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Coco vs Askin


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#1 ddboy102

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:29 AM

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Rules: Coco is limited to his regal Mamaoth arc strength.


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#2 Red Opus

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:09 PM

limited coco to not even 1/5th of his actual ability, I don't see how he could get past death dealing. Askin wins I guess.



#3 Tale

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:58 PM

Coco might conceivably have a chance against Askin even when limited to this extent.

 

I've reread Askin's fight to refresh my memory, and as far as I can see, the only criterion for Deathdealing is how lethal a thing is. If I'm not wrong, and assuming Askin blabs about his ability (which he has always done in his fights), this leaves Coco with some possibilities: 

  • He can expose Askin to multiple poisons in sequence, tricking him into raising the lethal dose for each, while targeting him with their combination. He's definitely smart enough for a strategy like this (see Livebearer arc) and his knowledge of chemistry/biology had already received ample demonstration before the Regal Mammoth arc ended. 1, 2. The only problem I see with this suggestion is that Coco hasn't displayed such a poison before the end of the RG arc.
  • He can non-lethal nerve toxins to disable Askin. 1, 2. Given that Askin has no inhuman resistances to the effects of non-lethal substances, he should be easier for Coco to put down than the Heavycliffs, which were paralyzed instantly.
  • If all else fails, he can use knocking. 

Also, it makes sense to restrict Coco to this level. His next real fight after Regal Mammoth is against the 4 Beast, and by then he would probably be too fast and too strong for Askin, in addition to having Poison Virus (which would probably kill Askin before he used his Vollstandig) and one Mold Spear.


Edited by Tale, 18 March 2017 - 06:06 PM.


#4 ddboy102

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:18 PM


I don't see how he could get past death dealing. Askin wins I guess.

 

Why Not? Coco has over 500 different types of poisons 

 

In-addition he can even create new poison

 

such as aqua regina.

 

He also has

 

- poison dolls

- life erase

- poison sword

- knocking

- precog


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#5 Red Opus

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 08:03 PM

Coco might conceivably have a chance against Askin even when limited to this extent.

 

I've reread Askin's fight to refresh my memory, and as far as I can see, the only criterion for Deathdealing is how lethal a thing is. If I'm not wrong, and assuming Askin blabs about his ability (which he has always done in his fights), this leaves Coco with some possibilities: 

  • He can expose Askin to multiple poisons in sequence, tricking him into raising the lethal dose for each, while targeting him with their combination. He's definitely smart enough for a strategy like this (see Livebearer arc) and his knowledge of chemistry/biology had already received ample demonstration before the Regal Mammoth arc ended. 1, 2. The only problem I see with this suggestion is that Coco hasn't displayed such a poison before the end of the RG arc.
  • He can non-lethal nerve toxins to disable Askin. 1, 2. Given that Askin has no inhuman resistances to the effects of non-lethal substances, he should be easier for Coco to put down than the Heavycliffs, which were paralyzed instantly.
  • If all else fails, he can use knocking. 

Also, it makes sense to restrict Coco to this level. His next real fight after Regal Mammoth is against the 4 Beast, and by then he would probably be too fast and too strong for Askin, in addition to having Poison Virus (which would probably kill Askin before he used his Vollstandig) and one Mold Spear.

 

-I could see that, I don't however know if askin ever had to deal with changing multiple lethal doses or even if he can.

 

-As far as I know of askin's ability it matters not if what he ingests is lethal or not, i.e the blood thing with oetsu

 

-Yeah he'd probably fall to knocking



#6 Fulmine

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 11:06 PM

Askin never demonstrates any ability to resist poison. By virtue of being superhuman and the owner of such ability, I don't doubt he can resist some but we have no idea to what extent...OMBF's rules dictate that if one hasn't done it one doesn't get benefit of the doubt (which kinda mean absence of evidence is evidence of absence LOL) unless debater can make a strong case for it. So far he only deals with blood and reiatsu, which are not poisonous per se (or if we wants to be technical, that the dose makes the poison, neither of those can kill with very small dose). To beat Askin, all you have to do is give him something that kills him instantly or at least before he consumes enough for his Schrift to take effect. Can Coco's poison do that?

Or, if you are vastly superior in base stats, you can just physically kill him (can he even deathdeal punches and kicks :rly:?). Though he survived Nimaiya's slash so I think even his base stats are good.

 

 


He can expose Askin to multiple poisons in sequence, tricking him into raising the lethal dose for each, while targeting him with their combination. He's definitely smart enough for a strategy like this (see Livebearer arc) and his knowledge of chemistry/biology had already received ample demonstration before the Regal Mammoth arc ended. 1, 2. The only problem I see with this suggestion is that Coco hasn't displayed such a poison before the end of the RG arc.

Askin's Vollstandig can deal with large amount of different poison. And is combination to be treated as a new poison or just...well, a combination? Because if Askin already raises the lethal dose for the components then even the combination is useless if the total is not more than the sum of its parts.

 

 


He can non-lethal nerve toxins to disable Askin. 1, 2. Given that Askin has no inhuman resistances to the effects of non-lethal substances, he should be easier for Coco to put down than the Heavycliffs, which were paralyzed instantly.

Actually the non-lethal part isn't important. It's not like blood is lethal haha.


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#7 Damanos

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:00 AM

Or, if you are vastly superior in base stats, you can just physically kill him (can he even deathdeal punches and kicks :rly:?).

 

Yeah, he was initially hurt by Yushiro's melee hits and then became immune. 

 

Spoiler

 

Also I don't think anybody has mentioned yet, but as soon as he analyzes the lethal dose of something he heals from the wounds it dealt him.  Which makes no sense, but Bleach.

 

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#8 Tale

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:21 AM

One thing I'm not clear on is what enables Askin's Deathdealing. Consuming "lots" of the element is pretty vague. Is it "lots" relative to the element's lethal dose or just an objective quantity? If it's the latter, Coco will have a much easier time since his poisons can work in small quantities.

 

 


-As far as I know of askin's ability it matters not if what he ingests is lethal or not, i.e the blood thing with oetsu

 

 


Actually the non-lethal part isn't important. It's not like blood is lethal haha.

 

What I meant that his immunity wouldn't deal with the nerve toxins if his ability is geared towards stopping things from killing or directly damaging him. I could have the wrong impression about his immunity, though, since it seems easy to argue he acquires complete immunity to elements.

 

 


Askin's Vollstandig can deal with large amount of different poison. And is combination to be treated as a new poison or just...well, a combination? Because if Askin already raises the lethal dose for the components then even the combination is useless if the total is not more than the sum of its parts.

 

This was more a hypothetical for me. I'm confident there's a combinations of chemicals out there that create a poison more lethal than it's individual components, but I have don't have the background knowledge to prove that. xD

 


Yeah, he was initially hurt by Yushiro's melee hits and then became immune.

 

In that case, though, he became immune to Yushiro's reiatsu, which is arguably a bit different from becoming immune to Coco's physical attacks. Coco doesn't have a reiatsu equivalent and his physical attacks won't inject a reiatsu equivalent into Askin. Askin will have to ingest something else (parts of Coco  :mellow:), and I don't see how he can do that.


Edited by Tale, 19 March 2017 - 07:32 AM.


#9 ddboy102

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 09:40 AM

gorument cells would equal to reiastu


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#10 Red Opus

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:33 PM

gorument cells would equal to reiastu

 

usually that would be the case but as far as my memory goes we don't really have a scale for gourmet cells



#11 Damanos

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:05 PM

In that case, though, he became immune to Yushiro's reiatsu, which is arguably a bit different from becoming immune to Coco's physical attacks. Coco doesn't have a reiatsu equivalent and his physical attacks won't inject a reiatsu equivalent into Askin. Askin will have to ingest something else (parts of Coco  :mellow:), and I don't see how he can do that.

 

Wouldn't that be part of the standard between series equalization?  Like we'd assume the Yami Yami no Mi works on other powers, or genjutsu works on people without chakra, ect. 


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#12 Tale

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:17 PM

Wouldn't that be part of the standard between series equalization?  Like we'd assume the Yami Yami no Mi works on other powers, or genjutsu works on people without chakra, ect. 

 

I don't see why Gourmet Cells should be made equivalent to reiatsu and I don't think the possible equivalency is even relevant for this debate.

1. Reiatsu is pervasive in Bleach, in that every battle and every technique (as far as I know with my limited Bleach reading), is a clash of reiatsu. Attacking Askin would expose him to reiatsu, and given that reiatsu is spiritual, I guess it permeates his body and satisfies his criterion for consuming the element. Gourmet Cells are physical objects, and as far as we know, Askin has to eat or drink physical things (like blood). Coco isn't going to be throwing Gourmet Cells at Askin, so he's not going to give him that opportunity, and taking a bite of Coco will probably kill Askin in any case, since his body contains a ton of poisons. 

2. Eating enough of Coco's Gourmet Cells arguably won't even give him immunity to Coco's physical attacks or his poisons, because Coco's Gourmet Cells are not, as far as we know, constitutive of the physical force or the poisons he can produce. The Gourmet Cells give him stronger muscles and let his body turn things (such as food and waste products) into poisons (such as Hell Poison). Being able to raise the lethal dosage of the Gourmet Cells, specifically, wouldn't make Askin immune to the other kinds of things and forces they enable Coco to produce through organic processes, as those other things have different lethal dosages and Gourmet Cells aren't a component of them. In Bleach, if I'm right in Reiatsu being in some way constitutive of attacks and abilities, then it's pretty easy for Askin to gain immunity to everything a character can do. 



#13 Damanos

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:40 PM

I don't see why Gourmet Cells should be made equivalent to reiatsu and I don't think the possible equivalency is even relevant for this debate.

1. Reiatsu is pervasive in Bleach, in that every battle and every technique (as far as I know with my limited Bleach reading), is a clash of reiatsu. Attacking Askin would expose him to reiatsu, and given that reiatsu is spiritual, I guess it permeates his body and satisfies his criterion for consuming the element. Gourmet Cells are physical objects, and as far as we know, Askin has to eat or drink physical things (like blood). Coco isn't going to be throwing Gourmet Cells at Askin, so he's not going to give him that opportunity, and taking a bite of Coco will probably kill Askin in any case, since his body contains a ton of poisons. 

2. Eating enough of Coco's Gourmet Cells arguably won't even give him immunity to Coco's physical attacks or his poisons, because Coco's Gourmet Cells are not, as far as we know, constitutive of the physical force or the poisons he can produce. The Gourmet Cells give him stronger muscles and let his body turn things (such as food and waste products) into poisons (such as Hell Poison). Being able to raise the lethal dosage of the Gourmet Cells, specifically, wouldn't make Askin immune to the other kinds of things and forces they enable Coco to produce through organic processes, as those other things have different lethal dosages and Gourmet Cells aren't a component of them. In Bleach, if I'm right in Reiatsu being in some way constitutive of attacks and abilities, then it's pretty easy for Askin to gain immunity to everything a character can do. 

 

I'm not saying that gourmet cells should be considered to be equivalent to reiatsu, I'm saying that I seem to remember we generally considered in a match like this that out of universe fighters possess reiatsu for reiatsu related abilities to work on, Haki to be able to touch a Logia's real body, or chakra to be drained/genjutsu'd, ect. 


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#14 Fulmine

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:03 PM


Consuming "lots" of the element is pretty vague. Is it "lots" relative to the element's lethal dose or just an objective quantity? If it's the latter, Coco will have a much easier time since his poisons can work in small quantities.


What I meant that his immunity wouldn't deal with the nerve toxins if his ability is geared towards stopping things from killing or directly damaging him. I could have the wrong impression about his immunity, though, since it seems easy to argue he acquires complete immunity to elements.

The latter for both. Otherwise Grimmjow couldn't kill him. It's also clear once he had immunity, Yoruichi and Yuushiro couldn't do crap. Not even a scratch. Again, blood isn't lethal per se and he drank only a huge gulp of blood (which belongs to him in the first place...) which I don't think would kill people in anyway. The best I have done is consuming about 400ml chicken blood (It's part of a unique food dish in my country) and it's delicious. nothing happened to me, haha...

 

 


Yeah, he was initially hurt by Yushiro's melee hits and then became immune.


In that case, though, he became immune to Yushiro's reiatsu, which is arguably a bit different from becoming immune to Coco's physical attacks. Coco doesn't have a reiatsu equivalent and his physical attacks won't inject a reiatsu equivalent into Askin. Askin will have to ingest something else (parts of Coco :mellow:), and I don't see how he can do that.

Wouldn't that be part of the standard between series equalization?  Like we'd assume the Yami Yami no Mi works on other powers, or genjutsu works on people without chakra, ect. 

I shared Tale's opinion above hence my question but if the OMBF has such equivalent rules then fair enough. I know we do consider reiatsu=chakra=etc. but I thought only for offensive purpose, to make the fight more even because one side can harm the other or one side can retain his strongest weapon.


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#15 Tale

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:43 PM

I'm not saying that gourmet cells should be considered to be equivalent to reiatsu, I'm saying that I seem to remember we generally considered in a match like this that out of universe fighters possess reiatsu for reiatsu related abilities to work on, Haki to be able to touch a Logia's real body, or chakra to be drained/genjutsu'd, ect.

 

That was the convention, yes, but we knew it could cause problems and so avoided fights like, say, Itachi vs Zoro, because giving Zoro chakra so that genjutsu can work on him doesn't mean he can do anything about it.

This match-up has a similar problem whether or not we assume that Coco has reiatsu, which is that if we assume he has it, he has as many attacks as it takes for Askin to satisfy his criterion (possibly one, though I don't agree with that) and if we don't, he has 15 litres worth of varied attacks. 

 

Ruling in either favour seems a bit arbitrary to me. :shrug:

(So I guess we can debate both scenarios?)






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