he was previously. 
 
Piccolo: "He's stronger than before!?"
Jaco: "I see. He's utilizing all of that Tagoma fellow's strength."
 
Piccolo's statement just allows us to know Ginyu is exerting more power than Tagoma was prior to the body change.
Jaco's statement says he believes Ginyu is not hiding power the way Tagoma was.
Let's not forget Ginyu himself said he wasn't yet used to the body and Gohan stated before the body change even happened that Tagoma was hiding his strength..


Ginyu said he wasn't used to the body, yet a few seconds later, was immediately able use all of it's power. Jaco himself stated "He's utilizing all of that Tagoma fellow's strength", not just more of it. That's more than what he was able to bring out of Goku's body on Namek.
 
 

Obviously, if he kept up with his training nothing would have changed.. That is the entire point LOL.. He could have maintained his fighting level or gotten even stronger, instead, he chose a route that ultimately made him WEAKER.. He's not Superman where he doesn't have to do a thing and still has the ability to do things.. He's closer to an actual human in the fact that if he doesn't keep up with something he will lose it..

 
Agree to disagree on this point, but i don't think Gohan lost Mystic entirely. Yes Gohan, to a certain extent got weaker, but not THAT weak.
 
Think of for example Vegeta's state versus Hit in the manga. He wasn't able to use 1/10th of his SSB power in that fight, which made it appear "weaker" than SSG Goku. Just because he wasn't able to use his full SSB power doesn't mean he instantly went back into Buu Arc SS2 power level.
 

Idk why you're talking about Frieza but I guess I can entertain the notion.. That is not guaranteed. If Gohan continued his training he could have been right where Vegeta and Goku were during Frieza's return. Hell he could have actually been stronger than them both as well. Dunno why you brought up Copy Vegeta and all those others examples but again my previous statements apply.

 
So you're saying if Gohan kept up with his "regular" training(not type of training Goku and Vegeta were doing), he would've of been stronger than not only both SSB Goku and Vegeta, but possibly even Golden Frieza?
 
That's almost more of a stretch than someone claiming SSJ Ikari Trunks was stronger Merged Zamasu, which is actually wrong, since he's not even stronger than SSR Black, but that's not even most absurd statements i've seen(see: Trunks > Vegito argument).
 

Wait, how does Tagoma being weaker than Cell Games Gohan make Piccolo more pathetic? Since when were you under the impression Piccolo could hang with Super Saiyans? Once everyone started turning into SSJ's, Piccolo became fodder.. Piccolo being this weak after years can and does make sense. Namekians are not really on the list of elite fighters. Are you forgetting Nail was their strongest? How exactly do you think he fairs against the majority of what we've seen in the show now? Piccolo has long reached his peak, his training isn't improving at this point it's maintaining. Piccolo doesn't have access to Zenkai boosts so he hits his ceiling the same way Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, aka all non-saiyans have. In fact the only reason he's where he is now is because he's fused with two other Namekians.

 

Obviously he can't hang with SS3/SSG/SSB Saiyans, but he did keep up and tanked some damage from a half exhausted Final Form Frost and almost would have won if not for being poisoned. That same Frost in Third Form/Assault Form put up a good fight against SBG Goku until he went SSJ. If Piccolo was still weaker than Imperfect Cell, than it would have been a easy one-shot.


Edited by JDG973, 23 February 2017 - 09:30 PM.

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#574 ixSheng

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Posted Yesterday, 03:09 AM

 

 

That isn't what i meant.

 
I what i meant was that Mystic form was a permanent base upgrade condenses ALL of his latent future potential, SSJ and beyond, into his base form.
 
Gohan getting SSG/SSB through just regular training is highly unlikely, one form is locked behind a ritual, and the other requires very specific training from someone familiar with God Ki, like Whis. At most he would get something similar to Trunks's SSJ Ikari, which is not the real thing.

 

 

 
Where are you getting such information? Nothing has ever even come close to stating such a thing. It's one thing to say you speculate and that's your personal theory, it's another to flat out say that is what it is without a shred of evidence. I'm not saying Gohan would just train hard and attain SSG/SSJB, it's about him being strong enough to even get the go ahead from Whis to come train. So no at most he would have done just as I said.
 

 

How do you figure that? 

 
In your argument, if you lose Mystic, you lose it in its entirety. In neither the BoG movie or BoG arc of Super was Gohan forced to go SSJ 1, he was still regarded as the strongest fighter there, and he even looks exactly the same as he was in late Buu Arc.
 
 
I wasn't just "might", Gohan says "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what i have when at my best." I would think if someone said "at my best", they really mean the highest they are able to achieve between the past until currently, not also into the future.

 

 

 
I find it controversial however we don't know how much time passed after Buu Arc > BoG. What we do know is that Gohan is already portrayed as a complete nerd and drawn far more frail than his DBZ counterpart, so you're actually incorrect about him looking the same. I don't personally think his look tells the full story but he does get swatted aside like complete fodder when Beerus uses Buu to slap him away on his way to contest him in battle. Vegeta who is supposed to be far weaker than Gohan at this point actually takes over the show and goes on to get the flashy highlights/puts up a much better fight compared to who they're up against. There's no evidence that he was still regarded as the strongest of the pack at the time. Can you shoot me your source for Gohan's comment on Tagoma because earlier when you were claiming Piccolo said it, I remembered it as Gohan and when I went to verify I checked multiple sources and they all stated exactly as I quoted earlier "hiding his power and might be as strong as him at his best". Like I said before I don't believe he was talking about his former Mystic self during the Tagoma fight, I believe he meant his best as in what he currently could dish out. I'm willing to give you that it wasn't written well and could be interpretted both ways. 
 
 

 

Ginyu said he wasn't used to the body, yet a few seconds later, was immediately able use all of it's power. Jaco himself stated "He's utilizing all of that Tagoma fellow's strength", not just more of it. That's more than what he was able to bring out of Goku's body on Namek.
 
The thing about it is, both Jaco AND Piccolo have no idea just how strong Tagoma is. Jaco is surely not a credible source in determining whether Ginyu was able to bring out the full strength Tagoma was hiding. All they know for certain is he started exerting more energy than Tagoma was at the start. Ginyu is the only credible source in this matter since it's his technique AND he knows ultimately how he feels.

 

Agree to disagree on this point, but i don't think Gohan lost Mystic entirely. Yes Gohan, to a certain extent got weaker, but not THAT weak.

 
Think of for example Vegeta's state versus Hit in the manga. He wasn't able to use 1/10th of his SSB power in that fight, which made it appear "weaker" than SSG Goku. Just because he wasn't able to use his full SSB power doesn't mean he instantly went back into Buu Arc SS2 power level.

 

 

 
I never said or even implied anything on the level of Vegeta going back to the Buu Arc in DBS...? Vegeta already had fights prior to that Hit encounter. Futhermore, Vegeta is also the embodiment of hardwork in DB, Goku is hardwork + natural talent in their respective Saiyan race. Hit also had a surprise element to his powers, one that no other person we have seen in the DB universe had prior to his existence. It was a whole different kind of fight. Vegeta was unable to adapt which is all that really showed.
 

 

So you're saying if Gohan kept up with his "regular" training(not type of training Goku and Vegeta were doing), he would've of been stronger than not only both SSB Goku and Vegeta, but possibly even Golden Frieza?

 
That's almost more of a stretch than someone claiming SSJ Ikari Trunks was stronger Merged Zamasu, which is actually wrong, since he's not even stronger than SSR Black, but that's not even most absurd statements i've seen(see: Trunks > Vegito argument).

 

 

 
No, obviously once Goku attained SSG he surpassed Mystic Gohan(maybe even prior to it, we don't know). However, if Gohan had continued his training he could be exactly where Vegeta is now. Bypassing SSG and getting trained by Whis to attain SSB. 
 
 

 

Obviously he can't hang with SS3/SSG/SSB Saiyans, but he did keep up and tanked some damage from a half exhausted Final Form Frost and almost would have won if not for being poisoned. That same Frost in Third Form/Assault Form put up a good fight against SBG Goku until he went SSJ. If Piccolo was still weaker than Imperfect Cell, than it would have been a easy one-shot.
 
Manga and Anime disagree here. In the Manga Frost didn't bother wasting all too much time because Piccolo was simply running to drain his energy so Vegeta could clean up the tournament. Also, sorry, but I find nothing impressive about a guy almost beating someone who literally burned just about every bit of their stamina losing to SSJ1 in our current time. Sure within the parameters of the tournament he may have been robbed but in the grand sheme of things he lost to that guy despite him burning out like 90% of his stamina lol.. In the Anime he tanks a single piercing ki blast to the thigh,  then, a single punch and kick that have little to no conviction behind them. Frost thinks he wins just because he broke his Ki concentration, not even because of how hard he hits Piccolo lmao.. 

Edited by ixSheng, Yesterday, 08:05 PM.


#575 Kaidou

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Posted Yesterday, 05:05 PM


Edited by Kaidou, Yesterday, 05:05 PM.

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#576 Chillman

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Posted Yesterday, 05:34 PM

Imma call bullshit on that one
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#577 retroluffy13

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Posted Yesterday, 09:06 PM

Imma call bullshit on that one

would hae been cool if his heart blew up then instantly regenerated.


 this is a music video I made for a friend of mine.  give it a listen.  the visuals are pretty dope

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also some ear kandy
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when you love something..  and I mean. really love it.  you fight for it for as long as you can until you cant stand any longer.  then when its all said and done, walk away with a smile hoping you did right.




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