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[Discussion] Marineford / Summit Battle Arc


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#1 Red Opus

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 11:51 AM

Maybe it's because we saw WB's commanders too early but.... I look down on jozu now.....

I still love vista though....

#2 grandao0

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:16 AM


the idea that the WB pirates is the weakest among the Yonkou crews and WB's being the WSM balances that

 

respect is also key among the Yonkou and WB was a great man


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#3 Red Opus

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:22 AM

He was on Sky Island, at least up until a few days ago.
 
 
 
 

I have always proposed the idea that the WB pirates is the weakest among the Yonkou crews and WB's being the WSM balances that.


I'm starting to think they are, and it feels like BB has taken over that title lol, idk how strong the rest of his commanders got but if Burgess is any indication.....

#4 Lauri

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:38 AM

Dont u dare make fun of Ace :(

#5 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 07:37 AM

Ace was still in his progressing stage


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#6 Strobacaxi

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 08:53 AM

I say wait until Neko finds Marco. I'd wager next time we see the WB pirates they'll show themselves to be much more capable than we think, and then we'll all be like "damn ace was probably so much stronger than we originally thought"


Edited by Strobacaxi, 26 August 2016 - 08:55 AM.

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#7 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 09:12 AM

I say wait until Neko finds Marco. I'd wager next time we see the WB pirates they'll show themselves to be much more capable than we think, and then we'll all be like "damn ace was probably so much stronger than we originally thought"

 

Especially Jozu, his arm, especially his underarm, he can´t switch hands while masturbating after all...


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#8 Petite Fleur

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 03:31 PM

I say wait until Neko finds Marco. I'd wager next time we see the WB pirates they'll show themselves to be much more capable than we think, and then we'll all be like "damn ace was probably so much stronger than we originally thought"

He blocked the signature move from Aokiji, I already think he's the hella ballerest, and I put Jozu at about a peg lower than Doflamingo which is still really fucking strong.


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#9 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 09:31 PM

He blocked the signature move from Aokiji, I already think he's the hella ballerest, and I put Jozu at about a peg lower than Doflamingo which is still really fucking strong.

 

What´s the signature move of Aokiji?


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#10 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 11:30 PM

Still better than Luffy. If he's that ''weak'' then at least it shoves the portrayal logic in the bin so I can't complain LOL

 

 

Makes me think of Nadal. His left arm is like visibly and noticeably bulker than his right.

 

 

 

The Pheasant one that Ace blocked with Flame Mirror (hope I get the name right) when he was just rescued. It's signature-ish since it has the Admiral's epithet in it. That said Akainu didn't name his dog-shaped attack whereas Meigou (Hell Dog) doesn't look like any dog (it's super deadly though, poor WB's face). Kizaru still hasn't done any monkey attack (I want a Sun Wu Kong reference LOL) and it seems like his triple Japan's treasure-based techniques are his signature. Fuji has Fierce Tiger though.

 

 

 

 

Well then it's even more impressive since he dared to go at it right away after being injured...

 

 

 

 

Nearly 3 weeks.

 

That was really one of the points of his character. Other elites are already fully developed, Ace was one of the few characters outside the SHs who was supposed to progress to greatness, that was the entire reason behind the MF war in the first place. I do think, alone through the fruit, he was still overall stronger than Luffy now but G4 at least has him below it.

 

Yeah but signature move does not even remotely mean strongest move, that much we can say at this point.


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#11 Red Opus

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 12:02 AM

Makes me think of Nadal. His left arm is like visibly and noticeably bulker than his right.

 

it looks freaky almost......unhealthy even....ehh



#12 Fulmine

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 01:17 AM


That was really one of the points of his character. Other elites are already fully developed, Ace was one of the few characters outside the SHs who was supposed to progress to greatness, that was the entire reason behind the MF war in the first place. I do think, alone through the fruit, he was still overall stronger than Luffy now but G4 at least has him below it.

Well, yeah, that's my point. I didn't say he's already fully developed. My point is his progress's result up until his death should still be above Luffy, even now, otherwise his portrayal is out of the window (which just proves portrayal means nothing in some cases, which is what I have always said so Win-win for me LOL).


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#13 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 01:36 AM

Well, yeah, that's my point. I didn't say he's already fully developed. My point is his progress's result up until his death should still be above Luffy, even now, otherwise his portrayal is out of the window (which just proves portrayal means nothing in some cases, which is what I have always said so Win-win for me LOL).

 

That i disagree with. It was never truly about what Ace was but what he could become in the future, basically doing that what we know Luffy will do at the end of the series. That´s what the whole war was about.


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#14 Fulmine

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 01:42 AM

That i disagree with. It was never truly about what Ace was but what he could become in the future, basically doing that what we know Luffy will do at the end of the series. That´s what the whole war was about.

And he became that by being much weaker than what he's supposed to be at that point? What kind of power up must Oda give him then? Hyperbolic Time Chamber?


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#15 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 04:25 AM

And he became that by being much weaker than what he's supposed to be at that point? What kind of power up must Oda give him then? Hyperbolic Time Chamber?

 

How weak or strong was he supposed to be at that point?


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#16 capu

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 04:30 AM

and I put Jozu at about a peg lower than Doflamingo which is still really fucking strong.

Honestly i disagree. For me Jozu (with both arms, dunno how much that affected his fighting style) > than DD. Both might have haki but in MF war DDs strings did not do damage, DD might have not even wanted to, but since Diamond actually is the strongest thing there is in op (next to kairoseki) i doubt that it is easy to cut even with haki applied (much less if haki is used to strengthen it beforehand) and DD does not strike me as being a hakimaster.....

 

Still for me DD > Luffy, as could be seen in their encounter (total defeat of Luffy, who was unconcious, after taking on an injured DD)!

 

Concerning this chapter what happened to Urouge really catapults him in mid-upper SN lvl. I was totally surprised by that outcome. Granted i as of now i dont think that the Monk's enemy was best of the top commanders, but since we do not know the difference in power among the commanders (which is a definite imho) i would not be as hasty and say Urouge = Luffy lvl/Zorolvl (i honestly deem Sanji to be >= Urouge and soon after BM / Germa arc to be > Urouge). Thus i think that the defeated commander is actually the weakest or 2nd weakest member of the "sweet group". 

 

BM having sent Cracker vs Urouge before and now proclaiming that Cracker is enough to defeat Luffy (who known to her defeated DD) is a sign of Crackers power, who in turn was able to "swiftly" overcome (granted a weakened) Urouge! Consequently i see no way that Luffy is actually winning this fight. Noone can tell me that a yonkou, who is "all" about information, as BM, cannot adequately judge a shichibukais (much less one that fought as MFwar) power! If she assumes Cracker to be enough than imo is a direct hint that Cracker>DD powerwise and as i said earlier since DD still is > Luffy imo that should mean that even with Nami as back up (very vague, since Bruleé is still there) Luffy cannot win vs Cracker as of yet.

 

Thus that Urouge actually lost is not something that does not entirely speak agianst him but rather (for he was able to escape) for his ability as a leader  to validate the situation correctly , unlike our famous SH, who would not give a damn about loosing / taking on enemies he is not yet able to defeat. 

 

Sadly we do not know who the others (Kidd, Capone etc) went up against, thus it makes it all the more difficult to compare.....

 

Quick question

Did Oda say anything about the SN post TS in the SBS?


Edited by capu, 27 August 2016 - 04:32 AM.

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#17 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 04:42 AM

Honestly i disagree. For me Jozu (with both arms, dunno how much that affected his fighting style) > than DD. Both might have haki but in MF war DDs strings did not do damage, DD might have not even wanted to, but since Diamond actually is the strongest thing there is in op (next to kairoseki) i doubt that it is easy to cut even with haki applied (much less if haki is used to strengthen it beforehand) and DD does not strike me as being a hakimaster.....

 

Still for me DD > Luffy, as could be seen in their encounter (total defeat of Luffy, who was unconcious, after taking on an injured DD)!

 

Concerning this chapter what happened to Urouge really catapults him in mid-upper SN lvl. I was totally surprised by that outcome. Granted i as of now i dont think that the Monk's enemy was best of the top commanders, but since we do not know the difference in power among the commanders (which is a definite imho) i would not be as hasty and say Urouge = Luffy lvl/Zorolvl (i honestly deem Sanji to be >= Urouge and soon after BM / Germa arc to be > Urouge). Thus i think that the defeated commander is actually the weakest or 2nd weakest member of the "sweet group". 

 

BM having sent Cracker vs Urouge before and now proclaiming that Cracker is enough to defeat Luffy (who known to her defeated DD) is a sign of Crackers power, who in turn was able to "swiftly" overcome (granted a weakened) Urouge! Consequently i see no way that Luffy is actually winning this fight. Noone can tell me that a yonkou, who is "all" about information, as BM, cannot adequately judge a shichibukais (much less one that fought as MFwar) power! If she assumes Cracker to be enough than imo is a direct hint that Cracker>DD powerwise and as i said earlier since DD still is > Luffy imo that should mean that even with Nami as back up (very vague, since Bruleé is still there) Luffy cannot win vs Cracker as of yet.

 

Thus that Urouge actually lost is not something that does not entirely speak agianst him but rather (for he was able to escape) for his ability as a leader  to validate the situation correctly , unlike our famous SH, who would not give a damn about loosing / taking on enemies he is not yet able to defeat. 

 

Sadly we do not know who the others (Kidd, Capone etc) went up against, thus it makes it all the more difficult to compare.....

 

Quick question

Did Oda say anything about the SN post TS in the SBS?

 

Neither Zoro not Fujitora were able to cut DD´s strings. DD in the war was trolling and enjoying the chaos of the battlefield, making the name of Joker proud. Playing around with someone of the caliber of Jozu clearly shows superiority, not to forget Jozu was not even completely diamond, so he still could have used his strings to cut Jozu, just as he could have imbued his strings with CoA and decapitated Croc on the spot.

 

DD´s overall level is clearly still above Luffy, no question. Guy can fly, has immense endurance, a deadly ability, awakening, CoC, can do first aid and so forth, G4 on the other hand is different but until Luffy can control it completely and does not have its drawbacks, it´s not something which Luffy overall can be judged by.


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#18 capu

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 06:44 AM

Playing around with someone of the caliber of Jozu clearly shows superiority, not to forget Jozu was not even completely diamond,

 

so he still could have used his strings to cut Jozu,

 

just as he could have imbued his strings with CoA and decapitated Croc on the spot.

And? even without his complete diamond form DD did NOT do damage vs Jozu! That clearly speaks for Jozu > DD than the other way around!

 

And u claim that he could not based on? His joking character? For even when he "took out" Moria he was enjoying himself, so u mean to say whenever he enjoys himself he aint serious? Well thats news for me.

 

Croc is known to be logia! DD being able to cut a logia (without doing damage!) is nothing to be proud of....so again what u wanna say?

Jozu on the other hand was capable to do damage (with unnamed attacks if he has named ones?) to both Aokji AND Croc! If u compare how the latter faired against DD and against Jozu, Jozu has the better image that comes out, since Jozu actually DID cause damage!

 

The problem i may have (and why i may be absolutely wrong in my comparison) is that Oda has not been consistent and thorough in his explanations when talking about the durability of materials in OP. if diamond (as the strongest "natural" material on earth) has indeed the same properties in opworld as in ours than i believe the fruit itself to be highly underestimated by most in generel, but as i said i could be the one absolutely misinterpreting Odas stand on diamond in op. If the latter is be the case i could agree with ur powerrelation, but since i dont believe that Oda would actually not give diamond the "credit" it deserves, i still as of now think Jozu (who also presented better haki skills at the war) > DD.



#19 ShinmenTakezo

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 07:13 AM

And? even without his complete diamond form DD did NOT do damage vs Jozu! That clearly speaks for Jozu > DD than the other way around!

 

And u claim that he could not based on? His joking character? For even when he "took out" Moria he was enjoying himself, so u mean to say whenever he enjoys himself he aint serious? Well thats news for me.

 

Croc is known to be logia! DD being able to cut a logia (without doing damage!) is nothing to be proud of....so again what u wanna say?

Jozu on the other hand was capable to do damage (with unnamed attacks if he has named ones?) to both Aokji AND Croc! If u compare how the latter faired against DD and against Jozu, Jozu has the better image that comes out, since Jozu actually DID cause damage!

 

The problem i may have (and why i may be absolutely wrong in my comparison) is that Oda has not been consistent and thorough in his explanations when talking about the durability of materials in OP. if diamond (as the strongest "natural" material on earth) has indeed the same properties in opworld as in ours than i believe the fruit itself to be highly underestimated by most in generel, but as i said i could be the one absolutely misinterpreting Odas stand on diamond in op. If the latter is be the case i could agree with ur powerrelation, but since i dont believe that Oda would actually not give diamond the "credit" it deserves, i still as of now think Jozu (who also presented better haki skills at the war) > DD.

 

Not trying is not the same as not trying or do you see anything that suggests that. It´s like saying DD controlling the VAs did not mean anything because he did not damage them when he was just casually playing around which is what he did in the war, he could not contain his excitement aobut being in the middle of a clash that decides the world´s future.

 

Dude, DD already hsowed he can easily cut someone who is logia, he can imbue his strings with Haki, as seen with Smoker.. Jsut like with Jozu, he never tried to kill Croc, it´s a conscious decision not to try it, he had no interest in harming him. It was a gesture of jealousy because Croc helped WB Pirates.

He said Brilliant Punk against Croc and could not even take out the guy who base Luffy beat.

 

Not really. Oda has established 3 main aspects to fighting skill within OP: Devil fruit or weapon, physical capabilities and now Haki. Each of them, if trained to the extreme, can make you stand out and strong. For example, just like Haki gives you the possibility to hit the real body of Logia users, it also gives you the ability to hit the real body of Paramecia users. Luffy´s rubber for example is not really relevant anymore if he is hit with Haki, prerequisite is if Luffy uses Haki as well, the other guy´s Haki has to be better or greater, whatever you wanan call it.


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#20 Hurley Pirates

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 08:51 AM

Lol did I just read Jozu is Stronger then DD? In what world? Thats insane logic. DD is the most complete fighter we've seen in OP to date. And jozu was stopped in his tracks by DD when attacking Croc. No problem. Now I doubt DD can control jozu's movements easily but he has a bevy of skills and attacks that Jozu as we know him right now can't truly defend against. I mean his best bet is to turn into a diamond and shell up. but that won't win him anything in a battle.

 

I also agree that DD > Luffy but G4 give Luffy the necessary power and sheer force needed to take DD out even at full strength. Question is can DD outlast G4 if he's fully healthy and Luffy receives no help? Imo yes he can but I'd like to see G4 a few more times before i can confidently proclaim that.


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